Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Chain shot limitations - advanced warning

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, admin said:

Captains

Amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch (so called tutorial patch)
No perk will be required for use of chain (at least for now).

Reasons

  • Historically ships carried A LOT less chain and grape compared to normal cannon balls. 
  • Gameplay wise we want to bring more skill into chaining and limitation of chain will force players to conserve it, pick proper angles to destroy more sail and in general think about its use instead of current chainshot clicker heroes
  • This also means that outnumbered players will have easier time fighting against bigger groups who rely on active chaining as the ONLY tactic. 

Please start thinking about new tactics and of course.... discuss. 

You are again limiting fun for your biggest playerbase - casuals and increasing fun for hardcore players. I could tell you what will happen but I'm pretty sure that you dont want to listen anyway.

One more thing. People providing you with feedback before change is not useless feedback but developement cost reduction. Some things are easy to predict.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, admin said:
  • Not agressive (you can outrepair damage)

Why everyone has to be aggressive?

Provide a possibility to play not so aggressive?  Play less aggressive but smart for example?

Too many repair kits simplify the game, make it one dimensional.

Makes also wind less important from combat perspective as it forces you to be aggressive.

 

3 hours ago, admin said:

When replying to Christendom i think - i mentioned that of course limitations of chain will come with changes in their damage and tuning of repairs
The main goal is simple
Remove mindless chaining from any distance
Force the player to think when to shoot and at what angle. 

Look at the difference

  • Hull damage has some tactical depth
  • Raking and grape has a lot of tactical depth
  • Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
    •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.


 

This sound really good.  Please don't fail with the patch.

 

3 hours ago, admin said:

Wind change makes speed less relevant - as we want you to not run but fight. If you don't plan to run - wind change brings variety.

This also makes sailing profiles slightly less important.

You are able to keep the wind, maybe you have invested in a ship and upgrades that make it even easier.  Then the wind changes and takes your advantage.

Changing a bit too often right now?

...

I said earlier that the game is turning more and more SOL oriented. I hope you understand that with this change you may actually make SOLs even stronger. SOLs have now more firepower than ever before to shoot masts and SOLs have now stronger masts than ever before as well. Now we are about to reduce chain shots?

Some love for 5th and 4th rates? (In general, not just with chain shots)

Edited by Cmdr RideZ
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, admin said:

Casual PVP? Naval action is not a casual game. In fact we always said IT IS NOT CASUAL. 
Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas.

Bit sad to see the reply against a legitimate concern that a number of players have (spread across the player base). Personally making PvP more difficult for only newer players doesn't make it 'hardcore'.

Not exactly related to the thread but for me PvP needs to have real consequences for mistakes and failures to be hardcore. I'm all for new players having their world kicked in when they do something stupid but there needs to be that sort of risk for everyone in the food chain, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be that kind of danger for many of the big fish atm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RKY said:

 

about what to say, if you can not even see the characteristics of my ship through the included stream?)

know why I use such ships? because a very large part of the "smart and professional players" hunt me through the stream, and I have no choice but to use such ships. Otherwise, I can remove the game, or stop streaming. I'm not going to do this, so I take it and adapt it.

sorry for google translate :D

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

multiple repairs make the combat deeper in my oppinion

windchanges are good aswell if you think ahead and plan your moves according to it. Remember the times the wind changes and look on the clock and its no problem anymore. It makes running away harder though thats true and good in my oppinion.

Agressive players or lets say players that know when to switch from passive to aggressive and back are the skilled ones in my oppinion it has nothing to do with simplicity.

 

In my oppinion the changes make the game more skillbased. That can be good or bad ofcourse.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More close combat = more fun :)

Today it occured that a Bellona rigging shocked a Victory with chains from close distance. 26% sails in one broadside. Sure that's not something occuring too often but boiii I'm glad those brainless tactics of spaming chains from big distance could be reduced. As @Havelock said, those battles in which people are so afraid that they chain one to death while heavily outnumbering their foe are the worst. No problem in losing them, @HachiRoku agreed the many should win this fight. But instead of being killed in ten to fifteen minutes (because one wants to fight and doesn't even run) one only gets hello kittyin chained to 40% (twice!!!) so one barely goes 4knots downwind and therefore can't move - is just annoying (I would say it's close to griefing, the French, DNP and WTF would probably  say it's smart gameplay). In this style there is no skill. Chain can and should be devastating if used from proper distance and angle. 

Edit: Chaining is still easier than demasting. 

Edited by Palatinose
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Borch said:

One more thing. People providing you with feedback before change is not useless feedback but developement cost reduction. Some things are easy to predict.

Simple guide on what is feedback and what is not as you seem to be missing the point

This is Feedback
I don't like this feature AT ALL it really sucks for my playstyle because a)..... b)...... c).....  it would be much better if you did this   x)  y) z)

This is Not feedback
Idiots, this is a final nail in the coffin of a dead game 

We are all members of same community and are here to have a good time playing and making the game.
People who will interfere with building a nice friendly community will get removed first from forum then from game chat. As they just scare the new players away. Here is the reminder on the rules.

