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Unequal battles

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I am wondering: are we discussing how to have more ppl joining pvp... Or the contrary??

Check list=

Are vets better than casuals? Yes.

Does skill matter in this game? Yes.

Does gear matter? Yes.

Does good gear cost? Yes.

Are vets able to better equip their ships and consider them more expendable? Yes.

Is the sum of these 5 "yes" whats making fair pvp less viable and enjoyable for casual players (and less targets for vets too)? Yes.

From a dev point of view, how can he reduce these yes?

A dev cant make noobs better nor vets crappier. Nor he can cancel skill from equation.

Can he make older vets poor? Yes, still usually not a good idea.

What a dev can do is making gear being less important... Like reducing stackability, nerfing bonuses or a mix, and reducing a lot differences between cheap gear and expensive one... As I posted a few pages ago.

Only reducing gear gap and nice fitted ships costs you can make casuals accepting the high chance of being sunk.

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Repairs shouldn't be an entity. You should only get 1 of each in battle that automatically replenish every time a new instance is loaded, so I get 1 in battle, then 1 in OW. 

The worse thing that I'm finding out about OW hunting is that unless there's a open port nearby, I have have only 2-3 battles worth of repairs until I have to return to a port which takes many minutes of my time.

Battle's are never ending, there's no skill in endless sailing in 1 direction and repairing. Most of the time it's not that experienced players kill multiple targets, but they get away from multiple targets and come right back to gank someone 1v1. You shouldn't put yourself in a position to get jumped by 12 people anyway. If you really are skilled you can out damage your enemy to get away, not put in the most minor effort that relies all on ship and repair speed.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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2 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

I am wondering: are we discussing how to have more ppl joining pvp... Or the contrary??

Check list=

Are vets better than casuals? Yes.

Does skill matter in this game? Yes.

Does gear matter? Yes.

Does good gear cost? Yes.

Are vets able to better equip their ships and consider them more expendable? Yes.

Is the sum of these 5 "yes" whats making fair pvp less viable and enjoyable for casual players (and less targets for vets too)? Yes.

From a dev point of view, how can he reduce these yes?

A dev cant make noobs better nor vets crappier. Nor he can cancel skill from equation.

Can he make older vets poor? Yes, still usually not a good idea.

What a dev can do is making gear being less important... Like reducing stackability, nerfing bonuses or a mix, and reducing a lot differences between cheap gear and expensive one... As I posted a few pages ago.

Only reducing gear gap and nice fitted ships costs you can make casuals accepting the high chance of being sunk.

 

Exactly.....instead people come up with the solution that we'll "trick" them into fighting! You could make this into a comedy if it wasn't so sad in the end....

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6 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

I am wondering: are we discussing how to have more ppl joining pvp... Or the contrary??

Check list=

Are vets better than casuals? Yes.

Does skill matter in this game? Yes.

Does gear matter? Yes.

Does good gear cost? Yes.

Are vets able to better equip their ships and consider them more expendable? Yes.

Is the sum of these 5 "yes" whats making fair pvp less viable and enjoyable for casual players (and less targets for vets too)? Yes.

From a dev point of view, how can he reduce these yes?

A dev cant make noobs better nor vets crappier. Nor he can cancel skill from equation.

Can he make older vets poor? Yes, still usually not a good idea.

What a dev can do is making gear being less important... Like reducing stackability, nerfing bonuses or a mix, and reducing a lot differences between cheap gear and expensive one... As I posted a few pages ago.

Only reducing gear gap and nice fitted ships costs you can make casuals accepting the high chance of being sunk.

And add on top of that:

Do average players have a chance to win against a vet if they do not learn PVP? NO

Do average players learn PVP if they do not get into PVP battles? NO

Do average players get any actual reward by loosing in a PVP fight? NO

Do average players get into PVP with no chance of winning and no actual reward if they loose? NO

'nuff I said.

Edited by victor
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11 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Veterans were newcomers once. They weren't born like that :D

 

Still newcomers need to keep playing for a while to become vets. Humiliting them could nt be the best way.

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Some People have mentioned PVP flags already, but why not put a Twist on it.

