Chain shot limitations - advanced warning

[Edmund Blackadder]

3 hours ago, Le Raf Boom said:

Why not limit the amount of damage chain can do to sails? I think it's 69% now, make it 80% and if someone wants to chain at that point, let them?

And why should a sail at 80% say „Nah I‘m done...won‘t take any more damage.“

As long as there are pieces of or left there should be damage.

[StaleMemes]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Demasting objectively takes more skill than chaining. Don't forget you can also buff your sails same as your mast and even a 25% buffed mast will go down if enough shot hits it.

While I think all mods/wood types are way to extreme right now and would prefer 5% caps and much less dramatic modifiers, I agree that demasting is a more skill based and interesting meta than chaining. Perhaps taking some of the depth of demasting and applying them to chain mechanics could help too. (Punching an itty bitty hole in a sail vs chopping off a ton of rigging with a very well aimed broadside and having the entire sail flop to the deck)

[Sir Loorkon]

I like it that amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch!

There are people in this thread who want the repairs to be limited, too. I do not unterstand that. The repairs are limited right now. No good player will take lots of repairs on a travel because they whould slow him down to much. This is balanced very well. To much repairs = to slow = sunk. There is no need for changing that good balance of repairamount and speed.

[Slim McSauce]

22 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I like it that amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch!

There are people in this thread who want the repairs to be limited, too. I do not unterstand that. The repairs are limited right now. No good player will take lots of repairs on a travel because they whould slow him down to much. This is balanced very well. To much repairs = to slow = sunk. There is no need for changing that good balance of repairamount and speed.

current repairs makes a mess of combat. DPS vs Repair tank meta is revolting. Repairing in any circumstance over 5 times in one battle is absurd. Not crafting your own repairs therefore not being able to fight is just lame. 

2-2-1 repairs standard would be perfect. You get 4 major hello kitty ups and 1 crew replenishment as supplement.

The only way I'd justify the carry your own repairs mechanic is if it was realistic to where you carried wood, planks, spare topmasts and sheets, being able to refit and collect materials on near land without having to go into a port and collect repairs that way.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Sir Loorkon]

2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

current repairs makes a mess of combat. DPS vs Repair tank meta is revolting. Repairing in any circumstance over 5 times in one battle is absurd. Not crafting your own repairs therefore not being able to fight is just lame. 

2-2-1 repairs standard would be perfect. You get 4 major hello kitty ups and 1 crew replenishment as supplement.

I dont think so. How do you want to fight a long battle against a large amount of ships when you have only 2-2-1 repairs? This simply shortens the battle by killing you (if you stay in) or shortens the battle (because you are forced to leave after the last repair is used if you are fast enough). The player should be able to decide how many repairs will fit to his ship and how fast/slow he wants to be refering to the amount of repairs he decided to take with him. In the moment it is balanced quite well. If you take to many repairs you get to slow witch is dangerous, if you do not take enough repairs, you will not stand a fight. Nice balance.

[Dibbler (Retired)]

3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Demasting objectively takes more skill than chaining. Don't forget you can also buff your sails same as your mast and even a 25% buffed mast will go down if enough shot hits it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Capt Aerobane said:

I think each ship should have a set magazine/accessible cargo weight capacity and you can take whatever ratios or amounts of gunpowder, cannon balls, chain shot, and canister shot as you like so long as it is within the weight constraints. Have fire-ship fitting give no benefit to explosive radius, and have that be determined purely by the amount of gunpowder on board: If you want to go full fire-ship, you will have to lose a lot of combat effectivity by replacing ammunition and possibly also repairs with large amounts of powder.

Double shot consumes cannon balls 2x as fast, double charge consumes powder 2 or 3x as fast. If you run out of cannon balls, which is unlikely unless you spam, you can board or use other types, and if you run out of grape to you can always use scattershot (improvised grape shot made of nails, shards of glass, and whatever rubbish can be found) If you run out of gunpowder, you done screwed the hell up.

Have repairs linked to a similar system, repairs based on planks, rigging parts, canvas rolls, coardage/oakum, and spare cannons if you want to replace those.

This would have to be a separate compartment from the hold: This makes sense, as a lot of cargo in the hold might not be accessible while at sea, certainly not at short notice on a large ship. Light ships might not have this problem, again giving them a unique role to play in fleet combat. Solo duels would be largely unaffected because when fighting few opponents running out of ammunition is highly unlikely, again unless players spam ineffective broadside for a long time. 

This would make repairs more interesting and balanced, and also make life BETTER for light ships because they can now ferry supplies to larger ships in the middle of a battle or the open world which would be fun (at least for me). Perhaps let them transport crew as well and ditch "rum" although that would be of questionable use. I suppose a brig could drop off 80 or so crew and have a skeleton crew sail it out of combat, which while not a massive aide could be important for a SOL.

