Patrol zone ROE is still an issue - BR limit

[vazco]

Yesterday we went into a partol zone with an Inger and a Bellona. The battle that we got was this:

Battles of 610 vs 3200 BR are simply boring and discouraging. Such battles are usually not fun for both sides, and RoE for those battles should be fixed.

It's not enough to limit a BR. In my opinion BR should be dynamic, changing with new enemies that enter. One side has 610 BR? Great, allow for up to 905 or even 1220BR to enter on another side. Once the first side gets reinforced, allow the second side to bring more reinforcements as well. Don't allow them to bring a force 5 times stronger than yours though.

 

Apart from WO, 3 americans and a lonely french whom we ganked, we didn't  find anyone else in the zone. I think it's a proof that ganking is an issue.

Edited March 22, 2018 by vazco

[StaleMemes]

Here is my solution: Battle only stays open if the battle is imbalanced, and only allows entry to the down side.

If the battle is fair and the teams are roughly equal: closes after 2 mins like normal, everything else same its a fun, fair fight and nobody gets ganked. People in the instance should get notification of whether the battle is open or closed, and whose side is open. (perhaps in place of the cannot leave timer)

If the battle is imbalanced and teams unequal due to BR, battle stays open, entry allowed only to reinforce the weaker side. If the battle equalizes, it closes after 2 mins. If the people entering the weaker side totally sway the balance of the battle the other way, their side closes and the enemy is allowed reinforcements.

[vazco]

Just now, Capt Aerobane said:

Here is my solution: Battle only stays open if the battle is imbalanced, and only allows entry to the down side.

If the battle is fair and the teams are roughly equal: closes after 2 mins like normal, everything else same its a fun, fair fight and nobody gets ganked. People in the instance should get notification of whether the battle is open or closed, and whose side is open. (perhaps in place of the cannot leave timer)

If the battle is imbalanced and teams unequal due to BR, battle stays open, entry allowed only to reinforce the weaker side. If the battle equalizes, it closes after 2 mins. If the people entering the weaker side totally sway the balance of the battle the other way, their side closes and the enemy is allowed reinforcements.

This solution doesn't allow for battles to grow, which is good. It creates larger battles, and simplifies finding fights.

As long as battles are evenly reinforced, they could stay open for 30 minutes. We just need a mechanism to dynamically even out reinforcements.

[Capt Jubal Early]

3 minutes ago, rediii said:

Low BR limit except battle starts with everyone in circle.

What happens is this, you either go all with fast ships or you have a balanced fleet at the limit.

Patrol zone should be something for groups of 4 players 

4 players ?! Your kidding right? This is a MMO not a 4v4 ship combat Sim. The dynamic entry sounds more reasonable of a solution.

[z4ys]

people will always join the bigger BR side except they can fill the BR on the weaker side up. Otherwise they will just sail to the next battle with open slots on the higher BR side.

On 16.3.2018 at 2:39 PM, z4ys said:

I think battles will still look like this 1200BR vs 100BR. The change doesnt solve the issue that people want to join the "winning side" they will just look for an other battle.

When entering the patrol zone without an active grp you have a 3on3 RoE means battles can have at max a 3on3

When entering in grp you can have up to  6on6 fights

When entering with battle grp you can have at max 25v25.

Regarding that you know what you will fight at max

 

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

Low BR limit except battle starts with everyone in circle.

What happens is this, you either go all with fast ships or you have a balanced fleet at the limit.

Patrol zone should be something for groups of 4 players 

Yes I think the only solution are fixed grp sizes. The combination of arena (the battle style) and OW (how to enter the fight) restrict  the patrol area in most cases to be a fair and enjoyable event in the long run.

[vazco]

Battles should be growing freely if there are people around - even up to 25 vs 25, simply because it's fun.

In first days of Patrol Events, before exploiting started, people were saying it was the most fun they had in NA since population was high. That's great.

Right now the only main issue is to have those battles more or less fair, so that you don't expect you will certainly die if you don't bring your own gank-band in 1st rates.