Everyone is PVP flagged, if you want to put a PVE flag on, for example to sail to MT to drop off Parisienne Furniture, you would have to buy it.

The cost should be substantial, but not restrictive, and should only last for a given period of time.

New Players, up to the 3rd rank would be able to sail under the PVE flag at all times, enabling them to rank up and learn in peace.

At the 4th rank you are automatically flagged for PVP.

Ships in open world could be classified as for example "2ships Spanish Nation" . When viewed through the spyglass the class of ship will be seen, eg 5th rate and 4th rate, or frigate and Lineship. When you move closer more Information could be given.

Could also be a perk introduced, for example expert lookout ( plus 20 % to ship recognition).

At no time in this is a Player Name shown, perhaps only in the actual battle Screen, under a range of 750 metres, the lookout identifies the ship

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1 minute ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Still newcomers need to keep playing for a while to become vets. Humiliting them could nt be the best way.

100% agree m8, both ways.

Many vets find funny to insult the victims.

Many vets also try to share tips and are received with flak...

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On the flip side I only target new players as a good PVPer because I just don't care and want to punish noobs because it's easy.

Now what?

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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All good. Keep cool headed, no insults, have a good chat. This is leisure time activity, hobby.

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Pvp flag on pve server, sure

Pvp flag on a pvp server in a mmo? Hell no

Spread ressources needed for upgrades across some more ports, but in general, its not like "gear is not available for everyone" - it is, its an MMO PvP game, you want a ressource you go capture it or buy it

It is an MMO afterall and I think upgrades like they are atm are in a decent spot. If you strongly disagree you might be more interested in NAL

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Another Suggestion could be to replace missions from the 4th rank with more and larger OW fleets,

if you want to grind a rank or Knowledge Slot you will Need to attack ships in the OW.

For this to work properly the looting mechanism would have to be reworked, because at the Moment it is very frustrating when the target ship alters Course into the wind, and you cannot get to it before it sinks, and if you are fighting multiple ships, you will not have the opportunity to loot every one.

 

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The majority of people who want names removed are the top 5-15 top PvP players because they will be able to get more kills I highly doubt medium-lower skilled players want it.

Example A: new player gets new ship equips mods sails meets player think yay I have a chance gets smashed... now he thinks great got rekt by who? A veteran brilliant at least i lost to the best OR got rekt by unknown player newb questions did i lose to average joe or a veteran, did crap in battle was it because enemy is veteran or just my performance..?.. 

As I said before topic is UNEQUAL BATTLES not how to promote or avoid a 1v1.

Most players will not fight 3v1 unless they are forced to because if I lose copper, bovenwinds & French rig I have to invest x amount of time/gold to replace them & sometimes you go looking for 1v1 and only find uneven fights meaning your ship is not setup for that scenario...

Edited by Spitfire83
AND running away, tactical withdrawal, retreating are all viable military tactics they won't win you the war but you live to fight another day
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7 minutes ago, Spitfire83 said:

The majority of people who want names removed are the top 5-15 top PvP players because they will be able to get more kills I highly doubt medium-lower skilled players want it.

out of your ass. It works both ways.  I only hunt noobs because they're easy to kill and I can easily see who's a noob. Do you promote people farming noobs or indiscriminate PVP?

(no i don't actually hunt noobs but there are people who do for various reasons)

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

This sounds interesting as concept.

In general, making battles easier for people will bore the same people sooner or later once they improved their skills.

The golden way is somewhere in the middle; you don't want to make battle too easy for denying the challenge and you don't want to make battle too hard for frustrating others.

Scientifically, you're the most engaged if you loose, but by a small margin (so that you know that you can win if you put more effort). The next best is winning, but by a small margin.

To engage people the most (so that they don't want to fight), fights should give them an option to achieve something from time to time, however make it hard FOR THEM. The trick is that level of players vary.

This achievement doesn't even have to be sinking of enemy fleet. It can be anything - even eg. a certain level of damage, or surviving for a given time against a given number of enemies.
 

