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Unequal battles

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My biggest issue with the current system is the endless revenge fleet.

An enemy fleet can easily wait on an exact battle position using f11 coordinates, and then spread out creating an inescapable web. So you win your battle, or the enemy escapes, and then you run into the group of 8-12 enemies waiting for you. 

This process often happens again and again, until I am forced to give up due to the time, I run out of repairs and get killed, or after 4 hours they get bored and I escape for good.

This problem was fixed before when invisibility/immmunity was added, but then the timers were nerfed to insignificant levels. By the time most of us load back into the open world, there are only 10-15 seconds of invisibility left, which isn't enough to get outside most revenge fleet rings. 

 

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Just two suggestions (w/o reading the whole thread):

(1) How about late reinforcements (button activated after 30-45 mins or so in battle), but only for the case of large BR difference (say more than 50% difference)? This will give reason for lone players or outnumbered group of players to keep on fighting. Needless to say, reinforcements should be proportional, no vic fleets or such. The reinforcements should not appear automatically: it should remain player's choice to call them or not. 

(2) A bit more random battle exit coordinates, to make the job of revenge fleets more difficult, would be nice. 

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

This topic is  bollocks in my opinion. You never tuned the mechanics for anti ganking. The whole multiple reps in battles favors the side with more numbers bigtime. The videos you see of 1v3s etc are just vs retards. The skill level of top players has never been as low imo.

To Everyone!

Avoid off topic
Stay on topic and answer the questions. 
If you wish to ask a new question or make a statement unrelated to questions asked do it in a separate topic
If you think combat is ok just say so.

To you comment you are right - 5 Hachis will sink 1 Hachi in any circumstance. 25 Rediis will sink 5 Rediis with any ship setup or mods.
 

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An observation from a newbie.  I've just started PvP and am maneuvering my puny cutter around far more powerful ships.  What I see here might also apply to what you are describing.

Seems like I ought to be able to see the national flag on a ship via the spyglass without having to click on it.  Which automatically alerts who I am looking at.  Something that would never actually happen.

In a combat situation this would speed up situational awareness.  If I want to skeedadle on one of my better points of sail toward a ship not involved in the battle, I need to be able to make that decision very quickly.

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2 minutes ago, Corvus said:

Seems like I ought to be able to see the national flag on a ship via the spyglass without having to click on it.  Which automatically alerts who I am looking at.  Something that would never actually happen.

Just FYI, clicking on someone in the OW does not let them know you are looking at them. 

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Thank you for clarifying that - useful to know.  I just seem to get some sort of response from everyone I click on.

What do you think about the effect on speed of reaction in combat?

Edited by Corvus
correction

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10 minutes ago, Corvus said:

That's useful to know.  I just seem to get some sort of response from everyone I click on.

What do you think about the effect on speed of reaction in combat?

Are you clicking on private chat in the player identification tag

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2 hours ago, SS Minnow said:

I think once we get around 50 or so PVP marks we can try to invest them in Navy Hull, Navy Structure, etc. and hope that this leads to making more PVP marks...so it snowballs into having enough to challenge an elite with lesser ships on our side.  I have only 68 PVP marks total since the start and plan to try spending some now to see what my return on them is.

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

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10 minutes ago, admin said:
  1. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
 

- Give (of course less) PVP marks also to the looser in proportion to the damage done to the winner(s).

- Make PVP refits and modules cheap (accessible with a few PVP marks)

- Allow the buying of paints and nice cosmetic things only with PVP marks.

I will still be steamrolled by liquicity each time I meet him, but hey ... I can have some ot those shinies even if I loose.

Edited by victor
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1 minute ago, admin said:

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

First and foremost, you make ships and refits much cheaper to obtain.  Here is an idea refit costs:

Carta $3,000,000

Copper plating 2-3 million

Navy hull or Navy structure - 10 pvp each

Add price of ship - 1-9 million

So you are looking at 5-15 million per ship.  Grinding a good size fleet will net you $400k and takes 30 min or more.  Doing math for the lower ships (4th rate with half decent mods) you need to do 10-12 grinding missions solo or invest 5 hours or so.  End result, the replacement effort is immense.  This has to change.

Secondly, you have to convince players they can win the ganking which imo is very difficult or impossible if 3 or more v1

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2 hours ago, admin said:

One year ago we gave ourselves a task to tune a combat model in the way where GEAR will have an overwhelming effect on the combat, allowing small group or a solo player to win almost any battle or destroy a great number of enemies before sinking himself. 

I made a slight edit but think it's a bit more accurate. The new 4 and 5 slot ships will place even more emphasis on "Gear" as well. Of course gear alone is not the sole determining factor on who wins a fight but it does make a very big impact. I don't see that as being skill based personally. Again, it is really hard to balance combat when you have so many powerful mods/books/ships.....are you balancing mast strength around guys running super mast mods or the guy with none? Are you judging damage output by the guy running poods? Are cannons really too accurate or is that simply due to mods? Whenever you have really good gear that is not available to all then you are undoubtedly placing an emphasis on gear over skill. When you get two equally geared up opponents then skill becomes the determining factor. 