What do you guys think?
 

 

A magazine weight and also ship supplies weight (repairs) that max out amounts you can carry ready for combat.

This way devs can adjust amounts of type ammo/rep supply max amounts by ship type (would also add more diversity to ships, maybe a new trim type with increased capacity).  Also can fine tune with ammo/rep weights.

 Would mean in fleets, load outs of ammo types / ship supplies would add extra layer of diversity and risk.

[Slim McSauce]

45 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I dont think so. How do you want to fight a long battle against a large amount of ships when you have only 2-2-1 repairs? This simply shortens the battle by killing you (if you stay in) or shortens the battle (because you are forced to leave after the last repair is used if you are fast enough). The player should be able to decide how many repairs will fit to his ship and how fast/slow he wants to be refering to the amount of repairs he decided to take with him. In the moment it is balanced quite well. If you take to many repairs you get to slow witch is dangerous, if you do not take enough repairs, you will not stand a fight. Nice balance.

You forgot one little detail, the enemy is under the same amount of repairs you are. So if you let him get you down 2 rig reps without you expending his 2 reps then you kind of failed your mission didn't you? The point is to tactically finesse your opponent in sailing and marksmanship, not break his 20 repair tank like we're playing on fantasy mode with ships repairing whole sections of masts every 10 minutes, or replenishing 35% of structure every what feels like 5 minutes because everything takes so much longer when you're sailing a big boat around.

It's just such cheesiness. Really it kills the authenticity of the battles in many ways forcing us to play like blood thirsty savages, and not proper gentleman of the sea!

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Sir Loorkon]

2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

You forgot one little detail, the enemy is under the same amount of repairs you are. So if you let him get you down 2 rig reps without you expending his 2 reps then you kind of failed your mission didn't you? The point is to tactically finesse your opponent in sailing and marksmanship, not break his 20 repair tank like we're playing on fantasy mode with ships repairing whole sections of masts every 10 minutes, or replenishing 35% of structure every what feels like 5 minutes because everything takes so much longer when you're sailing a big boat around.

It's just such cheesiness. Really it kills the authenticity of the battles in many ways.

I am talking about OW PVP: If you have a 1:1 you might have a point. Usulaly it is not 1:1 and the side with more ships will get a great advantage because the amount of repairs can be multiplied by the amount of ships. But even in a 1:1 situation I do not think you are right. A 1:1 fight usualy takes 15-30 minutes. Not even enough time to use 3 repairunits. If you play 1:1 against a skilled player it might take longer. In the last case the way of using repairs and  running low on them is the most fun. If a mast falls in OW PVP you are gone in most cases, with or without limited repairs because you mostly will not have full sails after the repair.

If you do patrolmissions (not OW PVP), you use completly other ships (tanky) and you will need tons of repairs, ecp. when been ganked. Otherwise you would not stand more than 30 minutes in the circle of death.

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Lighter repair kits or without weight would be ok. Especially for frigates like 5th rates would be really nice to have long range roaming. Frigates were used mainly in this kind of duties, not gank SOLs.

1+1+1 repair kits might be ok. Devs wanted to create a money sink, connect combat more to economy (or the opposite). Any count of repair kits in the end can be good if the rest is supporting it.

Balancing rigging/hull so that it is playable can and has been done without zillion repair kits.

Zillion Repair Kits make it harder for gankED fleet not for gank fleet. Gank fleet can rotate their ships.  When someone gets in bad shape he takes distance and repairs. This is something the smaller fleet cannot do. Notice, I am speaking from players who actually know what they are doing. Not from gank fleets that lose ships because they forget to repair.

When repair kits were limited to 1+1 and gankED fleet was able to wreck someone, that someone was out of combat permanently. This way ganked fleets were able to survive or even win.

With repair kits you may survive a bit longer but you know what?  Your enemy has more repair kits. If your enemy is not complete retard, he will eventually win simply because of this.

If in OW you are in bad position, sure repair kits make you last longer. You win/lose fights simply by OW positioning.

If in OW you are in good position, you have a change to win or at least to survive relatively hard ganks by simply sailing well. If your enemy can repair damage from all their mistakes, the game sucks.  They know they have repair kit advantage, so they can take damage as much as they want.

Multiple repair kits support gank fleets not ganked fleets.

The current repair kit system is bad.

When you don't have repair kits to take care from all your fails. You are forced to play tactically and smartly. This does not go well with devs idea that everyone has to be aggressive and spend repair kits.

Granted, losing a mast and having no repairs is hard to balance but should be done.

Now day and night is also changing rapidly in combat, this is because of repair kits. Battles should be open longer now as well, as those are multiply days long, right?

Because the direction of development is "Naval Action for Dummies"... I am worried how this new system will come out.