Edited by vazco

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2 hours ago, Red Dragon 13 said:

I repeat my post in case it got lost in the discussion

" I don´t know if this has been already proposed:

In the case of suffering the loss of your ship due to ganking (measured as gankers BR/your BR and having been attacked, let´s say, 3/1) you do not lose your ship, it should reappear in the exact same trim (maybe with no mods) and cannons in your nearest outpost. This feature would remove the worst fear, that of loosing a beloved ship and to have to grind to get a new one."

I aslo like Vazco´s statement: ..." This achievement doesn't even have to be sinking of enemy fleet. It can be anything - even eg. a certain level of damage, or surviving for a given time against a given number of enemies" .

What if, in case of abysmal BR difference, reinforcements could be called anywhere after, say, 30 minutes fight.

 

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1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

What if you had to hail players and they hail you back to see names/rank info. Wouldn't that add more player interaction as apposed to just looking at the info?

I have the option to withhold information from you or give it. That's more personal interaction than it just letting it show to everyone.

Right, didn't think of that. 

Wasn't hailing in ealier versions of the game already?

And one more thing: I think I would get tired from hailig back all the time. So maybe there could be implemented options like „Always hail back nation“ to automatically hail back to your comrades from your respecting nation, and „Always hail back all“, and „Always hail back friends“.

I could befriend something like that.

Edited by Nuntius Mortis
Grammar
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Let's try a (very) basic algorythm

the total amount of hull damage + sail damage + crew kills done by player A in a battle instance = X

all the hull HP + all sails HP + all crew (+ the amount of hull HP and sails HP and crew repaired during the battle) of all the ships involved in that battle in the opposite team = Y

Y/X = Z is the number that represent the personal contribution of the specific player to that battle for his team

Make a table where different ranges of Z determine the number of PVP marks that the player will be awarded at the end of the battle + add a flat sum of marks in case A sinks some enemy (i.e. the marks that are awarded now) + (eventually) add a hard cap for the total amount of marks that can be gained by player A in case he is sunk during the battle.

 

 

Edited by victor

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1 hour ago, Liq said:

Pvp flag on pve server, sure

Pvp flag on a pvp server in a mmo? Hell no

Spread ressources needed for upgrades across some more ports, but in general, its not like "gear is not available for everyone" - it is, its an MMO PvP game, you want a ressource you go capture it or buy it

It is an MMO afterall and I think upgrades like they are atm are in a decent spot. If you strongly disagree you might be more interested in NAL

Dont forget that your name alone open doors. The average player dosent have access like you.

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Just trying to think outside the box here and with it obvious that PvP vets seem to have the pick of the mods and goodys,what if the perm mods are tied to rank,so to keep this simple copper plating for the highest two ranks 1% speed middle ranks 2% lowest 4 or 5 ranks 3%  an obvious plus for this is new comers will be welcome in clans groups etc because they have a great use for speed taggers , total noobs will find it easier to escape the gank.

Same with the other mods of thickness etc,it may not stop unequal fights but may level the playing field

Probably impossible to implement maybe,just throwing it out there.

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As I see it, there are (should be anyway) roughly 3 groups of players:

Hardcore Traders/crafters -- These are the guys that sail around just buying and selling materials. They may engage in PvE to try and gain XP, gold, CM's, and drop-only items, but that's it. They understand that getting attacked by other players is part of the risk of trading, but they will not actively seek PvP, and will generally fight defensively with the goal to get as many ships out of harms way as possible. These guys will simply not be enticed to seek out PvP, nor should they be. They should be given a robust tools/mechanic set to encourage them to sail to more distant places on the map plying their wares. This also has the benefit of more potential PvP action for the other player types.

Casual Players -- These are the guys that kind of do a bit of everything. They craft, PvE, PvP, trade, and even RvR. These are the ones, in my opinion, that need more incentive to PvP, though. They don't trade enough to have massive amounts of gold to buy PvP marks or top upgrade or top ships, and they don't PvP enough to sell marks for gold or have marks to get the bet refits. They enjoy their time more or less, but have almost resigned themselves to rarely using their best gear because they likely cannot replace it. When the CM to VM conversion was removed, they were left behind, and without a CM to VM and VM to PM conversion system, they are just getting further behind.

