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Slim McSauce

Capturable 4th-1st rates?

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56 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

So you want any captued ships because a captured ship can defeat a crafted one with much more difficulty?

...

"And imagine a fleet of 25PVE ships vs the same 25 crafted ships. Sure the crafted fleet will win. but while the PVE captured ships just dont mean anything, any single destroyed crafted ship will cause pure frustration"

What point are you even making here. I'm really confused.

You don't think captured ships are a problem, but they cause too much PVP therefore we shouldn't be able to use captured ships?

I'm just trying to follow your reasoning, and make sure it's not just because you have anti-PVE or anti-sandbox bias who says no to any change that could potentially affect the way you play the game without putting any thought in.

My point is, that no one will bother with crafting anymore. Why should he? If someone loses a good crafted ship to PVE ships he will just capture a PVE ship too.

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I think this can easily be tested. Just try it for two weeks and then decide if to keep it...

nobody really can predict mass behavior...

Edited by Trino

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25 minutes ago, Abram Svensson said:

My point is, that no one will bother with crafting anymore. Why should he? If someone loses a good crafted ship to PVE ships he will just capture a PVE ship too.

Alright I'm going to dismantle the argument. Are you ready? Here goes.

Do people still craft unrated-5th rates? -Yes they do, to say people would just not craft anymore couldn't be farther from the truth. People still craft frigates, people still buy crafted ships.

Would anyone use a captured ship over a crafted one if they had the choice? -No they wouldn't, if you lost a 5/5 pink ship to a 0 slot shabby captured ship....well..you're trash and you should probably be in captured ships until you know how to sail properly. "don't sail what you can't afford to lose"

Would people use a captured ship if they HAD to? -Yes, either you're going to have a ship to PVP with or you aren't. Applying your reasoning, you'd rather people not have ships to PVP with, a bad ethos for the game.

 

So yeah, I'm not convinced in your argument,.I don't think it holds any candles or is based in any actual evidence other than you don't want captured ships because you're afraid of losing your crafted ships to them. Sorry but that "negative" is far outweighed by the positives for the sandbox, economy and PVP promotion.

In your own words you say a 25v25 of crafting v captured 1st rates, the crafted would win. In your world the battle would never happen, because those 25 people wouldn't have a 1st rate to sail in.

So really it comes down to  A. Do we want to expand the sandbox and B. do we want to encourage more PVP for people who can't afford the high entry cost.

I'm all for both.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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I remember when they removed 3rd's from being captured. It was a big deal back then. It was abused but back then but you could also capture live oak ships (was the meta). So it was slightly broken. Now days however seems as you cant capture the better woods it would seem reasonable to test the theory and see if it is something that can be reintroduced.

Edited by Capt Trashal Early

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I'm all for any AI ship being captured, Granted in the past people used the fact they could just capture and throw them constantly at a port. 

Aslong as crafted ships are better than captured ones there will always be a desire for people to use crafted ships from buying/making over captured ones.

Allowing to capture AI ships above 5ths will not only increase pvp across the board in RvR and OW but people will get away from the worry of losing ships (unless you crafted a 5/5)

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6 minutes ago, rediii said:

What you will get in rvr is screeningfleets of 1st rates everywhere (once rvr is a thing again)

that's not a bad thing is it?

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Just now, Slim Jimmerson said:

that's not a bad thing is it?

Ofcourse it is lol

It's not only bullshit that 1st rates will be everywhere it is also bullshit that portbattlefleets have no chance to get to a portbattle anymore.

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1 hour ago, rediii said:

Ofcourse it is lol

It's not only bullshit that 1st rates will be everywhere it is also bullshit that portbattlefleets have no chance to get to a portbattle anymore.

Well couldn't you bring your own 1st rates to counter-screen? Then that's more PVP for more people that you otherwise wouldn't have had

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1 minute ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Well couldn't you bring your own 1st rates to counter-screen? Then that's more PVP for more people that you otherwise wouldn't have had

You go with 10 guys in the PB.

Enemy brings 10 guys of the PB fleet in 1sts

Wrecks the enemy 5k BR capped fleet in OW or just surrenders in a screening battle to mount the PB ship and go to PB.

Not much fun.

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1 hour ago, rediii said:

You go with 10 guys in the PB.

Enemy brings 10 guys of the PB fleet in 1sts

Wrecks the enemy 5k BR capped fleet in OW or just surrenders in a screening battle to mount the PB ship and go to PB.

Not much fun.

So people taking captured throw away 1st rates, throwing them away for screening, than jumping into PB from outpost?

rediii really that sounds fun as shit. Every PB starting with a massive clash of SOLS? 

I know you rvr players don't like to have your PBs messed with, I understand that it sucks to get screened out of a PB, but just think, screening is almost nonexistent, large 1st rate battles are almost nonexistent. Instead of having 25v25 1st rate battles inside port where that's the meta, have them outside. Anyone could capture a 1st rate so anyone could come, people would actually want to screen and have these stupidly gigantic battles.

That's why you hardly get any good rvr anymore. Getting a 1st rate is such a pain in the ass, no one wants to take theirs into battle (unless you're very confident in your production and skill) which not many nations are. This could be exactly what RVR needs to pick up again.

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No, I've noticed there's been in increasing amount of noise from a small minority of players wanting to make the game easier and risk free. In my opinion if you keep giving into them you will lose more players than you will gain/keep. The game is moving away from the experience and potential that drew the initial interest from people in the first place at an increasingly rapid pace as of late.

