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Patch 21: Tiered rewards in patrol missions, redeemable clearance and other changes.

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8 minutes ago, z4ys said:

No NAL.

 

 

Exactly his point, it failed so why are we trying to make the OW like that too? I have no issues with the zones myself, but I think it was stupid to bump up the rewards to some insane numbers before any ROE/BR limits was put into place cause all it did was encourage more ganks and uneven fights that you have no hope to escape cause no one can leave the fight.

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7 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Exactly his point, it failed so why are we trying to make the OW like that too? I have no issues with the zones myself, but I think it was stupid to bump up the rewards to some insane numbers before any ROE/BR limits was put into place cause all it did was encourage more ganks and uneven fights that you have no hope to escape cause no one can leave the fight.

wipe.jpg.f0b298d38ea12121cecabef169c6686a.jpg

Who cares we test stuff. Sometimes logic is bound to time. Sometimes we drink wine while we know we will have headache the next day because of it. Sometimes i believe we get features just so we are entertained even its known that they are flawed.

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Time and time again we have seen that PVP events simply act as a bandaid for a crafting/econ system that does not inherently promote OW PVP.  After a while the events die down because they simply act as a centralized location for gank fleets to hang out.  Day 1 and 2 of the patrol zones was fun, but now it seems that it is basically just a gank or be ganked situation.  Elite PVPers seldom fight other Elite PVPers, as seen with RUBLI joining the prussians or the Prussians joining BF battles in the gank zones.  This wolf on wolf fighting is basically a myth.  Prior to the PVP zone Prussian players would sail up the US east coast around the same time RUBLI and the pirates would and instead of fighting each other they would just join up and sink noobs for EZ marks.  There are of course exceptions, but they're limited.

The PVP events are only ever going to be a quick fix to a broken system.  People need to be given reasons to leave the safety of their capitals.  Small fixes to the game in the form of crafting regions or something similar would promote an increase in RVR and push players outside the zones, but for some reason they are not considered.  If a character can craft virtually anything in their home capital with zero risk, why should they leave the zones?  Alts can get whatever woods they want.  Still no reason to leave.  

The reason the PVP events last time they were introduced seemed to have more staying power was because of the paints and the blueprint drops.  They also didn't occur during the entire day.  Right now we have a zone that lasts all day, gives bountiful marks to various players....but they there is almost nothing to purchase with those marks.  No paints, no special items.  Just the same tired of PVP store that's been in the game for months.  If you're going to create a zone based around rewarding marks as the primary incentive for PVP in a MMO, you perhaps need to have the ability to cash those marks in and buy rarer items.  The zones are already starting to lose steam and it hasn't even been a week.

The game needs proper mechanics fixes and less relying on easy to code crutches.

Edited by ChristenTrash
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World of Tanks paints system please...   let me choose to pay for permanent or 30 days, and let me collect the different ones so i can swap em out.  Perhaps not at will, perhaps only the first time I equip a ship I just bought or built...

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40 minutes ago, ChristenTrash said:

The PVP events are only ever going to be a quick fix to a broken system.

Broken system aka the map is too big. So offering a hotspot is a good solution.

Why do you prefer people camping infront of capitals to fight vs 3x or more BR because thats the only fight they get and searching hours for enemies?

 

Is the PvP mission perfect? No and it never will. But with some fixes to BR its a good opportunity to find a quick fight.

46 minutes ago, ChristenTrash said:

Right now we have a zone that lasts all day, gives bountiful marks to various players....but they there is almost nothing to purchase with those marks.  No paints, no special items.  Just the same tired of PVP store that's been in the game for months.

They said they add paints for PvP marks.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

but you can still hunt other uninterested captains elsewhere. combat oriented captains are ok in being sent to the combat zone.

Sorry @admin, but I am going to need you to clear that up for me - I feel very provoked by that statement and the following questions may reflect that to some degree.

