Luck

[McCullogh]

I would suggest you incorporate Luck into the game somehow.  The Sea and wind are capricious entities and an odd wave or unexpected gust of wind can set you up or put you back...a lucky shot (cannon fire was very in-exact) could knock away a spar and bring your enemy into range.

 

Now I know MMO players like a very predictable world in which the proper set of magic skills used in a particular order bring about an expected result...but I think adding in luck could really give this game a flavor that would be unusual.

 

Thanks!

[Harrow]

Yet luck is pretty much a superstitious thing to begin with. What's important to note here is that if 'luck' is incorporated into the game, then you can safely incorporate shooting fireballs from your eyes and being able to buy voodoo dolls that give you hypersonic speed and let your ship dodge cannons. I might be exaggerating a little, but as far as I've understood, Naval Action isn't really aiming for the stereotypical "MMO". Just reading "magic skills" here made me shiver.

 

With all due respect, DangerMonkey, don't you think that the game would be much better off without trivial and, let's be honest, unrealistic things like luck?

 

I think it would be much more entertaining to know that a player that has started playing 1 hour ago has the SAME chance to get into a storm than a player that's been playing the game for over 1000 hours. What do you think? It puts your skills to the test, whether you're new or an old sea dog, plus it brings more unpredictability to the game. I think THAT is the kind of flavor we should be pouring on here.

[McCullogh]

Perhaps I did not convey my message well, and if you were able to so mis-read my suggestion, then Game labs might too...so I will attempt to clarify.  I, like you, am opposed to Magic Skills and I want a more naval experience.  I agree completely with your last paragraph about storms and think its a great idea.

 

Perhaps Chance or Randomness are are a better words than luck.  I use the term luck only because it is is the term the sailors used and they believed in it as strongly as they believed the sea was wet.  In no way shape or form would I want lucky idols, voodoo spells or some such nonsense available to help increase the chance  of a beneficial outcome.

 

We both play PotBS (and I think Game Labs is familiar with it as well) and they have several "magic" skills so I will use that as an example.

 

Lets say..Cut Shroud for one.  Every time you use it it slows you enemy 25% every time.  That's very unrealistic and too predictable. 

 

Gunnery was a very in-exact science and you might empty your broadside into an enemy's stern and blow away the wheel and his rudder leaving him unable to steer...or your shots might pass from stern to stem and hit nothing vital.

 

If you aim for the rigging of my enemy and a "Lucky Shot" , you might cut away some very important rigging, bringing your enemy's ship up into the wind...or an "unlucky shot" might pass through a sail and cause no real harm

.

What I'm saying, is that naval combat  was unpredictable....and that very chance of running into that storm is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Blackie]

I agree with the introduction of randomness in computing outcomes. Naval battles were rather leisurely affairs since the strength and direction of the wind, the individual ships' orientation, and the number of sails set would determine the speed of the ships. Speeds were slow at best, unlike naval battles in Assassin's Creed III in which ships speed along as if they had diesel engines. So random strength and direction of the wind, the motion of the waves, all should definitely be included as well as other weather effects on accuracy of cannon shot.

Chance or randomness should also govern ship encounters at sea with distance, weather effects, and day/night cycles having their effects. In fact there are multiple outcomes possible from the time a sail is sighted and the decision made to investigate or avoid, when a ship is close enough to identify the type of vessel, run up colors and/or signal flags, or close in for a closer look. Then you have to decide whether to attack, run, or offer a parley. If the ship decides to run from you, and you want to give chase, can you use the bow chasers to attempt to damage their rigging or masts? Whether this is successful is a matter of luck.

Are there plans to include non-player controlled ships such as merchantmen to serve as prey for pirates and privateers and require naval ships to provide escort sometimes? If so, then these would have to be random encounters as well.

[Barberouge]

A little luck makes for a spiced up gameplay, but a lot of luck makes for randomized combat outcomes. Luck is IMO a good idea as long as it doesn't overwhelm skill. For that to happen, luck has to be somehow controlled: let the players know the chances, know the effects and make the chances vary depending on the combination of environment conditions, ships characteristics, crew experience... So that the luck factor is a tradeoff rather than a divine punishment.