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10 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

No, I've noticed there's been in increasing amount of noise from a small minority of players wanting to make the game easier and risk free. In my opinion if you keep giving into them you will lose more players than you will gain/keep. The game is moving away from the experience and potential that drew the initial interest from people in the first place at an increasingly rapid pace as of late.

Stop using the vocal minority argument, I've been around since the game turned hardcore, I joined when it turned hardcore and I still consider it the best version of NA from not being to capture ANY ships to cannons costing as much as ships themselves.

But the game has changed since then, I've said more than I need to about not making the game more easier than it is. It's not even about that, it's a consistency issue. Back then you couldn't even capture frigates, but "vocal minority" called for it and we got it up to 5th rates which IMO was a HUGE mistake and undermined the shit out of the crafting economy and muddied the shit out of the market, which was now filling up with crap ships.

Now everything is different, you're 10 months late to the "don't make it easier" argument. Everything around the economy is already formed around the new casual NA. There is no easy going back to hardcore, the devs are better off moving forward on what they've been building on the last eight and a half months, not back-track again 
So go forward and open up SOL capture, it's not like it's gonna destroy the economy, the economy is already primed for easy to get ships, they are good and cost a lot like note ships, or they're cheap and shit like ANY captured ship. (we patrol players call them throwaways) :)

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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31 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Stop using the vocal minority argument, I've been around since the game turned hardcore, I joined when it turned hardcore and I still consider it the best version of NA from not being to capture ANY ships to cannons costing as much as ships themselves.

But the game has changed since then, I've said more than I need to about not making the game more easier than it is. It's not even about that, it's a consistency issue. Back then you couldn't even capture frigates, but "vocal minority" called for it and we got it up to 5th rates which IMO was a HUGE mistake and undermined the shit out of the crafting economy and muddied the shit out of the market, which was now filling up with crap ships.

Now everything is different, you're 10 months late to the "don't make it easier" argument. Everything around the economy is already formed around the new casual NA. There is no easy going back to hardcore, the devs are better off moving forward on what they've been building on the last eight and a half months, not back-track again 
So go forward and open up SOL capture, it's not like it's gonna destroy the economy, the economy is already primed for easy to get ships, they are good and cost a lot like note ships, or they're cheap and shit like ANY captured ship. (we patrol players call them throwaways) :)

What are you on about? For the last week you have been a very vocal advocate of making the game easier. I genuinely expect you to suggest that ships should not be lost in the patrol zone when sunk because having to buy a new one takes up too much time on top of having to sail two minutes from port to get back into the zone. There was a time you had to put effort into the game if you wanted something, now that's long gone and there's zero incentive to actually try and better yourself. It's far more rewarding to take the easy option and that in my opinion is what is driving players away.

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On 3/21/2018 at 2:17 PM, NethrosDefectus said:

What are you on about? For the last week you have been a very vocal advocate of making the game easier. I genuinely expect you to suggest that ships should not be lost in the patrol zone when sunk because having to buy a new one takes up too much time on top of having to sail two minutes from port to get back into the zone. There was a time you had to put effort into the game if you wanted something, now that's long gone and there's zero incentive to actually try and better yourself. It's far more rewarding to take the easy option and that in my opinion is what is driving players away.

I still don't know what your argument is suppose to be. We shouldn't do it because it makes the game slightly easier? That's a pretty lame excuse for a feature we're suppose to have anyway.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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Here's a compromise. Instead of 7th-1st rate capture have 7th-2nd rate capture. 1st rates are a special type of ship that deserves special treatment in how it's acquired to keep it valuable.

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6 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

I still don't know what your argument is suppose to be. We shouldn't do it because it makes the game slightly easier? That's a pretty lame excuse for a feature we're suppose to have anyway.

It is incredibly easy to capture a ship from the AI, that alone should be reason enough not to allow it. If you want a ship you should have to put in the effort it takes to get that ship. More than that, it should mean something when a ship is lost. What this game doesn't need is people throwing 1st rates away because they have a dozen more captured ones in the port they can replace it with. If you want to fight without risk or sailing time then I suggest fleet practice.

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Just now, NethrosDefectus said:

It is incredibly easy to capture a ship from the AI, that alone should be reason enough not to allow it. If you want a ship you should have to put in the effort it takes to get that ship. More than that, it should mean something when a ship is lost. What this game doesn't need is people throwing 1st rates away because they have a dozen more captured ones in the port they can replace it with. If you want to fight without risk or sailing time then I suggest fleet practice.

"put in the effort" Is capturing ships not effort?

and I just offered only 2nd rate and under capture since 1st rates have external value with being crafted with marks, in order to preserve that value

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1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

"put in the effort" Is capturing ships not effort?

and I just offered only 2nd rate and under capture since 1st rates have external value with being crafted with marks, in order to preserve that value

No, capturing ships from AI is no effort at all, it is incredibly easy to board AI.

You "offered" only 2nd rates? I wasn't aware we were negotiating

Edited by NethrosDefectus

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19 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

No, capturing ships from AI is no effort at all, it is incredibly easy to board AI.

You "offered" only 2nd rates? I wasn't aware we were negotiating

so you're in favor of getting rid of all ship capture?

 

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13 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

so you're in favor of getting rid of all ship capture?

 

I am against getting free line ships from AI definitely, but yes if it was up to me then no AI ship would be capturable (to keep) not including those in a player's fleet of course

 

Edited by NethrosDefectus

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On 21.3.2018 at 8:48 AM, Trino said:

I think this can easily be tested. Just try it for two weeks and then decide if to keep it...

nobody really can predict mass behavior...

No need to test this again.

We had this in game already, and it was BS.

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