Are you saying that we should focus our PvP on the new PvP-zones and sail less in the OW thus leaving the "uninterested" captains alone? Are you discouraging hunting in the OW which is the very mechanic that you have worked so hard to implement throughout the past 3 years in favour of a tournament based mission-type inspired by the failed NA Legends??

Are you even going so far as to insinuate, that the very players who have worked so hard to help and support you in your OW PvP, are not "combat oriented captains"? It's just a very disappointing statement to see from you considering all the work we've put into your project.

Personally I do not mind the PvP-zones much. As long as they do not affect the OW PvP.

The "kindergarden-PvP'ers" can go to their PvP-Safezone where they are guranteed a reward with minimal risk. But I'd like you to properly compensate those of us doing OW PvP since that is much harder, more time-consuming, more uncertain and much more expensive. And most of all - I'd appreciate some acknowledgement of what we do rather than be reduced to "non-combat oriented captains".

Thank you for your understanding, I hope I have not provoked anyone like i myself was provoked.

Edited by Percival Merewether
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1 hour ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Broken system aka the map is too big. So offering a hotspot is a good solution.

Why do you prefer people camping infront of capitals to fight vs 3x or more BR because thats the only fight they get and searching hours for enemies?

 

Is the PvP mission perfect? No and it never will. But with some fixes to BR its a good opportunity to find a quick fight.

They said they add paints for PvP marks.

The map is only too big because there is no incentive to use all of it. Fix the trading system, the map is no longer too big, and the PvP becomes meaningful to boot. It all comes back to not having a developed trading system/economic game.

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5 minutes ago, BPHick said:

The map is only too big because there is no incentive to use all of it. Fix the trading system, the map is no longer too big, and the PvP becomes meaningful to boot. It all comes back to not having a developed trading system/economic game.

The hardcoded limit of players per server out of experience is 2500. Divide that by 11 to see how many players are in the 'capital areas' of each nation. You will realize that there are plenty of places you will hardly find any player even with those amounts of payers. 

 

I would prefer a quarter of the map we have right now. 

Edited by Trashman

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Broken system aka the map is too big. So offering a hotspot is a good solution.

Why do you prefer people camping infront of capitals to fight vs 3x or more BR because thats the only fight they get and searching hours for enemies?

 

Is the PvP mission perfect? No and it never will. But with some fixes to BR its a good opportunity to find a quick fight.

They said they add paints for PvP marks.

the map is only too big because we do not have the people to fill it.  See my posts about the lack features for casual players and the devs catering to only their devout hardcore PVP base.  Casual players like to hop on for an hour or 2, bang out a mission or so some light hunting, craft or haul some crap around and log off.  The PVP zones is on paper a good solution for these folks, but then they run into a large WO or Prussian gank fleet...die immediately and then say hello kitty it.  Which is basically why the zones have already lost most of their appeal.  

I would prefer PVP to happen organically throughout the map in the manner of hunting or counter hostility type of functions.  To bring this full circle back to the game lacking the proper ability to pull casual players out of the safe zones, if the mechanics guided/forced/encouraged players to leave the zones to achieve their crafting or farming...it would create organic PVP that most of us enjoy.  The flag system was good for creating this and the desire to go back to times like that is why so many of us pushed for the raid mechanic.  The Patrol Mission on the other hand sounds like a good idea with forced battles you cannot leave, but all they really do is support the gank method of playing.  It was said in the posts prior to the launch of the zones that they would simply turn into gank fests and color me surprised....they turned into gank fests.

The game lacks players.  about 90% of all our issues with this game revolve around a lack of people sailing around.  With 2500 people on average in the game even ports way out in the gulf would mean something and be used regularly.  More people sailing around would create organic PVP and folks trying to dodge heavy traffic areas would create organic PVP in parts of the map that we very seldom see PVP in right now.  How do we get more people?  Fix your content to appeal to the casual player.  Stop trying to focus on fixing PVP to make it work for 500 people and create content that will satisfy 2000 people.  Varied PVE missions.  More complex crafting / econ systems.  Bounty boards.  Raids....whatever.  The ideas have been throw up on the forums for years now, but for some reason we keep recycling stupid shit like conquest marks /= victory marks and PVP events /= patrol missions.  It's like trying to clean and wax your car every weekend so it looks nice, but totally neglect fixing the engine.  It'll look nice in your driveway, but no one will use it.