 

For example, a frigate sailing with full sails in a wind force of 6 has 1% chances to break 15% of its rigging every minute. Sailing parallel to the swell increases the chances by 1%, but reducing the sail area decreases the chances by 0.5% and outfitting the ship with reinforced rigging decreases the damage by 10%. That way, a captain entering a rough weather zone is aware of the risks he takes for the benefits he gets.

 

As another example, damaging a rudder would depend on the shot type, the distance, the gunners experience, the swell and the shot angle. It could decrease the turning acceleration or the maximum rotation. It could be repaired up to a point, more or less quickly by a skilled carpenter. That way, showing a stern to the enemy would be risky but wouldn't unluckily make the ship totally unmaneuverable until the end of the fight.

[McCullogh]

I like your thinking barberouge, a skilled captain can do things to make certain events more likely, and an unskilled or recless captain can certainly put his ship into harms way.  Your mention of a skilled carpenter brings to mind another thought...the longer a crew is together, the more skilled they become.  I'll start a new thread for that.

[Verhoeven]

I think things like the randomness of wind chance would a nice factor. Though it should happen conservatively. Weather direction usually does not change 3 times in half an hour. It would be nice to see preludes of weather change. Or a message. If it is just a matter of seconds to see the wind change 180 degrees it would be rather silly. Instead of wind direction I would rather see changes in wind strength. That could change pretty rapidly, and greatly influence the outcome of any battle.

[Digby]

I would prefer to see player skill be a far bigger factor than luck. Of course any computer game runs millions of calculations all the time so the result of any activity has an elelment of uncertainty about it but a player should have an idea of the possible outcomes and I would not like to see "good luck" become something so cheesy as a player "skill" so that he gains a basic advantage in certain things. We're heading off into PotBs territory again there.

[Adair]

I believe the only 'luck' factor should come from the random number generator server side. When my Indiaman is getting chased by a crack frigate, I'm going to order my chasers to aim for his sails and rigging in the hopes of knocking away something important. At that point, luck will determine whether we get away or not. And he'll be doing the same for me, no doubt!

 

I'm with Verhoeven and Digby on this. The best captains relied on luck, but also stacked the deck in their favor as battles evolved.

[adambomb]

Luck or being random, either one,, different things happing without knowing for sure they were, YES,, The gust, strength, steadiness, of the wind is a big factory, And of course the crew. All these factors need to be taken into consideration.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I think luck should be a factor, luck is very realistic.   One shot can take out the foremast or a rudder and leave a ship unable to maneuver.  

[Thomas Blackwell]

I think we're forgetting that a lucky shot still required a skilled gun crew. A skilled gun crew that did not have a random luck generator. I suggest that if you want luck in this game, use your own skill, and prey you get lucky.

[Ned Loe]

Luck - bonus (+5% to all stats) for example.

 

Luck can simply be added to each character (item piece) it will be triggered randomly during battle.

 

 

 

ex. 

 

Captain: Long Horn lvl 30.

 

Gunnery: 3/10

Speech:  5/10

Sailing:   6/10

Luck:      +5% (+5% to all stats once triggered)

 

Luck can be obtained from : Avatar item(necklace, ring etc)  or ship item (figurehead, a statue etc)

 

Good idea! I can see it in the game with no problems.

[Johny Reb]

Now we are talking about magical items again Wind. Why would a necklass bring luck? I'd rather like to see "luck" as unrealized skill or a good guess at solving complicated firing solutions. It should be linked to achievments and or a skill tree of some sort. This would cover the "unrealized skill" aspect of luck. Then again, I'm in favor of a very long and complicated achievment/skill tree like what you would find in Eve but different. I also wouldnt mind a complicated skill tree set to mimic how you tier level in WarThunder where you choose a skill to level and all fights build experience that eventually unlock that skill. I want it to be long and detailed so that someone that has played for three or four years still hasnt attained all the skills. This would make every captain different and randomizes contests as well as keeps the game interesting.

[BrutishVulgarian]

 

I think we're forgetting that a lucky shot still required a skilled gun crew. A skilled gun crew that did not have a random luck generator. I suggest that if you want luck in this game, use your own skill, and prey you get lucky.

