Changes to how traders work within PvP

[NethrosDefectus]

It has always seemed strange to me that trade ships give Marks when sunk, both Combat and PvP Marks. I mean let's face it when a trader is sunk, you can't really call it combat and it isn't really proper PvP either. It should always be more beneficial to try and take the cargo than to use them to farm marks.

My suggestion is this:

No longer have trade ships give marks when sunk, instead make the cargo the desired reward. It could perhaps be beneficial to add a system whereby a trade ship when pulled into battle can "surrender itself for inspection" which would enable the attacker to pull alongside and inspect the cargo and then decide if they would like to take the ship and its contents or return the ship to the owner and let them on their way (or sink it if they are that way inclined but for no reward).

If I am hunting in say, Spanish waters and I inspect a ship's cargo and find it contains a hold full of cognac then there is no way I am going to cancel the trip and haul that all the way back to a free port. Currently my only option is to scuttle the ship for a few PvP marks. I mean let's face it, if someone is going to the trouble of transporting tea or cognac across the map then they clearly NEED the gold from that trade and all I've done for the sake of a few marks is set them back to square one. Instead this system would allow me to let them carry on transporting something which is of no use to me anyway. A hold full of teak on the other hand would be a different story and worth taking.

I've rambled a bit, but I think you get the idea 

Edited February 22, 2018 by NethrosDefectus
Terrible grammar and spelling

[Nelsons Barrel]

#maketraderslifeeasierthanitisalready

[Percival Merewether]

1 minute ago, Never Surrender said:

#maketraderslifeeasierthanitisalready

#makefirfirgankerslifeeasierthanitisalreadybylettingthemfarmdefencelesstradersandavoidrealpvp

[NethrosDefectus]

2 minutes ago, Never Surrender said:

#maketraderslifeeasierthanitisalready

Not at all, the system would still allow you to sink them if you want. And there is no saying they HAVE to surrender for inspection

[Nelsons Barrel]

1 minute ago, NethrosDefectus said:

Not at all, the system would still allow you to sink them if you want. And there is no saying they HAVE to surrender for inspection

Point is, that its super easy to reach the moneycap of this game if you just sail around and trade. Since introduction of those 'trade-goods' you get money just for sailing stuff from a to b. This has no influence on any wareconomy (e.g. deplete rescources for one nation). As a pvp player you are just interested in pvp marks, not in artificial trading goods you would have to sail from a to b, since you would have done the same trade route from start on if you are after those money makers. If you see a ship full of teak logs, you can currently still sink the ship, sail to the ship wreck and put all teak logs into your hold (by overloading your ship by multiple folds what you could hold in the first place). So i doubt there is any necessity right now in this game to just negate the only good thing you can do in this game (and that is sinking ships of course).

[NethrosDefectus]

21 minutes ago, Never Surrender said:

Point is, that its super easy to reach the moneycap of this game if you just sail around and trade. Since introduction of those 'trade-goods' you get money just for sailing stuff from a to b. This has no influence on any wareconomy (e.g. deplete rescources for one nation). As a pvp player you are just interested in pvp marks, not in artificial trading goods you would have to sail from a to b, since you would have done the same trade route from start on if you are after those money makers. If you see a ship full of teak logs, you can currently still sink the ship, sail to the ship wreck and put all teak logs into your hold (by overloading your ship by multiple folds what you could hold in the first place). So i doubt there is any necessity right now in this game to just negate the only good thing you can do in this game (and that is sinking ships of course).

No as a PvP player, I and most others are interested in PvP. The marks are just a bonus.

What difference does it make to you if someone is able to hit the money cap. The person himself said he did it by avoiding PvP hotspots. People who want to avoid PvP will always find a way, as is their right. (But that's another discussion)

You don't see an issue with being able to overload your ship like that? That is something that needs fixing, @admin needs to make it that you can't close the inspection window if your ship is over loaded.

I agree that trade goods as a whole need working on and it should always be more beneficial to transports useful resources but I believe that is something the devs are working on currently.

As far as I can see the only reason for being against this change is if someone relies solely on traders for their PvP Mark income. And if that is the case then they should perhaps consider diversifying their skillset 

Edited February 22, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Hethwill]

Many play for the MMO competition sandbox arena. Others play for the age of sail experience rp.

Traders giving marks is not correct. It should be about the prized goods. If captains wants marks they should prove themselves against warships.

Place for all.

[NethrosDefectus]

5 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Many play for the MMO competition sandbox arena. Others play for the age of sail experience rp.

Traders giving marks is not correct. It should be about the prized goods. If captains wants marks they should prove themselves against warships.

Place for all.

Well said

[Nelsons Barrel]

6 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Place for all. Traders giving marks is not correct. It should be about the prized goods. If captains wants marks they should prove themselves against warships.