 

However, list of things I think would help improve our current combat mechanics:

1. Nerf chain shot. Either the range, accuracy, damage,  or maybe all three need to be looked at. It's so easy to sit back and just pummel someone who is outnumbered with chain. It's a very low skill level requirement to hit sails....and very low risk. I remember back when chain didn't do nearly the damage that it does now and I thought it was in a decent place when it came to effectiveness. Where the crying came from to buff chain was guys trying to chase down running traders....I get it but you can see where balancing chain effectiveness for one scenario where someone is simply trying to catch a runner versus balancing it for actual fighting is different. 

2. Would prefer to revert back to something closer to the old repair system. 1 hull and 1 sail.....however, each repair heals for a larger amount. If someone makes a bad error early in the fight they have to decide if they use that repair right away or hold on to it till later? The current system reminds me more of DPS versus HOT (Heal Over Time) race than it does anything else. When you had only 1 repair kit of each type the decision of when to use it was a major factor in battle. Side bonus is it eliminates the need to run back to port after every big battle or two to stock back up on repairs. Total waste of time needing to do this and only compounds the revenge gank problem. You guys even though this was a bad idea during your early development years ago. 

3. Make mods and books available to everyone through crafting or marks. These things cost more than the ships. In fact the ship is easily replaced....who cares about the ship? All I care about are the mods....well books as well but you can't lose those. In my world the ability to customize your ship is available to everyone but the ship itself is the more expensive valuable commodity. I'd get rid of the stupid 1st rate farm ships and have them used for what they should be used for...port battles.... not John Deere gear farming tractors.  

 

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Samurai has OP gear.  Balance gear so that it really does not affect to battle results.  See plenty of effort to get gear in balance.

"Tricks" that some people know and others don't.  These are basically something that waits there to be found by the rest and after that Samurai has plenty of difficulties once again.

Keep it balanced and inform all in patch notes.  Also if you have a clever way to win and you implement that -> Inform that in patch notes.

The game does not need Samurai, actually ruining all realism to me.

Can you please let us have fair fights?  #KillTheSamurai

...

edit.  If there is a Samurai, let him have equal gear and no tricks that only he knows.  Let it be fair.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ
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12 minutes ago, admin said:

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

Repair limits.  Unlimited repairs are what is prolonging these battles and making it so 3 people can kill 12. 

Give rewards for players on both sides.  Money, XP, sail shooting XP.  Give 1 PVP mark to all ships engaged on the winning side IF they did crew damage, hull damage or sail damage. 

Reduce the impact that certain mods and ship books have over the average player with none of those items.  

Make navy hull or some of the other 1 time use addons available with combat marks also.  This will help increase the starting point into PVP for inexperienced players.

------

Just a side note, it feels like people are almost punished in this game for going out to pvp and losing ships.  A player who goes out and PVPs, loses his ship should feel like he gained something out of the fight, other than just wasting his time.  Money, XP.....marks.  Something.  Player X goes out and builds an endymion, puts on whatever mods he can afford.  Sails out of KPR and 5mins later he is attacked by 5 players and loses his ship.  He received nothing for the fight.  What encourages him to go back out and do it again?
 

Edited by Christendom
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18 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Are you clicking on private chat in the player identification tag

No.  Except possible by accident in an inexperienced attempt to quickly exit the window so I can look at the next ship.

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1 hour ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Please do not realive the hated "Battle Result Screen with Easy Escape Button", while keeping the tag circle at its current size.

Shrink the Tag Circle to force a fight, then you can give a Battle Result Screen, because the player who wanna escape needed to fight his way out of the battle instead of defence tag und runaway.

 

we already reduced it by 20% over last 1.5 months ;)

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If you lose you gain no pvp marks. That’s bullshit. 

And what Christendom said is spot on. 

Too many players just go with these stupid OP modded meta ships. It has nothing to do with skill, and everything to do with our Endymions going 14 kts. Cant catch a hello kittying 3rd rate. And then magically if we do catch the 3rd rate and our 3rd rate catches up he can’t be penned and takes down our mast with 2 ball shots. And we shoot his mast, get tens of hits, and they stay up. That is my biggest gripe to be honest. One time I got over 100 mast hits on a Trinc, his masts never fell down. 

Rework the woods “armor thickness.” It feels too much like wood acts like ceramic armor instead of wood. Wood compresses and shatters. If it gets hit, it becomes less thick. If wood in real life did what it does in this game, nobody would be chopping down forests because of the effort it would take. 

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3 hours ago, admin said:

 

 

One more thing you have mistaken Mr. Admin.  Gank does not often look like this at all.  Instead it is more like 10x Samurai vs 1 newbie.

Give that newbie a change and remove this shitty idea of Samurais.