You are correct, sir.  If the game engine tracks the ball to the rudder or the wheel, then it doesn't need some luck generator.  I hope the game is physics based, then luck can be provided by the real world. 

[Ned Loe]

Now we are talking about magical items again Wind. Why would a necklass bring luck? I'd rather like to see "luck" as unrealized skill or a good guess at solving complicated firing solutions. It should be linked to achievments and or a skill tree of some sort. This would cover the "unrealized skill" aspect of luck. Then again, I'm in favor of a very long and complicated achievment/skill tree like what you would find in Eve but different. I also wouldnt mind a complicated skill tree set to mimic how you tier level in WarThunder where you choose a skill to level and all fights build experience that eventually unlock that skill. I want it to be long and detailed so that someone that has played for three or four years still hasnt attained all the skills. This would make every captain different and randomizes contests as well as keeps the game interesting.

because you believe it helps, like a cross people wear. It will effect a person and a person will react more (aggressive or faster in this game situation), knowing a mythical force is protecting him... )) ex. I went to this weird island and a shaman offered me a mission that would unlock an option to purchase items from him (like in GW2, clear area from enemy and receive weapons from a soldier) he then sold me an item that supposed to protect me and my ship, crew during battle. (+5% crew defense +5% reload)..why not? why not make it more interesting? do not stick to 100% reality... we will have all types of players...

[Ned Loe]

 

 

You are correct, sir.  If the game engine tracks the ball to the rudder or the wheel, then it doesn't need some luck generator.  I hope the game is physics based, then luck can be provided by the real world. 

 

luck should only effect human actions, not ship defense or armor... 

 

ex.

sailors believe idol is protecting them and work harder!

they are brave in battles!

they are more accurate when shooting because they are fearless! etc...

[Thomas Blackwell]

luck should only effect human actions, not ship defense or armor... 

 

ex.

sailors believe idol is protecting them and work harder!

they are brave in battles!

they are more accurate when shooting because they are fearless! etc...

 

Although this is true in real life, to implement it into the game I personally think it would hurt realism and gameplay rather than add to it. Whereas on a wan-o-war you would have 100+ men aboard, in game there is only one, the captain. So without tampering with shot tracking, luck should remain an outside influence.

[Thomas Blackwell]

Luck - bonus (+5% to all stats) for example.

 

Luck can simply be added to each character (item piece) it will be triggered randomly during battle.

 

 

 

ex. 

 

Captain: Long Horn lvl 30.

 

Gunnery: 3/10

Speech:  5/10

Sailing:   6/10

Luck:      +5% (+5% to all stats once triggered)

 

Luck can be obtained from : Avatar item(necklace, ring etc)  or ship item (figurehead, a statue etc)

 

Good idea! I can see it in the game with no problems.

 

I believe the developers have also stated that they will not be introducing a skill tree. 

 

(Sorry I made this a separate post, I kind of answered in a rush!)

[Johny Reb]

I believe the developers have also stated that they will not be introducing a skill tree. 

 

(Sorry I made this a separate post, I kind of answered in a rush!)

Have they. I dont believe they have mentioned a "skill tree" exactly but they have talked about achievments and unlocks I believe. They definately have talked about not wanting to have "levels" but if I remember correctly they have talked about crew leveling but definately no skill tree that provides magical clicky skills.

 

Admin, can you clarify your vision for me?

[Johny Reb]

because you believe it helps, like a cross people wear. It will effect a person and a person will react more (aggressive or faster in this game situation), knowing a mythical force is protecting him... )) ex. I went to this weird island and a shaman offered me a mission that would unlock an option to purchase items from him (like in GW2, clear area from enemy and receive weapons from a soldier) he then sold me an item that supposed to protect me and my ship, crew during battle. (+5% crew defense +5% reload)..why not? why not make it more interesting? do not stick to 100% reality... we will have all types of players...

I had a feeling you would respond with this arguement. I just wanted to say something to make sure you werent heading in the direction of magical skills in general. Id rather have the trinket effect something more generic though like morale(depending on how morale is implemented in game) and Id prefer that the trinket looses its effect if you keep loosing fights since the crew would begin to doubt its "powers". Any new trinket found could restore that morale so you are always hoping that went you enter the tavern you will find a shady character sitting in the back offering to sell you a good luck charm for a modest price.(like in the old game Sid Meyers Pirates.)