Now lets get back to chain. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

I'm sorry, but if you have nothing smart to add, remain silent and stop insulting. Maybe @Lars Kjaer will calm you down. Players from Prussia can confirm my claims about Epic Events, I've been doing them since Devs added them to the game, just ask:

@Vile Executioner @Mikocen @vazco @Wyy @Tutanxamon or anyone else that has done them with me.

players that have to do epic events with chain. Git Gud

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, admin said:

Video of at least one of them? 
Maybe i am wrong and video will prove me wrong. But data shows that majority of battles end  pretty fast
there only reason for a long battle is when both sides are extremely passive, or extremely accurate and skilled. Being passive is and was discouraged historically as it always led to indecisive battles .  I will gladly check the video. 

You are KOTO right? Whenever i see your battles on the streams they always end up with full or partial annihilation of one of the sides.
PS. Patrol battles always end with death. 

think the problem is more that if you are 5 frigates vs 1 3rd rate or something they can withdraw from the battle and come back with basically full HP, and rinse and repeat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is awesome. With a reduction in repairs to two full repairs per hold the endless sieges carried out by those stalking newbies would be over. A step in the right direction.  Limit grape as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Pada said:

We don't even know how much chain we will have. Can't we just try it out instead of raging on the forums. Now we have the time to try things out at release it's too late.

people forget even thought it has been in a early access state for some years that it still is in development. Imagine this forum 15 years ago when Blizzard were worked on WoW, people would rage of how hard missions were and how long time it would take to travel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I think done this way is a bad idea to be honest.

 Why not just make chain/grape/ball have a weight that adds to overall cargo weight?   That way people can decide to carry more ammo but at a price of top speed affected with heavier ship.

Seems bad that you limit only 1 ammo type, surely is better to let players decide ammo load out using cargo space as the limiting factor.

Edited by Dibbler
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@admin

What if instead have the constant 15 min timer on repairs, it increases itself each time you use an repair with an shared timer as it is.

You use Hull repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 10 mins.

You use Rig Repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 15 mins.

You use Hull repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 20 mins.

You use Rig Repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 25 mins.

 

Same with the grape just as it isn't any shared timer on it with the rig and hull repair, but with this you would have to make wise decisions on when to repair, what to repair and it wouldn't feel like you could repair all the time as you basically can now. 15 mins in battle feels like a blink of an eye.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, admin said:

This is Feedback
I don't like this feature AT ALL it really sucks for my playstyle because a)..... b)...... c).....  it would be much better if you did this   x)  y) z)

Тяжело писать по английски много и глубоко.

Итак.

Мне вообще не нравится ограничение книппелей потому, что:
1. Парусный бой очень выжный аспект игры, а вы скорее всего его сломаете, пусть и на какое-то время.
2. Какую прожать ремку - сейчас наиважнейшее решение в бою, система сдержек и противовесов.
3. Комбинированная группа из легких кораблей перехвата и дамагеров это нормально. Единственное, что могут делать перехватчики это стрелять по парусам, вытягивая из противника ремонты, по метру выгрызая дистанцию для основных сил. Толком надамажить тяжа они не в состоянии, только подставиться. Отстрелялись и на выход? Не могу удержать остатки противника в бою, потому что нечем? 
4. То, что ганк группа не может вылезти из боя в зеленке, потому что им медленно и верно убивают парус это тоже правильно. Не имея в достатке книппелей реализовать свое численное преимущество зашедший подкреп не сможет.
5. Вообще непонятно, как это балансировать. Ограничение на даблы и чарджи - естественно и понятно, т.к. есть альтернатива в виде обычного ядра. Эффективной альтернативы книппелю нет. В бою 1 на 1 нужно одно количество, в бою 10 на 10 совсем другое. Сколько давать?
 

имхо будет лучше если Вы:
1. Не будете трогать книппели,  в игре хватает к чему приложить руки
2. Если причина *действительно* в бестолковых (как вам кажется) действиях игроков - снижайте эффективность бестолковой стрельбы, и пусть себе балуются.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said:

So how low do we want the player numbers? As it is it is not a SKILL based game but a game where the battles are decided by: Shipwoods, upgrades and knowledge slots in that order. 

This is just false. How do you explain when two equal fleets fight and one wins?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

This is just false. How do you explain when two equal fleets fight and one wins?

How often do you see two equal fleets meet? - At the end of the day it's the shipwoods, upgrades and shipknowledges that decides the outcome. How come I hardly ever gets demasted? - I run mast upgrades. Could everyone do it? - yes. Can everyone afford it? - no. If this was supposed to be a skill based game why then can a ships gun dispersion be diminished by 40%? or the ship thickness by 30%? or the ship turning speed by 25%? In the end it all adds up and with the introduction of 5/5 ships it became even less balanced. It's not the player that decides the outcome of the battle it's far more often the upgrades, coupled with the insanely high hard caps, that decides the outcome of the battles. New players simply cannot compete in terms of ressources and will as a result more often than not experience what they perceive as unfair fights and leave the game as a result. And frankly, judging by both some players replies and the arrogance of the developers I can't blame them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Palatinose said:

 

Edit: Chaining is still easier than demasting. 

