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Unequal battles

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13 minutes ago, SKurj said:

Sums it up pretty well...

And I forgot to underline I lost a Constitution Teak/WO+VerySturdy, not a my far cheaper raider Renomee... and main reason was... I ended hull repairs... because, not being able to spend so much on perms, to keep my ships as fast as possible I count every single repair I think necessary... and I did not espected to fight a so long battle.

Edited by Licinio Chiavari
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12 hours ago, admin said:

What is interfering with making winning such battles possible?

realism?

What would you add to combat model to give more options to win by skill?

make skill more relevant, i.e. remove upgrades and combos.

What could should we add to help captains to not be afraid attacking an overwhelming force?

this already happens. it works if the overwhelming force has little o no skill, aka newbies. which is as it should be, imo. plus the lonely captain can even sail a fully upgraded ship the newbies can't even dream of, that's advantage enough. you have watched too many movies, i think :D sanjuro doesn't win because he's a godly fighter, but because he cuts down clueless scum. he wouldn't stand a chance against superior numbers of similarly trained fighters. then again if he was a godly fighter, he would be one in thousands. if you then were to give him a hard grinded laser pistol, that's just not balanced nor fun.

How would you tune existing mechanics to increase the chance to win by skill?

i think combat in na already involves quite a bit of skill compared to many other games. it stands out precisely for that. manual sailing, wind, demasting, stern raking, tactics ... there's a lot to master. of course it could always be better! things that come to mind:

  • as said, nerf/reduce/remove upgrades
  • nerf/reduce/remove repairs (you can't pwn a scum gang if they're all constantly repairing)
  • boarding minigame leaves a lot to desire for in regard of skill
  • individual deck management
  • make aiming harder (more heel, more water movement)
  • make wind more impredictable and challenging
  • limited ammo (so you have to make it count)
  • anchor turns? :D
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@admin instead of doing what you think is right you let people drive you. Yes solo players are NA future, they are new guys who will fight solo at first and yes they should be able to stand against gank group. 

Problems that make NA pvp difficult and unpopular. 

-Long travel times.

-Cost and time to replace / refit ships / find mods etc.

-No instant reinforcement feature. (Call for help and let players just click join and help without need of search and sail)

Antiganking solution is to allow player to call for help and let helpers instantly join the fight. 

3vs1 - Press Call For help (Help 0/2) Your armor/Damage/Resistance is now x3 

 

Edited by H2O

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In all honesty, battles are not the issue. The current setup and mechanics for battles work very well. If you really want to help out the "little guy" change the victory marks like you discussed with the community earlier and maybe find a way to spread out the servers population a bit better rather than just having one or two huge factions and a bunch of small factions. The bigger issue if you even want to consider battles an issue to begin with is RvR and not PvP. Also finding ways to get younger and newer players into all aspects of the game rather than forcing them to work their butts off for days in mindless grinding. 

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Current mechanics are acceptable except the constant retags that can see you trapped by enemies for hours till surrender. 

Make a new way to get equal battles if you want them, PBs get you equal fights but they require time investment to get them started and a day for them to start. 

Returning to the idea of port raids might be the answer where you can attack a port with a maximum of 10 guys and the defenders can only respond with an equal BR force. 

Or have spontaneous chest drops on the map where you need get there and join a battle with a maximum Br limit. If no one comes then free chest, but if a gang comes the Br is fair cause the battle for the chest is limited to a low Br level like 800-1500 depending on location. 

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5 hours ago, Christendom said:

If the price for admission into PVP and RVR is cheap, everyone will do it

Meh, players ran in sea trials / NA Legends where its completely free, because human nature doesnt want to lose and prefers running for its life

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7 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

PvP Marks are gained by assist and kills. 

The usual scenario that make people avoid PVP is: PVP 1 vs 1 or 3 vs 1 (and the weak player is tipically in the 1 player side).

Can you tell me please which kind of assit or kill the weak player can get there?

Try not to be so greedy folks: if you get 9 PVP mark, the looser can get 1 (provided, as I said, that the winner gets more gold for the PVP kills than now)

 

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47 minutes ago, victor said:

The usual scenario that make people avoid PVP is: PVP 1 vs 1 or 3 vs 1 (and the weak player is tipically in the 1 player side).

Can you tell me please which kind of assit or kill the weak player can get there?