Having a dynamic system is the only way to adapt to both small and large populations. A fixed BR limit will either lower amount of fun, or won't do it's job.

 

 

ps. one more stupid behaviour that I saw was people sailing out of the circle when they knew they will loose. A denial of damage should be fixed as well - if someone dies outside of the circle, a person who killed him should get some damage bonus.

It's especially annoying when you get ganked, you turn a battle to your favor and once enemy sees it's even, they all sail out of the circle.

[Capt Jubal Early]

Just now, rediii said:

Wont solve the ganks. How big are groups these days in the zone?

If you want to do something with more do a PB

If you want equal fights go play legends. Works both ways buddy.

On weekends in the shallows our groups about 10-15 and thus far has been the most enjoyable addition to the game.

[vazco]

3 minutes ago, z4ys said:

people will always join the bigger BR side except they can fill the BR on the weaker side up. Otherwise they will just sail to the next battle with open slots on the higher BR side.

As long as they don't reinforce a side which is already at an advantage, it solves part of the problem.

I'm also one of the "people" that you mention and I always join the smaller side when I can. I know many others who do. They will do this more often if it's a choice between a fight and no fight. Don't assume, test

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Small groups lead to more groups inside the zone

They lead to randoms grouping up together because it is simple

They lead to less "waiting" times inside the zone

And eliminate ganking.

 

While it is nothing for a OW Sandbox game it provides a playstyle that is not present in current NA.

You can have your big boy fights in RvR, thats where it should be.

You and I both no RVR is inaccessible in its current form. That said see you at Kemps. 

[vazco]

Just now, rediii said:

You can have your big boy fights in RvR, thats where it should be.

I think you can have it in both RvR and patrol zones  

We can't convince people to do RvR by making other parts of NA less epic. To convince people to do epic RvR, it needs to get a meaning again.

 

If having only small group fights in Patrol Zones would be the only solution, I would support you. It's not though - it can be scalable based on player numbers.

Scalable BR would lead to multiple smaller fights anyway. Once you get to the fight, you have a choice - either tag enemies which are outside, over BR limit, or join the fight and reinforce your side, letting some more enemies in as well.

[z4ys]

6 minutes ago, Capt Trashal Early said:

If you want equal fights go play legends. Works both ways buddy.

On weekends in the shallows our groups about 10-15 and thus far has been the most enjoyable addition to the game.

NAL is on hold....

[z4ys]

11 minutes ago, vazco said:

As long as they don't reinforce a side which is already at an advantage, it solves part of the problem.

I'm also one of the "people" that you mention and I always join the smaller side when I can. I know many others who do. They will do this more often if it's a choice between a fight and no fight. Don't assume, test

Why do you have started this topic? Because people didnt joined your side even the battle is open all the time. BR limit only scales it down but dont solve it.

Edited March 22, 2018 by z4ys

[Capt Jubal Early]

Just now, z4ys said:

NAL is on hold....

Didn't know  

I think what Vazco is talking about is a genuine good soloution to the problem of "ganking".


 

 

3 minutes ago, rediii said:

Even if battles are not as big people will have more fun. And if you have a big group just take more frigates. It is a BR limit not a memberlimit

Didn't you just suggest a 4 player limit?

[vazco]

Just now, z4ys said:

Why do you have started this topic?

I see the problem in lower popularity of patrols, and lack of fun in battles where you're hugely outnumbered.

With a dynamic BR second problem would not be the issue (since disadvantaged side will be more or less equal to the enemy once you join them). This would lead to the first problem disappearing.

Again, I don't believe that having a choice between joining a weaker side or not joining at all, people will not join. It can be tested. Don't prevent testing things out because of your assumptions.

[z4ys]

Just now, Capt Trashal Early said:

Didn't know  

I think what Vazco is talking about is a genuine good soloution to the problem of "ganking".


 

 

Didn't you just suggest a 4 player limit?

3 player limit. As skilled solo player you can still fight 2 guys on top. As not so good player you can grab 2 friends which should be possible. Both parties still can have fun. As clan activity you can even make bigger grps. But you know what amount of player you will face at worst.