I'll ignore your baseless comment on DNP (as I recall you tend to lose a lot of ships in the CS area.. We're ofc thankfull for the easy PvP marks) and just highlight the area I simply don't agree with. Chaining IS easier than demasting - because some ships are nigh impossible to demast due to mast upgrades and the moronic mechanic that enables mast hp to go from 1% to 100% in a hearthbeat - for those that knows that mechanic ofc. This however has nothing to do with skill but everything to do with upgrades - against a noob with no knowledge of the mechanic, no logic behind the mechanics and no access to the upgrades needed to make your ship demasting proof it will only mean that every PvP match is a onesided afair with no learning curve because no new player sticks around long enough to learn anything..

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

How often do you see two equal fleets meet? - At the end of the day it's the shipwoods, upgrades and shipknowledges that decides the outcome. How come I hardly ever gets demasted? - I run mast upgrades. Could everyone do it? - yes. Can everyone afford it? - no. If this was supposed to be a skill based game why then can a ships gun dispersion be diminished by 40%? or the ship thickness by 30%? or the ship turning speed by 25%? In the end it all adds up and with the introduction of 5/5 ships it became even less balanced. It's not the player that decides the outcome of the battle it's far more often the upgrades, coupled with the insanely high hard caps, that decides the outcome of the battles. New players simply cannot compete in terms of ressources and will as a result more often than not experience what they perceive as unfair fights and leave the game as a result. And frankly, judging by both some players replies and the arrogance of the developers I can't blame them.

Not sure if hyperbolic or ignorant of stat caps and mod limitations in game

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, admin said:

Can you elaborate in detail how does green zones relate to limited chain?

The statement have very little to do with the green zone. But very much in the shift in policy. 

When you made green zone it was to protect new and “PvE/soft core PvP” players. As you said at that time, if all the sheep left, what would be left for the Wolf.

Limit chain will hit the soft players harder than the hardcore player. Is that a problem? Why, well they can’t snipe an demast a ship in 10 min. So they will proberly just loose all mast and wait for the hardcore player to kill them of.

In my expirience players only fight if they belive they have a chance ore if they are forced to it. But NA is a game, not real life, so what happens if players are forced to do something they don’t want. They stop.

Maybe to go hardcore is the way, I don’t know. But when all the sheeps are gone, what then?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Not sure if hyperbolic or ignorant of stat caps and mod limitations in game For a statement to ignorant it would need to be either informed or uninformed. This is easy to clarify.

@admin I believe my statement on the hard caps are correct; could you confirm or deny these hard caps?

Turning speed: -25%

Sail hp: +30%

Armor hp: +30%

Hull thickness: +30%

Gun reload: -30%

Gun dispersion: -30%

speed: 15,5 kn.

If the numbers are correct then every player can use this website for upgrade infos and try jugling the different knowledges and upgrades on a 4/5 or 5/5 ship and see if they are still "ignorant" enough to believe that skill has anything to do with this game anymore.

http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, admin said:

When replying to Christendom i think - i mentioned that of course limitations of chain will come with changes in their damage and tuning of repairs
The main goal is simple
Remove mindless chaining from any distance
Force the player to think when to shoot and at what angle. 

Look at the difference

  • Hull damage has some tactical depth
  • Raking and grape has a lot of tactical depth
  • Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
    •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.


 

You honnestly don’t think chain have any tactical debt. I think you should look at some og @Otto Kohl videos.

Also in pb with cirkles chain can have a tactical impact. We had a pb where a less skilled player in a smaller ship, kept the enemy out og the fight, by chain him. So to say it has no tactical use, I to put it mildly show lack of understanding the value of chain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, staun said:

You honnestly don’t think chain have any tactical debt. I think you should look at some og @Otto Kohl videos.

Also in pb with cirkles chain can have a tactical impact. We had a pb where a less skilled player in a smaller ship, kept the enemy out og the fight, by chain him. So to say it has no tactical use, I to put it mildly show lack of understanding the value of chain.

I was never a great demaster. I always prefered chain because it's more effective in short time period. If limiting chains will come along with increasing its damage and some sail repair changes I am willing to accept it and test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, in my opinion the Repair Timer is a bad mechanic anyway. 

We talk about „real“ fighting and sailing but have a weird repair timer. It would be far more realistic and useful to use repair as long as you want but you are limited by the repairs you have in board and your crew.

You can set up a new mast as long as you have spare parts on board and a big part of the crew can‘t do anything else while repairong. Same with the hull. You have 600 crew on board and you Need 300 for repairing the ship, so you have only 300 left for the other stuff. You can repair as long as you want and/or you have materials available, but then you will be effective out of battle for a while. And one should only be able to repair minor damage, and not whole masts in a matter of minutes.

Speaking of the crew it would be also helpful to be able to decide on your own how many mens I want assigned to my guns or sailing.

But in general limiting some type of ammo (or all kinds of it) can be good, so why not test it before complaining about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×