I just put your last sentence in front of your oppinion, hope you see how ignorant your comment is.

25 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

As far as I can see the only reason for being against this change is if someone relies solely on traders for their PvP Mark income. And if that is the case then they should perhaps consider diversifying their skillset 

Again, a very ignorant view of the possible playstyles in this sandbox.

 

If you want to have place for everyone, everyone should be able to get pvp marks. If you are not good enough to get them through proper pvp against RUBLI, dron or prussians that sieging your capitals and smash every 20 vs 5 battle. Give those guys a chance to get those pvp marks by sinking traders. Diversity of gamestyle is key. The only way they could get marks is to farm their alt accounts or is that what you want to see more often?

Or are you the guys that also go to homeless people and tell them they shall change their lifestyle because it does not fit your view of the world?

Edited February 22, 2018 by Never Surrender

[NethrosDefectus]

21 minutes ago, Never Surrender said:

I just put your last sentence in front of your oppinion, hope you see how ignorant your comment is.

Again, a very ignorant view of the possible playstyles in this sandbox.

 

If you want to have place for everyone, everyone should be able to get pvp marks. If you are not good enough to get them through proper pvp against RUBLI, dron or russians that sieging your capitals and smash every 20 vs 5 battle. Give those guys a chance to get those pvp marks by sinking traders. Diversity of gamestyle is key. The only way they could get marks is to farm their alt accounts or is that what you want to see more often?

Or are you the guys that also go to homeless people and tell them they shall change their lifestyle because it does not fit your view of the world?

The very first reply to my original post was YOU "attacking" traders for the way they choose to play..............

The game needs to encourage players to challenge themselves, how will players ever hope to get to the likes of RUBLI (as you mentioned them) by only attacking traders. It is no different than the players who will only fight in a group, that is fine but they will never learn to fight by themselves if they don't try. Moscalb and MANY others got to the position they are in now because they challenge themselves and seek out the hard fight.

I do however feel that the conversation is going away from the original topic and I would ask that the moderators try and ensure people stay on track.

Edited February 22, 2018 by NethrosDefectus

[Hethwill]

@Never Surrender

I am not ignorant. And everyone gets PvP marks if they fight.

IF... they...FIGHT.

You going to fight or not ?...

-

Plus I absolutely disregarded your post as soon as my eyes caught the "homeless" analogy. This is a hobby provided by a comfortable quality of life. Do not rise above your status, please.

 

[Nelsons Barrel]

Just now, NethrosDefectus said:

The very first reply to my original post was YOU "attacking" traders for the way they choose to play..............

I only critized the unequality of choosing playstyles to reach a huge amount of money, not more not less. Every kind of playstyle should be rewarding if you succeed.

[Archaos]

16 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Many play for the MMO competition sandbox arena. Others play for the age of sail experience rp.

Traders giving marks is not correct. It should be about the prized goods. If captains wants marks they should prove themselves against warships.

Place for all.

Although I entirely agree with what you say, the issue in the game is if it becomes about the prized goods then how is the raider supposed to get away with the goods as usually they cannot carry all the goods in their hold and would need to take the captured trader to fleet which would make them easy to catch by the revenge fleet.

It again comes down to the distortion between battle instance and OW and how to handle it. I personally would love to have a system where trade goods were that important that raiders would prefer to have them over PvP marks, but how do you implement such a system?

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

During this period heavy reliance was placed on prize money gained from the capture and selling of merchant ships along with their cargo. The pay scales for sailors was abysmally low in all Navies even for Officers. In game this is reflected by the lack of gold and xp if you choose to cap a merchant, the reward becomes the value of the ship and cargo which was split between the Admiralty, officers and crews of all the ships involved in the capture. 

The only real issue is the value of ship and cargo should exceed the value of sinking it monetarily. So if you want xp then sink it, if you want the gold then cap it, Captain's choice.

Commerce Raiding has always been a factor in naval warfare, even as far back as the Phoenicians,  while commerce raiding in game has a very limited impact it still maintains a tactical benefit. Of course any Island nation is vulnerable to commerce raiding as most produce comes by sea at that is currently not reflected in game. 

If for example two or three ships carrying repairs for a PB were lost that would have an impact on the attacking side, like wise if crafting parts and materials were lost at sea that too should have an impact, so perhaps then trader's and the economy should play a greater role in game rather than be viewed as Cinderella.

[Christendom]

I like this idea.  

 

[Landsman]

2 hours ago, NethrosDefectus said:

It has always seemed strange to me that trade ships give Marks when sunk, both Combat and PvP Marks. I mean let's face it when a trader is sunk, you can't really call it combat and it isn't really proper PvP either. It should always be more beneficial to try and take the cargo than to use them to farm marks.