[vazco]

Just now, rediii said:

Guess I wrote that wrong. I suggest the same like I did some days ago

Small BR limit (1200 for example) for tumbado and aves because these are locations on the edges of the map more or less

Bigger BR limit in Nispaniola (2500 for example) because its in the center

 

1200 is 2 1sts and something else or some 3rd rates etc.

 

The bigger your playergroup is the more smaller ships you take etc.

 

The smaller BR limit is the more groups will be there the more fights you will find

This is a better solution that what we currently have, however worse than a dynamic BR - simply because it's tuned to a low population, which will change on release. It's also not tuned to eg. large numbers that can fight during weekends (1500 BR is still only 10 Surprises).

 

At least we all agree that the current system is broken  

[z4ys]

3 minutes ago, rediii said:

Limit BR instead of players.

Else you will only see 2 1sts and a fast taggingship

i still hope that to the rotation of playground we although get a rotation of allowed ships. But yeah why not. My guess to make patrol more a choice for everyone is in small grps rather than big fights. Nobody want to spend endless time to gather a full 25 player grp or hope to get maybe reinforced.

Edited March 22, 2018 by z4ys

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Guess I wrote that wrong. I suggest the same like I did some days ago

Small BR limit (1200 for example) for tumbado and aves because these are locations on the edges of the map more or less

Bigger BR limit in Nispaniola (2500 for example) because its in the center

 

1200 is 2 1sts and something else or some 3rd rates etc.

 

The bigger your playergroup is the more smaller ships you take etc.

 

The smaller BR limit is the more groups will be there the more fights you will find

I can still see it producing "gank" like results. Not as extreme of course but a big group would just turn up in tanky indefatigable's and kill the first rates through pack mentality. 
 

[vazco]

Fixed BR has one more issue - skill ganking. A well skilled group with 1200 BR can't be overtaken by a larger and organized group of less skilled players with the same BR limits. This would mean that less skilled players would start avoiding such zones.

It could be fixed by a PvP rank, or a dynamic BR which allows for a slight gank, of a limited BR advantage.

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by vazco

[Capt Jubal Early]

9 minutes ago, vazco said:

Fixed BR has one more issue - skill ganking. A well skilled group with 1200 BR can't be overtaken by a larger and organized group of less skilled players with the same BR limits. This would mean that less skilled players would start avoiding such zones.

It could be fixed by a PvP rank, or a dynamic BR which allows for a slight gank, of a limited BR advantage.

 

Just spit balling here but why not throw away SOL's from patrol areas and make it a "Skirmish Area" for frigates and lower. That will kill off the first rate gank and dictate a more level playing field like the shallows.

Really the SOL's are for RVR or atleast they were mainly for RVR before.

[Slim McSauce]

This is only an issue for deep water, shallows water patrols are still great with many huge battles

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Why? its the same BR. Do wenhave these ganklike results in pbs?

Because everyone knows a group of frigates can out play a few first rates with ease.

[vazco]

Just now, rediii said:

So you want ganks but at the same time dont

Because skilled players will only get killed by lowskilled players if they outnumber them by far.

In my oppinion these small scale pvp battles will result in a increase of general pvp skill.

I don't consider 1.3 vs 1 or 1.5 vs 1 a gank. Most popular games have an element of randomness which allows for a weaker player to win from time to time - eg. Texas Holdem. It's an issue when game becomes a total dice roll of who will get reinforced.

I believe that having an option of outnumber someone 1 vs 1.5 is a good feature - knowing full well that in most cases I will be on this outnumbered side. Otherwise, with low limited BR, there's a risk that Patrol Zones would become farming grounds for good players.

[vazco]

8 minutes ago, Capt Trashal Early said:

why not throw away SOL's from patrol areas and make it a "Skirmish Area" for frigates and lower

Right now, like in port battles, 1st rates allow you to bring an even force with lower amount of active players. This increases accessibility. It's a good feature.

[vazco]

Btw, @rediii, I would consider your idea of a fixed limit quite good, provided we would have PvP rank. For every Ram Dinark you could bring 4 Mr SealToBeClubbed. This would work as well.