Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Chain shot limitations - advanced warning

Recommended Posts

Chains should have a purpose and be always better vs rigging than mast sniping.

Mast sniping should be a valid thing to do. Not a 5 minute "I win" but should have a purpose.

1st rates should not be able to simply wreck 5th rates rigging as this will efficiently remove 5th rates from the end game.

Many repair kits forced devs to increase cannon damage. High rake damage forced them to add rum. High mast damage forced them to add rig repairs, today also sail damage is very high.

Maneuvering your ship smartly, including all the factors related to it, should be more important than repair kits.  Positioning your ship correctly all the time can and will take time especially when fighting vs bigger fleet. You cannot be aggressive in these situations. Hard to be skilled when others simply repair their ship all the time.

When you are ganked, it is hard to be so aggressive that you are able to dps harder than they are able to repair. When we had only 1+1 repair kits, your changes to fight yourself out from these battle was easier. I mean when the gank fleet was not 100% retarded.

It is more difficult to play smart with rigging damage as everyone can do it continuously and reliable. Sails and masts are simply there. High rigging damage without repair kits would be very hard for ganked fleets (Notice, not gank but ganked). Rigging damage should be set so that it gives room for smaller fleets.

I said numerous times already. Decrease sail damage and repair kits. This patch will be something different but I hope it will be able to achieve the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also this might have an inpact on witch ships will be used. When I started about 8 month ago, we sailed more 5 rates, now bigger ships. I like the take my Endymion out, when er go hunting 2-4 players. They in generally sail in Bellonas. So what is my role. Get them Down in sails so the big guys can have a fight. Thats a tactical choise, that most likely will be gone if chain are limited to much. 

I do think it will be a lose if we all end up in the same ship. Mast sniping have almost removed 5 rate ships in pvp

Edited by staun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lars Kjaer said:

@admin I believe my statement on the hard caps are correct; could you confirm or deny these hard caps?

Turning speed: -25%

Sail hp: +30%

Armor hp: +30%

Hull thickness: +30%

Gun reload: -30%

Gun dispersion: -30%

speed: 15,5 kn.

If the numbers are correct then every player can use this website for upgrade infos and try jugling the different knowledges and upgrades on a 4/5 or 5/5 ship and see if they are still "ignorant" enough to believe that skill has anything to do with this game anymore.

http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Please tell me how to get a 30% thickness ship. You have a distorted view of how the game works. Just because there is a stat cap doesn't mean it is realistically obtainable or viable. 

You certainly can't have them all capped. 4/5 and 5/5 ships are extremely rare. They require dozens of previously crafted ships and even then it is a toss up. Maybe 15% of players sail 4/5 ships and I haven't even seen a 5/5 ship in game.

The game has come a long way from impenetrable 1st rates with max repair. Thickness and repair have both been balanced. Speed has been balanced. Turn rates have been balanced. Dismasting is no longer broken.There is not a current broken meta in the game. I think the devs have done a good job of reworking systems in the game so far.

pls bring back 15kn 1st rates OMEGALUL

Edited by RedNeckMilkMan
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should have limited amo . It depends how much my/your ship can carry on or how much do you want to take on board . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well after losing several ships recently due to 6th rates just chain chain til bigger friends catch me i kinda welcome a limit to chain as long as repairs are adjusted accordingly.( yes i tried slowing to board etc but guess need to get gud and practice mast sniping 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hurra!

Now chains will get a limited tactical option like "double charge" and "double ball" and not the stupid bumbum-shooting of ganker fleets.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Please tell me how to get a 30% thickness ship. You have a distorted view of how the game works. Just because there is a stat cap doesn't mean it is realistically obtainable or viable. 

You certainly can't have them all capped. 4/5 and 5/5 ships are extremely rare. They require dozens of previously crafted ships and even then it is a toss up. Maybe 15% of players sail 4/5 ships and I haven't even seen a 5/5 ship in game.

The game has come a long way from impenetrable 1st rates with max repair. Thickness and repair have both been balanced. Speed has been balanced. Turn rates have been balanced. Dismasting is no longer broken.There is not a current broken meta in the game. I think the devs have done a good job of reworking systems in the game so far.

pls bring back 15kn 1st rates OMEGALUL

I have a LO/Wo L'ocean, with Cartagena and Navy structure. Base thickness is 70 and the plus thickness is 22,5. I can ofc be wrong, but that should be around 30%. Ore I am I doing the math wrong? Then I still have 5 shipknowledge to modify my ship and 1-3 permanent upgrades.

4/5 is not that rare. I got 3 and I don't craft that many ships. Can't tell about 5/5 because I either have seen one.

Demasting a problem? Depends on the view. If a single player in a figth can take 4-6 mast down in a 45 min fight, I would say maybe a bit to easy, But if you like a demasting game, it is just fine. So I guess it depends on what you want in the game.

I like the best players should be best. But in that line og logic it also makes me think there should be no different wood, upgtades ore ship knowledge. Let players fight on the same ship. The best will still be the best and the rest can't complain it is because the have better ships.