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11 minutes ago, admin said:

How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)

Maybe if the BR difference is above a certain limit then the losing side gets rewards. Say a 1v7, where the 1 sinks, but he still gets a reward for sinking 2 out of 7 enemies. That way there is an incentive to at least give it an attempt. Problem would be you couldnt base it off of BR alone but just a thought. 

 

13 minutes ago, admin said:

How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 

Same idea. I would be up for a 10 versus 1 against me if I would still get some form of reward at the end.

 

15 minutes ago, admin said:

nd if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end.

I don't really think many tools are needed other than skill. Yes poods hurt a hell of a lot, but don't just sit and let them ruin you. Camp their bow or stern, poods wont do much then. As for upgrades, they just need to be more accessible, I won't be willing to lose a ship that cost me 600k with upgrades on it that cost 3 or 4 times that price.

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16 minutes ago, admin said:

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

Rewards.

Right now you get nothing worth.

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16 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

I made a slight edit but think it's a bit more accurate. Th


gear

 

 

Good ship was important in the age of sail of course. And gear was important too
But majority of great bonuses are in the skillbooks, not in the permanent upgrades. You can't lose book of five rings and you can easily get all the books if you participate in the epic events. 
Like in EVE some good upgrades are rare and expensive and the bonus they give is minor %wise. 
Upgrades give you an edge but not an I win button

we agree on edinorogs but we want our new year presents to be F****ING amazing!
(they will probably dissapear in 2-3 months)

 

18 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

First and foremost, you make ships and refits much cheaper to obtain.  Here is an idea refit costs:

Carta $3,000,000

Copper plating 2-3 million

Navy hull or Navy structure - 10 pvp each

 

 

Cartagena and Navy hull have reverse correlation to small OW battle win rate
And you dont need copper plating if you dont plan to run away

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11 minutes ago, OneEyedSnake said:

If you lose you gain no pvp marks. That’s bullshit. 

 

Oh please no ridiculous suggestions

One of the oldest navy phrases is
No Prey No Pay!
Live with it please :)

 

ps we give you xp and gold

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@admin Well when I find myself in a 1 vs. (a lot) situation, I know if I try to engage, here is what will happen:

I will get chained to 40-50% sails, or demasted fairly quickly. Even if I manage to heavily damage an enemy ship, they can sail away from me and rotate out with a healthy ship. Due to my low sails, I have no way to pursue. At this point the enemy can rake/board or smash me till I sink.

I think part of the problem is multiple repairs. They favor the side with more people, because the experienced player can't capitalize on an enemy's mistakes. I can demast or heavily damage someone, but unless they play really badly, I probably can't finish them off.

 

Edited by EliteDelta
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8 minutes ago, admin said:

that's a good point. PvP rewards should probably be more accessible and you should be able to refit your ship and go back to action. 

I think the main question I did not emphasize is this

  1. How do you encourage attacking even if you are outnumbered (as tools allow you to win if you are skilled)
  2. How do you encourage not running, because in most of the cases if you dont run you will quickly realize that enemy average skill level is average too and often times they make a lot of mistakes and you can rake in kills and have fun by fighting and and taking somebody with you.

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)
 

1. Module are the biggest downside for me. It's most of the time no issue to replace the ship (especially as we didn't had the Rng thingy) but mods are always the real pain for me. They are much much harder to get you have to spend a lot of effort and time to get them when you are not a well known player with 6hands full of friends.

Why not sail without them? Yeah because you never know what you will encounter so better be prepared. Furthermore the benefit of such mods is so high especially when stacked that there is a real difference.

Some time ago I gave a ship to a friend so he could try it out. I said to him "bring back my mods they were expensive" I really didn't care a second about the ship itself.

When I ran I run because of the mods 80% and 20% while I hate to lose.

 

2. Any tool that keeps me maneuverable,  over 3.5kn, afloat and reloading my guns.

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18 minutes ago, admin said:

So lets rephrase again
How do you encourage not running or accepting the combat even if you will lose it. 
And if you don't run, what tools will allow you to fight well to the end. (subject of this topic)

Here is an idea:  PVP marks are currently awarded only by BR calculation.  What if we award extra PVP marks when we sink an elite ship that costs PVP marks for the permit, and it is loaded with Navy Hull and Navy Structure.  Instead of the normal say 7 PVP marks based on the BR only, can we add say 50% of the PVP marks from the permit and perms to the normal 7 PVP marks.  Likewise, can we lower all the PVP marks for plain ships a little.  Then if I take a lesser ship to battle an elite he gets less PVP if he wins, I get more if I win.  One problem is we don't want feed elites with easy PVP marks so maybe this will be a way to balance the gamble more fairly.

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14 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

One more thing you have mistaken Mr. Admin.  Gank does not often look like this at all.  Instead it is more like 10x Samurai vs 1 newbie.

Give that newbie a change and remove this shitty idea of Samurais.

i agree - but lets ignore them for a little while


There is a lot of average players - we want them to start fighting more and stop running - they all have no gear!!!

 

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