Edited by ChristenTrash
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1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

Sorry @admin, but I am going to need you to clear that up for me - I feel very provoked by that statement and the following questions may reflect that to some degree.

Are you saying that we should focus our PvP on the new PvP-zones and sail less in the OW thus leaving the "uninterested" captains alone? Are you discouraging hunting in the OW which is the very mechanic that you have worked so hard to implement throughout the past 3 years in favour of a tournament based mission-type inspired by the failed NA Legends??

Are you even going so far as to insinuate, that the very players who have worked so hard to help and support you in your OW PvP, are not "combat oriented captains"? It's just a very disappointing statement to see from you considering all the work we've put into your project.

Personally I do not mind the PvP-zones much. As long as they do not affect the OW PvP.

The "kindergarden-PvP'ers" can go to their PvP-Safezone where they are guranteed a reward with minimal risk. But I'd like you to properly compensate those of us doing OW PvP since that is much harder, more time-consuming, more uncertain and much more expensive. And most of all - I'd appreciate some acknowledgement of what we do rather than be reduced to "non-combat oriented captains".

Thank you for your understanding, I hope I have not provoked anyone like i myself was provoked.

I think you should read the post carefully first and show outrage second.

There are 2 groups of captains

1. Those who are interested in non-consensual pvp.
2. Those who are not interested in non-consensual pvp (uninterested captains)

Group 1 will never find group 2 in patrol zones. They will only find them by hunting. You can only find uninterested captains by hunting. Group 2 players will never go to the patrol zones. Group 1 players dont need special invites and will not only hunt everywhere,  but also will happily arrive to combat zones as they might have more pvp there (Unlike group 2 players)

Original phrase: but you can still hunt other uninterested captains elsewhere. combat oriented captains are ok in being sent to the combat zone.

 


But i am going to need you to clear this for me:
Show me how you could transform a phrase - pvp players should hunt for uninterested captains into - you should leave uninterested captains alone?
With quotes

how this

3 hours ago, admin said:



but you can still hunt other uninterested captains elsewhere. combat oriented captains are ok in being sent to the combat zone.

suddenly translates to this 

 

1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

Are you saying that we should focus our PvP on the new PvP-zones and sail less in the OW thus leaving the "uninterested" captains alone? A

You must do it because we need to decide if we should phrase our posts differently so everyone will understand them as they are written. 

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1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

 I feel very provoked by that statement and the following questions may reflect that to some degree.

Are you even going so far as to insinuate, that the very players who have worked so hard to help and support you in your OW PvP, are not "combat oriented captains"? It's just a very disappointing statement to see from you considering all the work we've put into your project.

Thank you for your understanding, I hope I have not provoked anyone like i myself was provoked.

I will try to provoke you by saying this.

You seem to get provoked too easily for a hardened pvp player; Judging by the leaderboards and your response, you only camp capitals and jump to missions in your fail-fit ships. You are not a pvp player just like every carebear who liked your post. 

If it only takes one post (from a non-native speaker) that you did not understand to withdraw you support and turn into an outraged PMS pussy, then your support was always fake. 
 

Edited by jonnysweden
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16 minutes ago, jonnysweden said:



Judging by the leaderboards and your response, you only camp capitals and jump to missions in your fail-fit ships. You are not a pvp player just like every carebear who liked your post. 

I assume you have some kind of evidence to back this claim up? I can also make wild assumptions without basis. For example I ASSUME by you not displaying your in game name on the forums you have done nothing of note within the game itself and that you have lost ships to people jumping your battles?

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35 minutes ago, admin said:

I think you should read the post carefully first and show outrage second.