Try not to be so greedy folks: if you get 9 PVP mark, the looser can get 1 (provided, as I said, that the winner gets more gold for the PVP kills than now)

 

You really want folks to farm the crap out of them if they get them in both sides.  No we shouldn’t rewards for just showing up.  So what about the guy that gets jump 3 vs 1 and winks the three should he get more rewards than?  Maybe if we teach our guys to not go out when gank squads are camping ports or gasp actually go out and defend your waters as a team?

 

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If I wanted to only 1v1 or 2v2 etc then I would play a lobby style game and they don't appeal to me.

I can see merit on a system where a lone player cannot tag a huge massive group but the fight in the video isn't what a real life fight looks like 5 v 1 , they don't sit by and wait to see if their friend gets splatted , they wade in to make sure their numbers count and that their friend doesn't get killed.

 

and as Tex has mentioned above, you do not reward people for showing up. It's a recipe for disaster in so many ways, not least that you will never be able to reverse it without  uproar.

 

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What if you make the PvP marks damage+BR based - that way the losing side could end up getting more PvP marks than the winning side under the right circumstances. If it is a 1v10, then it's likely that the 1 player will stay in the fight if he knows he will get enough marks to refit his ship as soon as he gets back to port by simply damaging the enemy, but the enemy is less willing to enter the fight if they know that they get near no PvP marks for having a BR 10x higher.

EDIT: The forum did not refresh properly - I see now that this has already been discussed... I'll leave the comment here anyways though

Edited by Percival Merewether
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IMHO the pvp mark system is fine, what really needs to change for more pvp is to get players out of reinforcement zones. Don't force them but give them some candy when they leave it.

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57 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

and as Tex has mentioned above, you do not reward people for showing up. It's a recipe for disaster in so many ways, not least that you will never be able to reverse it without  uproar.

 

Where did I say "reward to just show up"?

I wrote in my first post on this topic that you should get the mark only if you do a certain amount of damage in the battle you loose.

It's so simple:  "no rewards for loosing in PVP is the main reason why people avoid PVP if they are not sure they win".

The only possible solution is as simple as the problem: give some (lower but interesting) rewards also to the loosing side and he will be more likely to do PVP.

Any other solution will just ignore the actual reason of the problem, so in my opinion it will not work.

Edited by victor
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12 hours ago, TheLoneWolf said:

A suggestion that may help with increasing pvp is making some books pvp only but with a system like with rank xp.

I believe in this too.

Beginning players are motivated by normal gold and xp earnings, intermediate and veteran players can be motivated by rare books and upgrades.

The very best and most active pvp players seem to be able to get just about anything they want by paying in pvp marks. I think there is a rather large portion of players that have enough gold for comfort but struggle to compete or progress in the pvp marks "market". PVP marks is a clear incentive to go PVP but also exacerbates ganking. "Just grind a handful of epics or pay in PVP marks to get rare books". The exclusivety of it and high threshold is by deliberate design but on the topic of PVP motivation I don't think it works well for most players. 

Say we had pvp only rank xp system:

You could "God of PVP" your way up quickly by (always) winning or progress more slowly by losing to skill or superior numbers.

and/or

You could put BR multipliers in place. People would learn they progress slowly by going in 5v1, but still win, or progress much faster by accepting an equal fight or fighting hard in a losing match. I've seen this work in one rather open game more alike NA than WoT/WT. There will always by running and ganking, but with such a system many players would have enough motivation to accept a fight against odds.

 @admin, you ask "how to motivate PVP?" ^This system is proven, over time, to work. It alleviates the running and ganking problems but it doesn't pretend to fix it completely. It is a carrot and not a stick.

(Also, French rigs (and kirimati) are a little too exclusive/expensive for "anyone" to go hard with your tempting masts and reload suicide challenge. Three to four losses and I'd have to place an alt or fall back on the unreliable winged out ballast.)

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42 minutes ago, victor said:

Where did I say "reward to just show up"?

I wrote in my first post on this topic that you should get the mark only if you do a certain amount of damage in the battle you loose.

It's so simple:  "no rewards for loosing in PVP is the main reason why people avoid PVP if they are not sure they win".

The only possible solution is as simple as the problem: give some (lower but interesting) rewards also to the loosing side and he will be more likely to do PVP.

Any other solution will just ignore the actual reason of the problem, so in my opinion it will not work.

I am not so sure it's that simple , having seen people run from battle in fleet practice

 

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6 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

I am not so sure it's that simple , having seen people run from battle in fleet practice

 

It seems that you still do not get my point mate :P .... does fleet practice give some rewards?