 

Edited by staun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lars Kjaer I saw yesterday why you think that this game is not skillbased.

Shooting on angled broadsides, sailing into a not escapeable situation with a faster ship etc. etc.

 

NA is very skillbased or how do you explain that I won with a crewspace essex vs a endymion of yours?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, staun said:

Demasting a problem? Depends on the view. If a single player in a figth can take 4-6 mast down in a 45 min fight, I would say maybe a bit to easy, But if you like a demasting game, it is just fine. So I guess it depends on what you want in the game

A 5th with 18pd double charge long guns can demast every other fifth rate (even on 250m methinks but I don't know the pen values for that tbh). Depending on the mast upgrades used it is possible to take down all three masts (basically it's four due to nearly everybody repairs as soon as one masts falls) in let's say 20 minutes with single shot for an average player (when in close range!!). Before the "wow! how and never can I do that" replies come: have you tried? Really tried? In the same time u have your enemy chained to about 60% twice, which is a number where tacking get's pretty time consuming. 

@Lars Kjaer as long as i sink more than i lose and you guys appreciate the one or two pvp marks per player when killing me in a 4-5vs1 I'm totally fine. 

Concerning demasting: there is still the middle or top section that is penetrated by nearly all calibres. 

A hint: widen your horizon in playstyles and there is still much to discover.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I think about it this will actually help the casual players to win some fights against veteran solo players for a change.

Players love to spam chain. So much that they often lose their numeral advantage by simply getting out damaged.

In this example the 2 enemy players spammed chain for a long time probably to make sure i can't run away. But in that time I could gain the upper hand.
1j9rAou.jpg?2

Now think about it if they had limited chain they might be more likely to deal some damage. Things might become harder for vets and more interesting for casuals.

Edited by Pada
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a good change,in the last few days i experienced fights where people would just use chain till the end no matter what happens, i mean to the point where i was side by side with 'em but they were still goin chain even hitting the hull.I ve tried to tell em that was not going to work and yet chaining was the asnwer,guess what?they sank.To me Admin is making these players a favour forcing them to learn the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

A 5th with 18pd double charge long guns can demast every other fifth rate (even on 250m methinks but I don't know the pen values for that tbh). Depending on the mast upgrades used it is possible to take down all three masts (basically it's four due to nearly everybody repairs as soon as one masts falls) in let's say 20 minutes with single shot for an average player (when in close range!!). Before the "wow! how and never can I do that" replies come: have you tried? Really tried? In the same time u have your enemy chained to about 60% twice, which is a number where tacking get's pretty time consuming. 

@Lars Kjaer as long as i sink more than i lose and you guys appreciate the one or two pvp marks per player when killing me in a 4-5vs1 I'm totally fine. 

Concerning demasting: there is still the middle or top section that is penetrated by nearly all calibres. 

A hint: widen your horizon in playstyles and there is still much to discover.

Yeah I tried and I guess on demasting I am above average. I can demast, but need a bit more time than the best players, Yes I know practice and the hole drill. It is just not the game style I prefere should be promoted.  As other have a right to raise there voice on how they like the gameplay, so do I.

How many times do we not se ship lost all mast just waiting to get sunk. I honnestly think it is to easy to totally demast a ship completly for the best at demasting. If your ship has been chained down to 60%, you can still sail and thereby still fight. How much fight can you do without any mast? As said is just not the way I prefere the game is going. I could easy live with demasting if it not render a ship be totally helpless, lets say on to of its mast the bottom section couldn't get shot of and you would have about 40 %  sail. Btw there is little reason to keep chaining a ship when its sails go under 70%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funnily enough i just posted something directly relevant to this :

I think this can only be successfully addressed if the points about sails use and rep kits for sails are also addressed. in theory though I dont think its a bad idea limiting chain ammo.

please have a read and let me know your thoughts 

Sails & Sail Damage and the Current Combat model Thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dislike 'one-shot' repairs (or alternatively rapid repair over time), with cool-down between repair actions.

Better results would arise from an implementation which is also more realistic and believable.

A short 'dwell' after initiating the repair, and then a slow reduction in accumulated damage in proportion over a long working period, with no cooldown between sequential repairs (and indeed a second repair initiated during the first action is possible, adding the repair time (without dwell) to the end of the current time).

A dwell time roughly half the loading interval, and a repair which reduces restores strength based on maximum damage accumulated by 1% every 1/50th of the working time might be good places to start, with a working time of 15-20 minutes making repair useful but not dominant, especially if you cannot actively haul away and repair in peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How will this affect chain for chasers? As they only use 2 (usually) shots per load? Or will it only affect broadsides?

 

Edited by VonVolks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Pada said:

When I think about it this will actually help the casual players to win some fights against veteran solo players for a change.

Players love to spam chain. So much that they often lose their numeral advantage by simply getting out damaged.

In this example the 2 enemy players spammed chain for a long time probably to make sure i can't run away. But in that time I could gain the upper hand.
1j9rAou.jpg?2

Now think about it if they had limited chain they might be more likely to deal some damage. Things might become harder for vets and more interesting for casuals.

