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Banished Privateer

How demasted ships sail?

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The rudder only works when water is moving over it at speed. Lose speed and you are basically turning a piece of drift wood.

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3 hours ago, Trashed Privateer said:

I experienced that in many battles, without some masts ships turn into wind, there is no way to sail them. Rudder is useless.

Didn't the devs change it so that the auto skipper no longer compensates for the lost mast(s)? It is especially a problem if you lose the foremast I believe.

Could that be the issue?

Edited by NethrosDefectus

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5 hours ago, Cornelius Trash said:

The natural state for a ship is to turn into the wind. Aerodynamincs do this -> leeway!

I think from experience the more natural state is for a ship to lay beam on to the sea when not under power, that is why it is advisable when drifting to stream a sea anchor to bring the ships head into the seas. I think hydrodynamics has more effect on ships especially when they have no masts or sails.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I think from experience the more natural state is for a ship to lay beam on to the sea when not under power, that is why it is advisable when drifting to stream a sea anchor to bring the ships head into the seas. I think hydrodynamics has more effect on ships especially when they have no masts or sails.

Pretty sure OP is talking about a ship with no foremast though, and main/mizzen still standing.

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2 hours ago, maturin said:

Pretty sure OP is talking about a ship with no foremast though, and main/mizzen still standing.

Mostly when mizzen mast is standing or I when I had lower section of foremast and mizzen. Both situations I would sail about 3-4 knots and there was no way to prevent ship from turning into wind, dead in irons.

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5 hours ago, Trashed Privateer said:

Mostly when mizzen mast is standing or I when I had lower section of foremast and mizzen. Both situations I would sail about 3-4 knots and there was no way to prevent ship from turning into wind, dead in irons.

IRL you would be pretty boned if you only had the mizzen.

But if the loss of the foremast or foretopmast completely overrides the rudder, then that is probably overmodeled.

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23 hours ago, maturin said:

Pretty sure OP is talking about a ship with no foremast though, and main/mizzen still standing.

In that case I agree that the vessel would seek the wind as the turning center of the vessel is most likely around the mainmast or maybe even forward of the mainmast so any driving force would also induce a turning force which would make the bow turn into the wind. It would be hard for the rudder to overcome that turning force with the unbalanced sail plan.

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33 minutes ago, Archaos said:

In that case I agree that the vessel would seek the wind as the turning center of the vessel is most likely around the mainmast or maybe even forward of the mainmast so any driving force would also induce a turning force which would make the bow turn into the wind. It would be hard for the rudder to overcome that turning force with the unbalanced sail plan.

The center of pivot is slightly forward of the mainmast. IRL they could bring the center of effort farther forward by feathering the yards of the mizzen or furling the sails, but we can't do that.

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having only a mizzen will basically turn your ship into a weather vane. Sounds pretty realistic. Dunno exactly how the balance should lay when you are only missing the foremast though.

Edited by Knobby

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10 hours ago, maturin said:

The center of pivot is slightly forward of the mainmast. IRL they could bring the center of effort farther forward by feathering the yards of the mizzen or furling the sails, but we can't do that.

If you only have the main and mizzen and the center of pivot is at or slightly forward of the mainmast then all the turning effort will always turn the ship head to wind no matter how you trim the sails. If the center of pivot is aft of the mainmast then you have some possibility of achieving a balance but due to the closeness on the mainmast to the center of pivot the turning force generated to counter the mizzen will be small.

The excerpt from the attached book explains quite well why with only a main and mizzen mast the vessel would seek the wind.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8JFxjZdAeZEC&lpg=PA72&ots=Ngvoy6x3XJ&dq=center of rotation on 3 masted sailing ship&pg=PA72-IA2#v=onepage&q=center of rotation on 3 masted sailing ship&f=true

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On 3/10/2018 at 5:22 AM, Trashed Privateer said:

Mostly when mizzen mast is standing or I when I had lower section of foremast and mizzen. Both situations I would sail about 3-4 knots and there was no way to prevent ship from turning into wind, dead in irons.

In reality in this situation you could balance the sails by adjusting the mizzen sail to balance what you have left of the foremast, but as Maturin points out, in the game we cannot adjust individual sails so there will be an imbalance and the vessel will seek the wind.

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53 minutes ago, Archaos said:

If you only have the main and mizzen and the center of pivot is at or slightly forward of the mainmast then all the turning effort will always turn the ship head to wind no matter how you trim the sails. If the center of pivot is aft of the mainmast then you have some possibility of achieving a balance but due to the closeness on the mainmast to the center of pivot the turning force generated to counter the mizzen will be small.

You don't need perfect balance; that's what the rudder is for. Once you furl the spanker, the mizzen topsail is very small, and you can quickly rig up some main staysails which straddle the center of effort.

Every vessel is different. I sail a ketch that goes upwind or downwind in a fresh breeze under mizzen alone, without a hint of weather helm.

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On 3/10/2018 at 12:48 PM, maturin said:

IRL you would be pretty boned if you only had the mizzen.

But if the loss of the foremast or foretopmast completely overrides the rudder, then that is probably overmodeled.

no its not over modeled

Take victory for example
With foremast completely destroyed (all jibs are lost too), Rudder cannot compensate for 700-1000 sq m of sails pushing your stern without counterbalancing movement from bow. You are pushed sideways, rudder cannot counter act it (to counter act it needs straight movement)

In real life an unbalanced demasted ship (no foremast) would either be towed or would have to jury rig something at bow to give some power there. 

 

On 3/10/2018 at 7:22 AM, Trashed Privateer said:

Mostly when mizzen mast is standing or I when I had lower section of foremast and mizzen. Both situations I would sail about 3-4 knots and there was no way to prevent ship from turning into wind, dead in irons.

If you have lower section of foremast left, remove topgallants and royals, and sail using courses and tops - you will have more balance then, but you will have to constantly use rudder anyway. Use visual clues - amount of sail on fore mast should be visually similar to stern mast
and maybe dont use autoskipper - better remove the sideforces by adjusting the yards.

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11 hours ago, admin said:

In real life an unbalanced demasted ship (no foremast) would either be towed or would have to jury rig something at bow to give some power there.

They could just furl the sails on the mizzen and there would be very little difference between center of effort and center of rotation.

A bigger problem would be the lack of forestays for the main.

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