Hardcore PvP/RvR -- I realize these are not synonymous and that many PvPers don't engage in RvR specifically, but I think the mindset is largely similar so I grouped them together. These are the guys that want to fight other players. They grind Epic Missions and do PvE for the drops only, and get most of their gold from PB's or PvP engagements. They have marks to spare (either VM or PM or both) and can relatively easily replace their lost ships. They need little incentive to PvP.

Note that the people I didn't include were PvE only players. Unless the PvE server is closed, they really shouldn't factor into this discussion.

So the question is, how to encourage group 2? Well, I have some thoughts as I am in that group:

  • No CM/PM for capturing ships needs to change. One method players like me have to replace lost ships or acquire good new ships is to take them off other players. But we get no marks for doing so, so since PvP marks are more valuable for me at the moment, the choice is made to sink instead of capture.
  • Increase CM/PM multiplier for lower BR ship against a higher BR ship. Specific example is an assist I got in my Endymion against a Pavel. I got 2 marks. So other than getting to say I got an assist, I got nothing for that battle.
  • Change how mods are implemented on ships. There are several posts already on this, including several by me (decreasing stack bonuses, perm. modules assigned during ship building only and not stackable, no "skill" modules except for gun sights (all other skills are gained through XP/books).
  • Make it easier to acquire/replace good ships (either they get cheaper to craft, or gold becomes easier to earn through combat)

There are many other interesting ideas in this thread, these are just my top 4.


 

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I think the game already tends to favor good players accepting unequal battles to a good extend, and could stay as it is as i mainly think refusing pvp is more of a mindset.

 

What could be done: 

-Wind strenght variation on OW + instance,  making ship ability to escape depending on the wind force of the moment, and each class of ship could escape or be forced into combat depending on wind force at a moment, and could change during a same battle, giving you the possiblity after battling for some time.  Wind direction change in battle was a first step in this direction imo.

 

-Longer timer or just increased turnrate  when going back to OW  after leaving a battle.

 

- Changing the way how smaller ships can push and ram larger ones with very few consequences.

 

Bonus

- Accepting or being caught in an uneven battle could result in a form of calculation for compensation depending on the moment you surrender (the closer to sinking the better) and the damages inflicted (enemy killed, shocks dealt, pen shots) and received (total damage you received/ crew loss/ pen shots) while taking into account being outnumbered or outgunned. After surrendering you could have the option to scuttle your ship ( timed process of one or more minutes  after surrendering, you enemy can stop the process via the hold screen.

 

 This calculation could then result in a "minor loss" end result instead of "major loss" (the actual one unchanged) if sunk or surrender without giving a fight or vs a weaker enemy. 

 

The point is : usually, from my understanding, captains of the age of sail faced trials after each fight to determine if the captain and officers acted rightly and made the good choices, resulting on giving you a new affectation or some kind of punishment. Now we have the punishement (loosing our affectation) but not so much to go back to fight. pvp shop / marks for kills in a lost battle are a first step in this direction, but could be extended to some degree.

 

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec
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1 hour ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

The point is : usually, from my understanding, captains of the age of sail faced trials after each fight to determine if the captain and officers acted rightly and made the good choices, resulting on giving you a new affectation or some kind of punishment. Now we have the punishement (loosing our affectation) but not so much to go back to fight. pvp shop / marks for kills in a lost battle are a first step in this direction, but could be extended to some degree.

 

AFAIK, RN captains would face a court martial if they lost their ship, and the result could be anything from nothing (they acted properly) to death (not sure if anyone actually was sentenced to death for losing their ship, but it was a possible outcome).

I don't see a need to implement such a mechanic in game, as losing a ship here isn't the same as losing a nation's publicly or crown-owned war machine.

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I sail only 7/6th rates, only thing i want to add is i want to be able to tag bigger ships, got more fun/challenge by figthing 5th rates with them, but i had to turn around waiting they tag me... Surcouf and some other privateers/pyrates took  bigger ships than theirs, why not in NA...

What i didn't understand it's a 7/6th rate cant tag a bigger ship but a bigger ship can tag a little ship, which can be a noob, btw...

This message, "BR limit...", haunt my worst nightmares... Hahaarr

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