My suggestion is this:

No longer have trade ships give marks when sunk, instead make the cargo the desired reward. It could perhaps be beneficial to add a system whereby a trade ship when pulled into battle can "surrender itself for inspection" which would enable the attacker to pull alongside and inspect the cargo and then decide if they would like to take the ship and its contents or return the ship to the owner and let them on their way (or sink it if they are that way inclined but for no reward).

If I am hunting in say, Spanish waters and I inspect a ship's cargo and find it contains a hold full of cognac then there is no way I am going to cancel the trip and haul that all the way back to a free port. Currently my only option is to scuttle the ship for a few PvP marks. I mean let's face it, if someone is going to the trouble of transporting tea or cognac across the map then they clearly NEED the gold from that trade and all I've done for the sake of a few marks is set them back to square one. Instead this system would allow me to let them carry on transporting something which is of no use to me anyway. A hold full of teak on the other hand would be a different story and worth taking.

I've rambled a bit, but I think you get the idea 

I suggested this idea already and others probably did before me but the devs don't like it or don't care I guess... don't think it's a issue of effort, because this should be fairly easy to implement...

Also I disagree about the PvP marks... sinking a trader is per definition PvP and it doesn't matter how hard it is to sink them... just look at Darkjoker farming noobs at KPR with his Wasa... should he not get marks for it either ( yeah actually he shouldn't but PvP marks are soon worthless anyways  )? If you want to make PvP mark rewards about effort then only max rank players should give PvP marks. We have greenzones where noobs can be safe and missions give plenty enough gold. If I find a trader ( that isn't a new player ) I don't want his garbage or his ship, I want to sink him and get a reward for doing so. People farm PvP marks already and they keep losing value anyways... and now you want to remove them for legit kills only because it's a trader? I know a mate who used to play this game mainly to hunt traders, because it was his thing to roleplay(?) as pirate and I think there are more like him. And yes he was a scrub but let's be honest 90% of players in this game are scrubs and easy kills that should give no PvP marks according to your logic.

Either we remove PvP marks altogether and bring some PvP rank / PvP reputation system instead or leave as it is. PvP rank / reputation would work with this cargo inspection mechanic btw... if you spare a trader you get a bit of rank / reputation. But let's not start dreaming again...

Edited February 22, 2018 by Landsman

[victor]

3 hours ago, NethrosDefectus said:

It has always seemed strange to me that trade ships give Marks when sunk, both Combat and PvP Marks. I mean let's face it when a trader is sunk, you can't really call it combat and it isn't really proper PvP either. It should always be more beneficial to try and take the cargo than to use them to farm marks.

My suggestion is this:

No longer have trade ships give marks when sunk, instead make the cargo the desired reward. It could perhaps be beneficial to add a system whereby a trade ship when pulled into battle can "surrender itself for inspection" which would enable the attacker to pull alongside and inspect the cargo and then decide if they would like to take the ship and its contents or return the ship to the owner and let them on their way (or sink it if they are that way inclined but for no reward).

If I am hunting in say, Spanish waters and I inspect a ship's cargo and find it contains a hold full of cognac then there is no way I am going to cancel the trip and haul that all the way back to a free port. Currently my only option is to scuttle the ship for a few PvP marks. I mean let's face it, if someone is going to the trouble of transporting tea or cognac across the map then they clearly NEED the gold from that trade and all I've done for the sake of a few marks is set them back to square one. Instead this system would allow me to let them carry on transporting something which is of no use to me anyway. A hold full of teak on the other hand would be a different story and worth taking.

I've rambled a bit, but I think you get the idea 

why not just add a "ransom option" screen at the beginning of the fight:

1) you tag a trader and start the instance

2) before the timer of the battle start ticking you can see the content of the trader ship and negotiate with the trader a fair amount of gold to release him.

3) if you reach an agreement, you get the gold and the trader comes out the instance with a "no tag flag" (to prevent serial ransoming) of 30 minutes

4) otherwise the battle goes on like now (but with no PVP mark in case you sink or capture the trader).

Edited February 22, 2018 by victor

[victor]

21 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

When I see a player with stupid trade goods, I always sink him and cargo. That gives me some sort of a reward.

you are sick, man. Really!

Edited February 22, 2018 by victor

[Eyesore]

25 minutes ago, victor said:

2) before the timer of the battle start ticking you can see the content of the trader ship and negotiate with the trader a fair amount of gold to release him.

I'm sorry, but if anybody wants to know what I have as cargo, they can board me first.

Negotiating with a trader ... sure, that will happen.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Many play for the MMO competition sandbox arena. Others play for the age of sail experience rp.

Traders giving marks is not correct. It should be about the prized goods. If captains wants marks they should prove themselves against warships.

Place for all.