Let's take a look at the meaning of my post now you so thoroughly explained yours.

35 minutes ago, admin said:

There are 2 groups of captains

1. Those who are interested in non-consensual pvp.
2. Those who are not interested in non-consensual pvp (uninterested captains)

DISCLAIMER: I'm not sure I've got the definition down 100% but we'll see if I understand correctly.

This is a much better definition than your initial definition of being a "combat oriented captain" and possibly a "non-combat oriented captain"?, I can accept the two groups. I am however curious as to whether a player sailing in the Open World truly is an uninterested captain?

I never personally hunt in safe-zones, but I'm assuming these "uninterested captains" were aware of the risks of leaving the safezone before they went exploring? And when people explore in combat ships, do they not intend to fight? I thought all PvP outside the safe-zone was consensual. It's important to say that I also hunt traders, but I've always seen that as a natural part of the OW (PvP server after all). And remember, Hunters hunt hunters, you could argue that that is group 2 vs group 2, right? thus both being "combat oriented captains"?

3 hours ago, admin said:

but you can still hunt other uninterested captains elsewhere. combat oriented captains are ok in being sent to the combat zone.

What I was provoked by and what I wanted cleared up is whether or not a PvP'er of group 1 (Working by the assumtion that we were both aware of the above mentioned definitions before I posted) is a "combat oriented captain" or a "non-combat oriented captain"? I went under the assumption that a "non-combat oriented captain" was a PVE'er or Trader trying to make a few PvP marks through ganking in fir/fir.

I do not consider myself as such and there are many players around who plays like me who are very unhappy with the current tournament-like based rules you have imposed on the PvP-zones. I'm not interested in being sent to the PvP-Zone because of the rules imposed on the battles there. does that make me a "non-combat oriented captain?" I do not find that to be a fair definition for those of us who hunt in the OW.

35 minutes ago, admin said:

You must do it because we need to decide if we should phrase our posts differently so everyone will understand them as they are written. 

In hindsight you should probably have worded your post differently, just as I should have. But I do hope that you see my point of view now; just as I now understand your definition of a "combat oriented captain". But let's discuss patch 21 and the future instead:

Are there any plans to even out the rewards for OW hunting vs PvP-zones? eg.: allow us to take a mission to hunt any enemy ships on the map and be reward for such?

For the record, I'm not about to end my support for this game as @jonnysweden claims - why would I? It's pretty damn good ;)

23 minutes ago, jonnysweden said:

I will try to provoke you by saying this.

You seem to get provoked too easily for a hardened pvp player; Judging by the leaderboards and your response, you only camp capitals and jump to missions in your fail-fit ships. You are not a pvp player just like every carebear who liked your post. 

If it only takes one post (from a non-native speaker) that you did not understand to withdraw you support and turn into an outraged PMS pussy, then your support was always fake. 
 

For the Moderators and Admin: Do we accept people calling others "Outraged PMS Pussies" on the forum?

@Wraith @Cabral @MassimoSud @SKurj , it would appear you fine gentlemen are carebears :D:P

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Oh my god...

I am still waiting for chests and paints for pvp marks, as Admin announced...

When, dear admin ;(

Edited by Wojtek
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5 hours ago, Wojtek said:

Oh my god...

I am still waiting for chests and paints for pvp marks, as Admin announced...

When, dear admin ;(

As soon as you sell me your 700 PvP marks for low price.

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10 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Exactly his point, it failed so why are we trying to make the OW like that too? I have no issues with the zones myself, but I think it was stupid to bump up the rewards to some insane numbers before any ROE/BR limits was put into place cause all it did was encourage more ganks and uneven fights that you have no hope to escape cause no one can leave the fight.

OW has plenty of room for all types of play. I don't see why people are complaining about the toury style pvp battles, Until we have 1500 players all traveling the OW simultaneously to casually run into each other then we need PVP missions to focus that. It's not like you're getting lobbied up and sent off to the battle with free ships and repair, the only thing different about it from regular ow hunting is that you always know where the battle's are happening.