[AeRoTR]

3 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I am talking about OW PVP: If you have a 1:1 you might have a point. Usulaly it is not 1:1 and the side with more ships will get a great advantage because the amount of repairs can be multiplied by the amount of ships. But even in a 1:1 situation I do not think you are right. A 1:1 fight usualy takes 15-30 minutes. Not even enough time to use 3 repairunits. If you play 1:1 against a skilled player it might take longer. In the last case the way of using repairs and  running low on them is the most fun. If a mast falls in OW PVP you are gone in most cases, with or without limited repairs because you mostly will not have full sails after the repair.

If you do patrolmissions (not OW PVP), you use completly other ships (tanky) and you will need tons of repairs, ecp. when been ganked. Otherwise you would not stand more than 30 minutes in the circle of death.

 

You want to fight 1 vs 5 and you want to win or live, yes you need unlimited repairs, but why not play WOT ?

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, AeRoTR said:

but why not play WOT ?

This is my favourite line of argumentation.

[Archaos]

10 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

You want to fight 1 vs 5 and you want to win or live, yes you need unlimited repairs, but why not play WOT ?

I guess the issue is more about when you are forced to fight 5v1 rather than when you choose to fight 1v5.

I do not know how limited repairs would work out, but at present in a 5v1 they can rotate who gets repaired while constantly wearing you down and even your unlimited repairs cannot keep up.

[Angus MacDuff]

I started this game at the beginning of the year and I love it.  I'm a history fan of this era and the game was made for me.  Having said that, there are realism issues that should be addressed and other unrealistic issues that should be left alone.  (starting with limited chain..)

• -We need unlimited ammo just for non-tedious gameplay...running low or out of ammo in a battle can mean a long sail home to replenish...no fun.
• Both ball and chain punched holes in sails...chain was used to destroy rigging and the smaller masts and yards - the effects of chain should change, not its amount.
• repairs in battle (especially to crew) should be next to non-existent. it did NOT happen in actual battles to any substantial degree.  Repair after battle is realistic...Sails can be fully repaired and structure too.  I'm on the fence about crew replacement because of the tedium factor of returning to friendly ports for new crew.
• Get rid of all the super mods...Ships of the same class should be very similar.  (A player of high skill does not need an extra advantage, and I can't achieve high skill if im outclassed by super-mods.  This is the major issue with this game IMO.  Skill should triumph, not gear.)
• I understand why the wind is constantly changing in OW and agree with the method, although it should be about 5 times slower.  It should NOT change in battle.  All your planned tactics get tossed out the window with the rapidly changing wind direction.  Battles are short enough that wind can be consistent.
• Patrol zones are great and bring on the 5th rate limited zones as well.  You still have to protect the carebears though as they are part of the game.
• Oh, and there are far too many 1st Rates in the game!

You guys (Devs) have produced a great game.  Just a few common sense tweaks...

Edited April 13, 2018 by Oberon74
forgot a point

[DeRuyter]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:22 PM, Vile Executioner said:

@admin I really enjoy this idea, however I may suggest something, can you make it to where loading chain is an option for carronades? I like to run carronades on the top decks of my frigates a lot, and I normally just turn it off with F1, however the thing is if chain is limited I would like to focus my chaining on guns that I like to use the chain on, such as my medium cannons or Longs specifically. Rather than the 10-12 carronades loading chain automatically when I load it. Those 10-12 chain shot could be used better on my lower deck. Otherwise, I enjoy the idea of chain in a “strategic” sense rather than a spam sense, good job on the dev team for coming up with a brilliant idea.

+1 That would be historical as well.  In 1813 the Constitution didn't carry chain (double headed shot) for her carronades. They were normally loaded with grape & ball at close range anyway. Although carronade only armed ships (Niagara), particularly in the USN, carried dismantled shot.

[Slim McSauce]

13 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I dont think so. How do you want to fight a long battle against a large amount of ships when you have only 2-2-1 repairs? This simply shortens the battle by killing you (if you stay in) or shortens the battle (because you are forced to leave after the last repair is used if you are fast enough). The player should be able to decide how many repairs will fit to his ship and how fast/slow he wants to be refering to the amount of repairs he decided to take with him. In the moment it is balanced quite well. If you take to many repairs you get to slow witch is dangerous, if you do not take enough repairs, you will not stand a fight. Nice balance.

If you're unable to win a battle with 2-2-1 then you probably won't win a battle where your enemies are carrying 30 repairs each. You're just delaying the inevitable at the cost of authenticity and patience of everyone involved.

Thing is about letting people carry as many repairs as they want is that it's not at all realistic to repair 10 times (which is over 200% of your ships health) and the speed penalty isn't at all worth how it makes ship combat into WOT dps battles.