Have you never heard of the orders to disrupt or destroy trade?  It's a been a long standing war pratice to attack a nations trade line and stop the flow of trade ships.  Do you really thingk they brought back all that cargo and ships every time?  No they normally load the expensive stuff which is prob in the captains cabin/chest and than scuttle the ship if they can't take it back as a prize.  So as @Banished Privateer so greatly adds below the prize is your reward for destroying the ship or the cargo/ship depending on what your actions are and how deep  behind the enemy lines.  I have sat behind enemy lines for a long time in an LGV before the wipe doing nothing but hunting trade ships and small frigates.  I taken a trinc once with that very ship and helped take a Bucc with it.  This was all pre-wipe too but also was gold marines days (I used Purple).  I didn't use the LGV to carry cargo back I used it to trick folks into thinking I was making trade runs and they would attack me and foolishly rage board me thinking I was just a trade ship AFK sailing.

 

45 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I've seen Indiamen and LGVs used for PvP and that's what I did. Now even small traders have guns. Not mentioning LGV Refit being a compromise between tradeship and warship. I use it personally for little trading and smuggling. When I see a player with stupid trade goods, I always sink him and cargo. That gives me some sort of a reward. When cargo is decent, I capture the ship and haul the cargo (no battle rewards, loot is the prize).

What you're asking for is no rewards for hunter if he doesn't want to keep the cargo that sucks. No rewards for effort, for fight. Let's be honest:

1. Who's fault it is when trader doesn't equip his ship with guns?

2. Who's fault it is when trader doesn't take repairs, because he wants more cargo space?

3. Who's fault it is that trader doesn't use smaller but very safe trade ships? e.g. Traders Lynx. Try catching my traders lynx (full cargo) and I will salute you.

4. Who's fault it is that traders don't use a warship for escort or don't ask/hire other players for escort?

5. Who's fault it is that traders use crappy ships easy to catch/kill, without good perms/knowledge? Ask me how many times I caught something like Teak/WO Indiaman or Live Oak / Crew Space LGV. 

Current formula is simple and fair. More risk/careless = more income. More security/investment = more safety. 

There are some great and famous traders like Tuck that almost never get caught and are very succesful.

I love traders with no guns, easy pickigns with things like Privateers and now the Prince.  Even more when I find they have no repairs.   Even the LGV can some times do better than the tug boat Indianman (which I taken with a basic cutter before).   Even more love it when they have no escorts....even more fun is when they cry some one sank all there trade ships while they where doing trade runs in PVP hot zones (La Tort?).

Honesly you don't get much in marks for trade ships, for me it's more just to get them out of the waters if needed and cheap rewards some times you find something nice on them.  Like we caught one with all the mats for a 1st rate and we sailed it back and crafted a free first rate out of it and than scuttle the indinaman.  As a hunter we should get to pick what we want, the cargo or the reward for scuttling the ship.

[Barbancourt]

45 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Let's be honest:

1. Who's fault it is when trader doesn't equip his ship with guns?

Let's be honest, guns are irrelevant on a trader ship.  Do you somehow feel brave because a t-brig with only 60 crew shot its pop-guns at your endymion and you survived?   And stop with the "escort" nonsense.  Nobody has time to waste "escorting" trade ships.  If you fleet your own warship with a trade ship you are just slowing yourself down to make it much more likely that you get caught more often and lose additional ships, plus giving the enemy additional easy rewards. 

 

[Hethwill]

Texas, uniform world balance.

Do we even want trade ? Do we even need trade ?

Is it of national importance or is it only vital to the individual ?

Let's be honest  

Anyone wanting to emulate trade wars will go for the prize cargo. As the line goes for any sea rover type in history - no prey, no pay.

But by all means, keep the marks and everything.

Actually I would remove the economy from the game at this stage. All for Marks. End of problems, everyone keeps rinsing and repeating aimlessly whatever the reason that makes them press sail

Then there would be no traders and everyone sails warships. Everyone happy.

 

 

[Guest]

You can also escort your own damn traders with the fleet perk. Sale a mercury with a t-brig in fleet and shoot the sales of anyone who attacks till the t-brig escapes. You lose a cheap mercury and your expensive cargo goes back to port. 

[Farrago]

I'd rather see one world currency and all marks go away but that seems unlikely to happen. So...

PVP marks awarded for a kill of a warship.

Trader Marks awarded for kill of trade ship.

Trader Marks awarded for the success of trade runs outside the safe zone.

Bonus PVP Marks or Trader Marks (depending on the prize) for returning the prize ship safely  to one of your nation's ports and turning it over to the Admiralty.

Trade and Crafting Perks move to the Admiralty as purchasable Mods that benefit a trader/crafter.

[GrubbyZebra]

No PvP marks for traders, a few combat marks are ok (these two need to be separated in PvP battles).
Give marks for capturing ships, not just sinking. This has several benefits for all different players.