That's exactly my point: it's not enough reducing the loss (or make ships easier to replace) to induce people into PVP battles that they are likely to loose, you should give them a (small) prize also if they loose (provided they actually fought and did not just show up). But that prize cannot be just gold, since gold is easy to obtain also with other low risk activities.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that PVP players sell their marks and therefore they would like to keep high the value, so the solution could be a trade-off like: a few PVP marks also for the PVP looser (if he makes actual damage) but way more gold (plus the usual marks) for the PVP winner

Edited by victor
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1st thing - remove F11 coordinates and block any API export of them.

Sorry, this has to be done even before any OW revenge mechanics are touched.

Further...

What is PvP ? Not everything has to be a "master & commander" movie, but everything must be a epic scene even if it is a great escape.

PvP is not only when I want. It is also when I do not want. Stop and think about this.

No amount of rewards will make me PvP if I don't want to PvP. Only getting caught with no escape will make me PvP, or surrender under some circumstances, like having no time to spend.

Last NA situation I had I simply surrendered after one broadside and just put myself into boarding. Enemy captured a fairly good Constitution, unmodded but fine.

What did he gain ? Marks. The ship was sunk.

I bet the Admiralty would be more than welcome to purchase such a fine frigate and put it for use - maybe recycle the captured player ships into NPC store/Admiralty store.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, victor said:

It seems that you still do not get my point mate :P .... does fleet practice give some rewards?

That's exactly my point: it's not enough reducing the loss (or make ships easier to replace) to induce people into PVP they are likely to loose, you should give them a (small) prize also loosing (provided they actually fought and did not just show up)

People chose to enter fleet  practice , they cannot always chose where they fight in the OW

People cannot lose anything in fleet practice and they are happy to enter knowing they cannot gain anything or lose either

 

yet still they run... there is a reason they run, not sure what it is but it isn't all to do with reward or even risk.

welfare payments for shooting sails won't imho address the issue

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16 hours ago, admin said:

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

Reward XP/Gold/PVP marks for assist without sinking (as we have told you many times before). Assist reward for 20% hull damage, for destroyed masts and for a good rake.

Functioning masts are key to being able to fight to the end. So make destroying masts more difficult will allow for well fighting to the end.

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19 hours ago, admin said:

How would you tune existing mechanics to increase the chance to win by skill?

Remove chain shot or at least limit it like charged / double shot.... chain is what makes fighting against the odds really cancer. Any noob can spam chain at your sails and then they have a easy time to board or just gangbang you...

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

No amount of rewards will make me PvP if I don't want to PvP. Only getting caught with no escape will make me PvP, or surrender under some circumstances, like having no time to spend.

 

 

 

You therefore claim to know me better than I, since I would gladly enjoy PVP against all odds if I had some PVP mark in case I loose but gave a good fight.

It's amazing how PVPers pretend to know also other players mind.

At the end of the story I think that if @admin want to find out what could induce a carebear into PVP should listen more to what carebears say, rather than to what PVPers assume about what carebears may want or not want.

 

Edited by victor
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15 hours ago, admin said:

i agree - but lets ignore them for a little while


There is a lot of average players - we want them to start fighting more and stop running - they all have no gear!!!

 

Average players have no chance versus experienced players. CptReverse and others demonstrate this day in day out.

They will always run, because they have no chance of sinking the experienced players. The noobs get sunk anyways, whether they fight or run. So the noobs run to steal the time of the experienced players to allow other noobs to live during that 1.5 hours of boring chasing fight. 

New and average players need incentives to fight, while knowing they cannot win. This can only be achieved if you reward for damage done without sinking others. If you do not do that, the problem will never be solved.

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@victor

That's what I said several posts before, if you read it all through. ( it helps to grasp the context )

Many different players fight for different reasons.

Hence you must assume always that you are a part of it all with your own unique and individual opinion that can be the same as many others.

As a sugarcoating - you can have all my pvp marks for all I care is to emulate age of sail experience.

S!

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3 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

No amount of rewards will make me PvP if I don't want to PvP.

Nobody can, will or want to change that.

We want to enable and motivate as many as possible for PVP so that they are available to you when you want PVP.

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One thing you could do is remove boarding until you have a working system, that alone would put emphasis on sailing/gunnery skills instead of dumb chain boarding tactics.

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2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Nobody can, will or want to change that.

We want to enable and motivate as many as possible for PVP so that they are available to you when you want PVP.

No loss environment.

Where everything is for bragging rights only.

- other than that -

No idea... loss of reputation if I show myself as a Navy Officer coward and run away ? demoted ?

 

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