[Thomas Blackwell]

Have they. I dont believe they have mentioned a "skill tree" exactly but they have talked about achievments and unlocks I believe. They definately have talked about not wanting to have "levels" but if I remember correctly they have talked about crew leveling but definately no skill tree that provides magical clicky skills.

 

Admin, can you clarify your vision for me?

 

Sorry Johny I was totally wrong. I remember admin answered a question of mine about skill trees and after finding it again, I must correct myself. They said they would be introducing passive skill trees, with some xp/time based skills. So I apologize again for getting my facts wrong.

[Thomas Blackwell]

I had a feeling you would respond with this arguement. I just wanted to say something to make sure you werent heading in the direction of magical skills in general. Id rather have the trinket effect something more generic though like morale(depending on how morale is implemented in game) and Id prefer that the trinket looses its effect if you keep loosing fights since the crew would begin to doubt its "powers". Any new trinket found could restore that morale so you are always hoping that went you enter the tavern you will find a shady character sitting in the back offering to sell you a good luck charm for a modest price.(like in the old game Sid Meyers Pirates.)

 

This sounds like it could actually be a pretty cool mechanic. For example if you win a fight, the bonus your trinket gives is raised, say from a base of 5% > 5.2% up to a limit of 8% if you keep winning fights. However if you have a 5% bonus and you lose a fight, that bonus loses it's effectiveness, say from 5% to 4.5% to a limit of 0% bonus. This mechanic can be applied to either luck (which I'm personally not fond of) or your crew morale, which in turn dictates things like reload speed, crew durability, sail handling and effectiveness in boarding combat. The trinket your captain has can be given to you at the beginning of the game during character creation and differs depending on your nation, or even your occupation.

 

Furthermore, I would like to add to this after reading that latest PVP post...

 

 If dev's decided to go down this route, the amount of trinket bonus earned by captains could be greater in PVP battles vs PVE battles, and not so much dependant on the ship type you win/lose against.

 

For example...

 

If I'm in a schooner, and I win against a PVE schooner, my trinket's bonus should go from (ex) 5% > 5.2%

If I'm in a schooner, and I lose to a PVE schooner, My trinket's bonus should go from (ex) 5% > 4.5%

If I'm in a schooner, and I win against a PVP schooner, my trinket's bonus should go from 5% > 5.5%

If I'm in a schooner, and I lose to a PVP schooner, my trinket's bonus should go from 5% > 4.5%

 

Again it shouldn't be affected by ship 'size' or type because that will work to discourage small ships in PVP when most single action was fought in 6th rate and below. That and small ships are really fun.

 

This may not be much of an incentive, but it means you can generate a better bonus (a climb of .2 (PVE) vs .5 (PVP)) while assured that if you lose, it's going to be no worse then if you lost to a PVE vessel.

[admin]

On the skills

we definitely said and stand by this - there will be no "magic" skills in the game

 

but there will be some passive skills and perks you will be able to train and allocate (especially for your officers and crew)

on active skills we are undecided - the UI for sailing ship is complex enough - adding more skills will make it worse

[Johny Reb]

Passive skills is what I advocate for. I just wish it could be multifaceted, take time to learn, and have many paths of expertise. The end game is what ultimately bores me because it usually consists of one grind after another. And it stays that way unless new content arrives. So, in a naval game like this, what can you work towards when you reach end game? 1. Getting the biggest and best ship, 2. Becoming OP at PvP, 3. Becoming the richest, 4. Building a guild that is influential, powerful, respected and enjoyable. 

Once you get the big ship that part of end game is over... Becomin OP at pvp is one of the only reasons potbs survives... Most wont want to play the "im the richest game"... The society that I've helped build is probably the only reason that I've stayed with potbs.

So there are only really two things you can work towards in the end game but if you dont really like pvp then there is only one thing and if you arnt social or a leader of a guild then potentially you have nothing.

So having a plethora of passive skills or a combination of skills and unlocks that take real time and effort will give those players who always want to feel as if they are straining towards some goal a reason to stay at endgame and make grinding more valuable than money.