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Percival Merewether

Boarding + 'Determined Defender' suggestion

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well, what we should be getting is vastly reduced accuracy when shooting and vastly reduced effectiveness while repairing if the ship sails more than battle sails. No need a magical buff.

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Yea so I can magically grow back masts several times in battle, repair my ship like new, revive dead crew members with rum....but yea boarding a demasted ship is unrealistic..

 

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32 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Yea so I can magically grow back masts several times in battle, repair my ship like new, revive dead crew members with rum....but yea boarding a demasted ship is unrealistic..

 

I do not see the relationship between having masts and being boarded. In game the only difference having masts and sails makes is that you can keep your speed above the 3.5kts required to board. In reality boarding could probably have been done at higher speeds as long as the relative speeds were similar. But having no masts does not make the defender less determined and in fact would probably free up more crew to defend against boarding as they would not need to tend sails, assuming of course that they did not lose too many crew in the demasting.

If you have demasted a ship you should have plenty of time to decrew him to make DD ineffective.

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Curiously enough, in his 1782 treatise on the subject of naval tactics, John Clerk sorely neglects the very effective tactic of ramming your bow into another ship under full sail in order to push them windward and get them down to the 2kts required to board. One would think he would have dedicated half the book to that, and the other half to the art of mast-sniping. It makes you wonder, "did he even sail?"

It seems to me that DD is silly, but no sillier than the rest of the boarding mechanics. If there are going to be magic missiles in the game, why not have magic shield spells to counter them?

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4 hours ago, Archaos said:

I do not see the relationship between having masts and being boarded. In game the only difference having masts and sails makes is that you can keep your speed above the 3.5kts required to board. In reality boarding could probably have been done at higher speeds as long as the relative speeds were similar. But having no masts does not make the defender less determined and in fact would probably free up more crew to defend against boarding as they would not need to tend sails, assuming of course that they did not lose too many crew in the demasting.

If you have demasted a ship you should have plenty of time to decrew him to make DD ineffective.

When you demast a ship the crew goes into shock, disorganization, and screams loudly, maybe this could open a 1 minute window to make determined defender ineffective? After the initial shock window, perhaps you are right and crew could (in theory) be more determined. 

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6 hours ago, Archaos said:

In reality boarding could probably have been done at higher speeds as long as the relative speeds were similar.

Out of curiosity: could any historically versed user confirm this?

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2 hours ago, Palatinose said:

Out of curiosity: could any historically versed user confirm this?

No they couldn't. 

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2 hours ago, Palatinose said:

Out of curiosity: could any historically versed user confirm this?

A better historian than I might correct me on this, but I sincerely doubt there are any accounts of boarding that include the speeds of the ships. 18th century ships were not equipped with the precision speedometers we are accustomed to in Naval Action. They had chip logs, which were pieces of wood cast overboard and attached lines with knots tied at regular intervals. A sailor would count the knots that were payed out over a period of time accounted by use of a sandglass.

Needless to say, this involved process would only be accurate at all if the ship were kept on course for the duration, and would be impractical to use in a pitched battle while maneuvering to board an enemy. Additionally, the crew might have had other priorities than determining their speed at the time.

We can infer that grappling was accomplished at a variety of speeds though. The first and most obvious inference is that if bringing the enemies speed down was a challenge that boarders had to overcome, there would be some account of it, and of the techniques used to reduce an enemies speed to a point where boarding would be possible.

There are also accounts such as the 1779 battle of the HMS Serapis and USS Bonhomme Richard, in which Captain John Paul Jones tethered his ship to Serapis as a counter to the smaller ship's superior maneuverability and gunpower. If he had to reduce the Serapis to 2 knots before lashing the ships together, then lashing the ships together would not be an effective way to reduce her maneuverability, since it would be a moot point if he had to effectively reduce her maneuverability in order to reduce her maneuverability.

Further, in 1799, the USS Chesapeake was heeling enough that she could only hit the rigging of the Shannon, when she lost maneuverability and became entangled with the other ship, and was subsequently boarded. The only way she would be heeling that much is if she was under enough sail to be going more than 2 knots.

 

Edited by Juan Navarre
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Only if they 'pushed' the enemy ship into the wind, trolololol. A lot of the combat in the game is a very poor representation of what actually transpired in the 18th century.

Edited by Le Raf Boom

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Historical accounts aside, I can't think of any mechanism that would prevent ships with similar velocities from grappling because of their speed through the water.

The leeward ship would presumably be able to cast grappling hooks from further away due to height advantage of the increased heel. Other than that, what else would STW or SOG affect with regard to casting grappling hooks? 

Edited by Juan Navarre
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2 hours ago, Palatinose said:

Out of curiosity: could any historically versed user confirm this?

I do not know if that was the case historically, but I do know that it is easy to transfer people across if both ships have matched speeds. As part of the lifeboat coxswain certificate we had to match speeds between two lifeboats to transfer an injured person across. I have also done a cargo transfer of 20 tonne lifts from my vessel to a pipelaying barge that was under tow doing 6 knots through the Singapore straits. Modern navy ships also regularly replenish at sea while still maintaining a good speed. So I could easily imaging two sailing ships where the faster one comes alongside matches speed and grapples, once they are grappled together they will both be at same speed and boarding is not dependent on what speed they are doing.

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3 hours ago, Juan Navarre said:

Further, in 1799, the USS Chesapeake was heeling enough that she could only hit the rigging of the Shannon, when she lost maneuverability and became entangled with the other ship, and was subsequently boarded. The only way she would be heeling that much is if she was under enough sail to be going more than 2 knots.