Once BR balancing is implemented then the ROE will be fine, it's high risk high reward PVP. If people are playing and enjoying it then what's the problem? We need more of these for PVE too, epic events are never seriously done, they're hard to find, very hard to do and the rewards aren't always good which defeats the purpose..

Still, these battles are enjoyable, even with a few gank they're still much more enjoyable than a regular OW gank because you always have a chance if you get back up,  but that hopefully won't be a problem with balancing. Other than than yesterday I had 5 straight battles in a row, very high quality battles. Consensual PVP is much better, people join to fight and you rarely if every get into long overdrawn chases dictated by how many sail repairs you can pop in a row.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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7 hours ago, jonnysweden said:

I will try to provoke you by saying this.

You seem to get provoked too easily for a hardened pvp player; Judging by the leaderboards and your response, you only camp capitals and jump to missions in your fail-fit ships. You are not a pvp player just like every carebear who liked your post. 

Pretty much what I assumed he was... glad someone could confirm.

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1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

Remind me again... What have I done to you...? And how is that a confirmation of anything?

Well people hating on the Patrol missions and claiming they take away from the OW PvP are full of ****. OW PvP is all about ganking and chasing fir/fir cowards for hours.... I like the concept of OW PvP but in reality with the low player numbers we have it's just a waste of time and the Patrol event finally does away with the hour long chases and speed boats - what's not to love if you aren't a coward in a overmodded gankboat? Is there ganking in patrol mission? Yeah, of course - just like in OW. Are there many cowards that only join the winning side with higher BR? Yeah this aswell - just like in OW. But at least there is no running. People go to the patrol zone for fighting. and you can bring ships that are actually built for combat, while those that bring fully modded expensive ships actually are at a risk.

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NA is a simulation sandbox and one of the best things, after the fighting mechanics, is the open world, something that makes it almost unique!
For this reason I like NA, for the "freedom" it offers to the players and for the chance to play with different approaches:
TRADER: once the economy is better defined, I believe that even traders can be decisive in the game, especially in clans that do a lot of RvR. At the moment perhaps this aspect of the game is not really the best, but I hope that the developers will want to improve it. More traders, more open world, more PvP (this is ultimately a PvP server!). Devs please try to invent some escorting mission to the traders, it could be useful and fun.
CRAFTER: I am not particularly favorable to the RNG, but I must confess that this has a little revitalized crafting. Perhaps you could balance the RNG with the xp of crafting, so that the more experience you accumulatein crafting, the more likely you are to make a better ship. Perhaps some ports could give a greater possibility to craft ships with particular refits (as in the past with the regional refits, but with the RNG component).
PRIVATEERS: many clans and players, including myself, are more like privateers than  captains of the national navy. For them the open world is fundamental, and having a ship that is the right balance between speed, agility and fire / boarding power is a difficult thing to achieve. These players have little or no interest in having the Patrol missions, because they are free spirits and know where to find action thanks to their experience (trading routes, port battles, free cities ...). But a populated open world is needed, otherwise they are destined to extinction.

RvR CAPTAIN: the major clans are mainly interested in RvR, they do trading and crafting for the need of the game (finding resources and gold to support the war). Even here I think it would be appropriate to make more useful ports, diversifying the distribution of resources better and across the map. Perhaps it would also be appropriate to reinsert the possibility that in some ports the ships are crafted with special refits (nothing of OP) but simply to make sense and a utility to several ports in the map. These clans are those that keep the game alive, perhaps a more detailed clan management would be necessary. My dream is that we move from a logic of Nation vs Nation to a logic of Clans vs Clans, but perhaps the effort of programming is not possible to sustain (precisely it is and will remain a dream of many).
NEW PLAYER: this is the "category" to be protected better, as if it were a protected "species"! Too many players leave the game after a few hours because they find it frustrating and too challenging, generating bad reviews that produce the effect of having less and less new players. With the tutorial and the next UI, I think we will have some improvements. The protected zones are ok, but they are too big, some are really excessive! The capital and a couple of nearby ports are more than enough as protected areas where to do missions and where to find the "basic" resources for crafting. For the rest you have to venture into the open world and be aware that you are in a PvP server, but only after having gained a minimum of experience and knowledge of the game mechanics.
CASUAL PLAYERS: NA is a game that requires at least a couple of hours of time (if you want to be a PvP player), if the time is less you can do some mission or a bit of trading. However, devs are developing NAL which will certainly satisfy the PvPers category with less time available.
So what do I think of the patrol missions?
Frankly they do not respect my concept of freedom I want in a simulative sandbox game.
Waiting for NAL and for those players with less time available I would suggest rather a modality like that of the FLEET PRACTICE with some differences.