[Cmdr RideZ]

23 hours ago, Oberon74 said:

I started this game at the beginning of the year and I love it...

3.5 months and your second post makes more sense than what most vets or devs say. May I ask what is your in game name?

[Kjartan]

Decreseased ammo + OW &in battle trading = Ammo bargs a logistics vessel for the fleet

[Lovec1990]

52 minutes ago, Kjartan said:

Decreseased ammo + OW &in battle trading = Ammo bargs a logistics vessel for the fleet

well its nice idea limited ammo and OW trading/transfer it will force raiders too conserve ammo in fights and for longer periods bring logistics ship with ammo and repairs

[seanjo]

Limited ammo, supply ships, the ability to ditch cargo and cannons to try to escape...

[NethrosDefectus]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:58 PM, Slim McSauce said:

If you're unable to win a battle with 2-2-1 then you probably won't win a battle where your enemies are carrying 30 repairs each. You're just delaying the inevitable at the cost of authenticity and patience of everyone involved.

Thing is about letting people carry as many repairs as they want is that it's not at all realistic to repair 10 times (which is over 200% of your ships health) and the speed penalty isn't at all worth how it makes ship combat into WOT dps battles.

Yes but when people insist on going round in large groups, exaggerated amounts of repairs are your only hope. Some of us enjoy a fight and not the gank. Heavily limiting the supplies is only going to discourage people from actually trying to fight for themselves and will instead encourage them to group up more.

[NethrosDefectus]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:20 AM, Slim McSauce said:

You forgot one little detail, the enemy is under the same amount of repairs you are. So if you let him get you down 2 rig reps without you expending his 2 reps then you kind of failed your mission didn't you? The point is to tactically finesse your opponent in sailing and marksmanship, not break his 20 repair tank like we're playing on fantasy mode with ships repairing whole sections of masts every 10 minutes, or replenishing 35% of structure every what feels like 5 minutes because everything takes so much longer when you're sailing a big boat around.

It's just such cheesiness. Really it kills the authenticity of the battles in many ways forcing us to play like blood thirsty savages, and not proper gentleman of the sea!

 

How many open world battles are fought 1v1? The reality is that if you go out looking for a fight then you will encounter a group FAR more often than you will encounter a solo player. 

We need to be able to repair masts several times throughout the battles if the devs are going to continue to insist on making demasting so easy. The current tactic of most experienced PvPers is to go straight for the demast. If the devs want to limit chain (which I wholeheartedly agree with) then they need to decrease the chance of losing a mast to go with it.

P.S. Can you tell me where you got this upgrade/book that lets you repair 35% of your armour every 5 minutes?

Edited April 15, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

On 13.4.2018 at 4:01 AM, Capt Aerobane said:

What do you guys think?

As your proposal has many tweaks and strategic thinking involved, leading to decisions of where to put the emphasis, otherwise opens compromises in the load of powder/ammunition types, --> it has to be great. To embed it however the devs would have a decent amount of work to do.

This together with the idea read before about having to put down sails for repairs, the more you put down, the more you can repair.

Or the limitation of chain shot has to be met with limitations to repair sails in battle, unless you move away from the action to find opportunities for substantial repairs. Say, something like a distance radius without enemy ships, as requirement.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

On 13.4.2018 at 3:38 PM, Oberon74 said:

We need unlimited ammo just for non-tedious gameplay...running low or out of ammo in a battle can mean a long sail home to replenish...no fun.

Well, what if allied ships could stop in the open world ocean and transfer cargo, especially ammunition (imagine it done by their longboats or side-by-side via cranes) for replenishing? That would even bring new tasks for some people as supplier for battle groups.

[Slim McSauce]

Its hard to imagine post chain and repair limits. I wasnt around for the old 2-2-1 repaor system but I've heard good things about it. I suggested limiting chain last year because it promotes passiveness in battles. Infinite repairs do the opposite but what it does doesnt fit ow NA and when people see the cheesy run and repair gameplay they have now is actually retarded cancer and theres a more tactifully finesse game here they'll enjoy it more 

[Aquillas]

A few weeks ago, sailing in a Surprise around Bridgestone (out of safe area) I saw another Surp and and I sailed to her for engaging. This captain first run to Cariacou, then put sails down at mid distance. Knowing what should follow, I made for him, he just chained my sails. I was at carronade range with reduced sails when two other frigates (Endy + PFrig) entered the dance.

I sent a last carro broadside to the Surp and decided to sail away of these three cowards. 

Obviously I repaired sails at least three times, once immediatly and two or three times after, the three cowards relaying each others in endless chaining my sails, and later my masts. I returned fire, I think each of them had to repair maximum once.

I could escape only because I had rig repairs enough. Limiting repairs would only give another advantage to ganking cowards.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Eleazar de Damas