 

You are misremembering here.

Shannon was to leeward in the engagement. Her fire shot away Chesapeake's headsails, causing her to luff up and become unmanageable. Then boarding began, necessarily with the two ships essentially stationary.

As for Serapis vs Bonhomme Richard, the British ship's jibboom became tangled in the American's mizzen shrouds (the textbook method for grappling an opponent, on the part of Cpt. Jones), but the boom broke. So Serapis may have had a bit of way on. After that, Serapis' anchor became afoul of her enemy's sides. But it was dusk, with a land breeze on the east coast of Britain. Probably not that windy.

As mentioned above, the preferred method of boarding an opponent was letting him ram you in the shrouds. It went without saying that this was not advisable at 10 knots. Battles were just fought at slower speeds in reality.

 

Quote

Historical accounts aside, I can't think of any mechanism that would prevent ships with similar velocities from grappling because of their speed through the water.

The momentum of the ships moving apart, snapping the grapples like spaghetti noodles. A line strong enough to withstand that kind of force cannot be thrown because it is too heavy.

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22 minutes ago, maturin said:

You are misremembering here.

Shannon was to leeward in the engagement. Her fire shot away Chesapeake's headsails, causing her to luff up and become unmanageable. Then boarding began, necessarily with the two ships essentially stationary.

As for Serapis vs Bonhomme Richard, the British ship's jibboom became tangled in the American's mizzen shrouds (the textbook method for grappling an opponent, on the part of Cpt. Jones), but the boom broke. So Serapis may have had a bit of way on. After that, Serapis' anchor became afoul of her enemy's sides. But it was dusk, with a land breeze on the east coast of Britain. Probably not that windy.

As mentioned above, the preferred method of boarding an opponent was letting him ram you in the shrouds. It went without saying that this was not advisable at 10 knots. Battles were just fought at slower speeds in reality.

 

The momentum of the ships moving apart, snapping the grapples like spaghetti noodles. A line strong enough to withstand that kind of force cannot be thrown because it is too heavy.

I stand corrected.

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:54 PM, Nick the cursed said:

5C955EDBFC143F96D2CFD5AA5EAA50406C239D25

Hummm... I had to give up the fight because he had Determinated Perks... After some hard work against a Frigate...

Good fight, btw...

To a degree I would agree DD gave me an advantage, equally I agree you worked hard to get into a position where you could board, I do think that a single still picture does not reflect how the battle actually progressed.

My first thought was 'expletive' It's Nick the Cursed! Many have heard of you, few have heard of Sir Lancelot Holland :D  so from a morale perspective you were already ahead, it was also clear you had already been in a fight. Despite low crew numbers and the loss of 25% of my sails I was still able to manoeuvre fairly well and where I could managed to get a few good broadsides into your Snow. Indeed it is a testament to the Snow and your ability having lost 35% of your own sails that you got close enough to attempt to board.   

To be honest it was going to be anybody's fight, either of us could have won even at the point where the decision was made to disengage and yes it was a good fight, it's rare that i get into a 1v1 fight, usually I get on the wrong side of a  high numbers fight, all that really taught me was that to win you need numbers, which is sad for so many reasons. The battle ended as so many battles in this age ended, with both of us believing we could have won, that the mutual decision to disengage, repair, and go our separate ways was the right one, made with honour by both sides.

Should DD be removed, no I don't think it should, I do think though it should be more balanced maybe linked to morale and the condition of the opposing ships which may be a more reasonable solution. 

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Its great to read the different views on the perk itself, but the truth is it's very demoralizing to work so hard on outmaneuvering a ship (in most cases, much bigger) open its stern, perform accurate stern rakes with grape and cut swaths in the crew,  deplenish the crew hit boxes (or as far as your 6lb guns could) sail well enough to put yourself in a position to board, just to see those cursed yellow letters. My most recent experience was being tagged by a bucentaure when I was in a snow, within the first half hour I had it's crew down to 230, to my 160. After noticing grape was no longer effective along the stern I did what I could to inflict physical damage on the ship, however being a realist I surmised that broadside to broadside a snow is no match for this 2nd rate, even though it de-crewed. After another half hour of close quarters raking with both grape and ball the crew was down to around 190. With 20 minutes left in the battle I was ready for my patience and hard work to pay off, and while the bucentaure was in irons I laid my ship along the stern with 100 boarding prep.  What happens next is predictable. I saw the prompt and proceeded to smash my head into the desk. An hour long engagement, almost entirely one sided, ended by a passive perk that is entirely overpowered. The most reasonable solution I can think of is to make the perk morale based. I find it hard to believe that a ship that lost over 80 percent of it's crew  and was for lack of a better word, handled in combat, could still have the "determination" to ward off all boarding attempts made, especially those from the stern where the glass windows would theoretically be smashed by the consecutive rakes. I don't hate the concept to prevent rage boarding, and making the perk morale based can not only prevent instaboarding in battles, but also reward players that put so much effort into de-crewing and out-sailing larger ships. 

Thank you for reading,

Cheers

Edited by The Last Templar
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What about if determined defender  will give you a time advantage only. Eg. You can't be boarded within 30secs if your crew is more than 30 percent of your opponent in change of insta boarding. Better organised defense of the ship,  removing grapple hooks etc. This would give a defender few more options and pretty easy to implement ?

 

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