Waiting list where the server decides, based on the battle rating, where the single player can join, keeping the BR balanced. Do you want to join in a group? The server only makes you join when there is another group or a series of single players who balance the BR. The battle remains always open and all join in the same point (one on each side) adding to the battle from time to time up to the limit allowed by the server that handle it. The battle takes place within the well-known circle of death but must give the possibility of short excursions outside (as in the old PBs). It would be nice to be able to offer rooms with passwords in order to organize agreed challenges. All of this interests me very little but it would offer more "fair" fights as many seem to have been asking for some time (or maybe it's just a fake request?). Today, however, you must arrive in the patrol area organized in groups, otherwise it always ends up in unbalanced battles from which you can not even escape! And all the brave captains joining from the side with major BR (in the face of all fair fighters!). So for the "solo" players there is no space! I really hope that these patrol missions or these game modes per instance will be eliminated in the release of the game and include in NAL where it is right that they are, in a sandbox game do not really make sense (it's my personal opinion).
Good job developers!

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The patrol zone kills trade.....

Any trader caught within the zone also can only sink...  regardless of if they have the patrol mission or not

Edited by SKurj
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5 hours ago, Trash unworthy of the Sea said:

Well people hating on the Patrol missions and claiming they take away from the OW PvP are full of ****. OW PvP is all about ganking and chasing fir/fir cowards for hours.... I like the concept of OW PvP but in reality with the low player numbers we have it's just a waste of time and the Patrol event finally does away with the hour long chases and speed boats - what's not to love if you aren't a coward in a overmodded gankboat? Is there ganking in patrol mission? Yeah, of course - just like in OW. Are there many cowards that only join the winning side with higher BR? Yeah this aswell - just like in OW. But at least there is no running. People go to the patrol zone for fighting. and you can bring ships that are actually built for combat, while those that bring fully modded expensive ships actually are at a risk.

So you are one of these players that blames the other captain's mods for his own losses I see.  When I go out, I go out to fight. I assure you my ships are built for combat and are far from "fir/fir coward ships". Open world PvP is all about the hunt and not knowing what you will encounter, which is the main appeal for me. Going to those PvP mission zones is a simple matter of numbers, you don't have to defeat your enemy, you just have to last long enough for them to get caught out by the shrinking circle. You claim that the ships taken to the zones are built for combat, but in fact they are built to take hits long enough to allow them to wait for the circle to shrink. Especially when you have a group of these ships only attacking smaller groups or single ships. When we go out to hunt, often we will encounter a group of ships and fairly often will find ourselves outnumbered and outgunned yet a lot of the time we still win those battles because we are able to use tactics to slow the fight down and pick off ships strategically, that can't be done in those pvp missions and I think that's why a lot of these players like them. In the pvp missions the side with the bigger numbers is almost certainly guaranteed the win, whereas in open world pvp the numbers don't mean anything and I think this is what scares them. Especially now that they cannot see who they will be attacking or who is about to attack them.

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Lets be real if your a trade ship and you knowingly sail into a pvp area that is marked on the map with loads of people dying in that area, instead of taking a 15 min detour you deserve to be sunk.

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