I am not so sure your assessment of this is correct. Ask yourself why players got into the habit of spamming chain and I think you will find that it was to overcome the speed meta. The only chance they have of killing you is if they first ensure you cannot run. If they had started doing serious hull damage to you, then you would probably have run.

You are correct they may have miscalculated by staying on chain too long without seeing that they were taking too much hull damage, but I do not believe limited chain would have allowed them win this battle. They may have had to start using ball when they ran out of chain, but without destroying your ability to run they would still not win the battle. You probably attacked them knowing that you had a good chance of winning and if it went bad you could escape.

As someone pointed out earlier, limited chain may make the speed meta more important unless repairs become limited.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I am not so sure your assessment of this is correct. Ask yourself why players got into the habit of spamming chain and I think you will find that it was to overcome the speed meta. The only chance they have of killing you is if they first ensure you cannot run. If they had started doing serious hull damage to you, then you would probably have run.

You are correct they may have miscalculated by staying on chain too long without seeing that they were taking too much hull damage, but I do not believe limited chain would have allowed them win this battle. They may have had to start using ball when they ran out of chain, but without destroying your ability to run they would still not win the battle. You probably attacked them knowing that you had a good chance of winning and if it went bad you could escape.

As someone pointed out earlier, limited chain may make the speed meta more important unless repairs become limited.

Yes sure that‘s way we have to test it out first. Right now everything are just speculations.

In my example however I have no chace in running away. The close tag plus lack of stern chasers sealed my fate to fight it out. But you are right that in most battles the natural first step is to pin the player.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are removing the one defence  the one chance newer players have of taking down the big bad wolf that hangs around in the green zone.

Whats happened? Has Captain reverse lost too many ships in the last few days? These guys will be sailing around taking off peoples masts at will but no one can counter it by chaining them down sometimes I really feel this game is set up so experienced players can slaughter noobs with impunity.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fletch67 said:

You are removing the one defence  the one chance newer players have of taking down the big bad wolf that hangs around in the green zone.

Whats happened? Has Captain reverse lost too many ships in the last few days? These guys will be sailing around taking off peoples masts at will but no one can counter it by chaining them down sometimes I really feel this game is set up so experienced players can slaughter noobs with impunity.

^^or becouse KPR Defense is somewhat effective these days?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this will help many new players.. way too many times have I seen people chaining me down to 70% using two broadsides, and then spend the next 10 broadsides getting me down to 65%... this will encourage them to stop at 70% and fire at my hull instead.

And please remember that it does not take an "Elite OP PvP veteran with über skillz" to demast an opponent. all it takes is a few well aimed broadsides - spend one day practicing demasting on the AI and you're good to go. I often find AI demasting to be much more difficult than player demasting.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

You are removing the one defence  the one chance newer players have of taking down the big bad wolf that hangs around in the green zone.

Whats happened? Has Captain reverse lost too many ships in the last few days? These guys will be sailing around taking off peoples masts at will but no one can counter it by chaining them down sometimes I really feel this game is set up so experienced players can slaughter noobs with impunity.

Don't think Reverse has nothing to do with it.Sniping masts is part of the game,it requires skill,it requires practice. It is way more efficient than chaining and players,noobs or not,should practice and learn it.There will always be players better than others like you can see in any other game\sport ecc...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is fine and dandy but what about small ships now? I like to run around in pickles and such but due to obscene thickness meta they can't pen anything with ball and sterncamping in a fleet engagement just gets in everyone's way.

As is, chaining down people's sails is one of the only ways to be effective as an unrated ship when fighting among even the mid sized frigates, I hope this doesn't put the last nail in their coffins. 

Edited by Capt Aerobane
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Pada said:

Yes sure that‘s way we have to test it out first. Right now everything are just speculations.

In my example however I have no chace in running away. The close tag plus lack of stern chasers sealed my fate to fight it out. But you are right that in most battles the natural first step is to pin the player.

I agree it should be tested and see how it works out. There have been many opinions in this thread but we will not know who is right till it is tested, sometimes changes work different than expected.

I was only trying to point out that as you had made the tag to face two other players then you most probably knew you could defeat them or be able to run if things went bad.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Capt Aerobane said:

This is fine and dandy but what about small ships now? I like to run around in pickles and such but due to obscene thickness meta they can't pen anything with ball and sterncamping in a fleet engagement just gets in everyone's way.

As is, chaining down people's sails is one of the only ways to be effective as an unrated ship, I hope this doesn't put the last nail in their coffins. 

That's not true, after the last patch almost any ship can be penetrated by smaller caliber guns - I often sail an Agamemnon using 4lb longs on the quarter deck (I have my reasons! :D). They frequently penetrate frigates in battle, sometimes ships of the line too.

Speaking of the pickle, it should not be able to stand up against a frigate in a fight. A small ship should almost always be ineffective in fleet engagements - there's a reason why John Richards Lapenotière didn't join the fight at Trafalgar to chain the enemy.

EDIT: @admin With this change, can I suggest the option to load different ammunition types on one broadside (eg. Chain for the weather deck and double on the gun deck)?

Edited by Percival Merewether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×