Impact Tagging

[Slim McSauce]

Has this ever been tried? Is it even possible? Are there any downsides to this?

Reduced tag circle that engages once you hit a certain distance from an enemy ship on the OW.

This would make more sense in my eyes and make area denial/blockading possible.

[jodgi]

Hasn't been tried.

The idea sounds perfect at first glance.

Just know that people like to be able to escape and counter-tag so there would be butt-hurt and resistance to something like this, especially after enough people have experienced being the victim.

 

[HachiRoku]

I like the idea but sailing with other "allies" would be impossible. The tag circle should be a bit smaller imo and the pull circle just stay as it is. There is nothing more game breaking imo than defensive taging and escaping to a close port.... 

[Slim McSauce]

Sorry I still don't understand why it would be a pain. Can you please explain? I do agree the normal tag circle should be reduced if anything. Nothing more annoying than dealing with the range and finickiness of the click and wait tag. With the same rules and restrictions it would work pretty much exactly the same as the normal tagging. You aren't going to suddenly get pulled in by a single prince, v your fleet because it got close to you. BR rules still apply.

Where impact tagging shines is that it rewards OW positioning and sailing, if you can put yourself right at the enemy and hit them straight on then you'll get a battle with you very close and face to face to your foe. How it is with just normal tagging is every battle starts in a "chase" arrangement because you have to keep pace with the ship for 15 seconds which requires you moving parallel to it.

So this improves that by giving your ship a zone of engagement that can't be trespassed on by enemy players sailing through you on OW. You actually have a way to block off players who are running, block entry/exit to certain ports (not a capital because an immediate tag of anything that crosses you in a reinforcement zone is going to end badly)
and give the feel that your ship has some weight, some realistic characteristics so that OW isn't a completely separate reality to the once in battle, and that OW is connected more similar to in combat.

I propose instead of this being the primary means of tagging, make it the secondary tag system, so keep normal tagging as is, maybe slightly reduced. But introduce impact tagging as an automatic 2nd stage that will trigger at a certain distance and make this distance very small, 1.5-2 ship lengths at most. I think this is a fair compromise for a system that could benefit the quality of OW immensely.

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[Thonys]

In eve :

a small ship has a tag of 1-3 seconds..  

and for the larger ones it is 10-15  seconds (in general..and l let take the signature out of it for the moment, just in general)

 

tag ships should do, what tag ships do best >>tagging

it is possible to make .:

1...: -counter mesure modules should be installed somehow (double distance modules when tagged ,or instant tag module  for example, or defensive tag module for 15 seconds[ to get away and flee] to make distance from the fight

 

2...:  - we leave it at the current systems (and adjust it )  and reduce tagging by adjusting for different kind of ships where a cutter tags a lynx tags in 3 seconds

and a pavel tags a victory or lynx in 12 seconds (for example)

 

-perhaps ,it is worth testing this kind of upgrades or features. the question remains ,must we install this kind of feature..

and it seems there is probably a need for both options it seems

 

  in both cases it will increase the learning curve to a higher level of the captain skill

 

i personally do like option 2: small ships have a faster battle readiness, than a huge ship with many things to organise >>  going into battle.

what means, a small ship has a shorter tag time, and bigger ships have a bigger tag time to tag.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Thonys

[maturin]

Pretty sure the current system is designed to work with low ping and not stress the server.

[Slim McSauce]

4 hours ago, Thonys said:

In eve :a small ship has a tag of 1-3 seconds..  and for the larger ones it is 10-15  seconds (in general..and l let take the signature out of it for the moment, just in general)tag ships should do, what tag ships do best >>tagging

it is possible to make .:

1...: -counter mesure modules should be installed somehow (double distance modules when tagged ,or instant tag module  for example, or defensive tag module for 15 seconds[ to get away and flee] to make distance from the fight

2...:  - we leave it at the current systems (and adjust it )  and reduce tagging by adjusting for different kind of ships where a cutter tags a lynx tags in 3 seconds and a pavel tags a victory or lynx in 12 seconds (for example)

-perhaps ,it is worth testing this kind of upgrades or features. the question remains ,must we install this kind of feature..and it seems there is probably a need for both options it seems. in both cases it will increase the learning curve to a higher level of the captain skill

 

i personally do like option 2: small ships have a faster battle readiness, than a huge ship with many things to organise >>  going into battle. what means, a small ship has a shorter tag time, and bigger ships have a bigger tag time to tag.

I like variable tag timers, as they are the main way to tag an enemy, but I still think there is a need for physical presence on OW. It simply doesn't make sense for an enemy to sail right through you as you wait for 10 seconds for the tag timer to hit. It makes the OW seem like its not trying to represent real work position like it actual is.

[SKurj]

But isn't the chase scenario tag more 'realistic'?

 

[Tiedemann]

I like this idea a lot. So you tag in OW the counter is counting down and if you actually manage to get close enough to your target it just instant starts the battle. But I doubt the devs would even try to test it at this point.. : /

This is not intended to derail the original idea but I always preferred the two circles system. 1 big circle for dragging the ships around us in OW and then a much smaller one for the tag it self. With this system defensive tags where less effective and tag in general became better speeding up the time needed for chasing inside the battle. 

And I never understood why the tag timers are 15 seconds, this is to long. Should be like someone mentioned here, different for ship types/classes. For example 4 for shallows, 8 for frigates and 12 seconds for big ships.   

 

[Slim McSauce]

23 minutes ago, SKurj said:

But isn't the chase scenario tag more 'realistic'?

 

No, because if I'm in front of a ship coming at me I'm going to engage before it passes me. I'm not going to wait and chase before I engage when I'm already in position

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Tiedemann said:

I like this idea a lot. So you tag in OW the counter is counting down and if you actually manage to get close enough to your target it just instant starts the battle. But I doubt the devs would even try to test it at this point.. : /

What I like the most is it opens up tons of new tactics and strategies that otherwise would not be possible. For instance you we can have actual, real port blockading without adding any specific feature for it, you literally just park yourself outside of the port, just like they would in real life! 

That would be heckin cool if you ask me.

[SKurj]

2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

No, because if I'm in front of a ship coming at me I'm going to engage before it passes me. I'm not going to wait and chase before I engage when I'm already in position

But zoomy zoom speedboats aside... in reality the chase could last days before engagement as captains maneuvered for position or just plain fleeing, doesn't this now take tagging to the same level as rageboarding?  (just being devil's advocate here)

The tag now becomes a twitch mechanic for both sides of the engagement

[Slim McSauce]

27 minutes ago, SKurj said:

But zoomy zoom speedboats aside... in reality the chase could last days before engagement as captains maneuvered for position or just plain fleeing, doesn't this now take tagging to the same level as rageboarding?  (just being devil's advocate here)

The tag now becomes a twitch mechanic for both sides of the engagement

If you consider putting yourself in front of the chase, so the enemy can't just pass through you is twitch then I suppose.

But that's how it was in real life. If I am right in front of you, how are you gonna get pass me without retaliation from myself? The answer is you won't. A chase is a chase but a block is a block. Just like there were chases, there were ships getting cut off from in front, forcing them to fight or surrender. 

Of course BR is still going to apply, its not a pathway to abuse. You just have to be more careful where you go. In return we receive a mechanic that opens a lot of new strategies/gameplay elements. Ones that make sense for the setting.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[SKurj]

2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

If you consider putting yourself in front of the chase, so the enemy can't just pass through you is twitch then I suppose.

But that's how it was in real life. If I am right in front of you, how are you gonna get pass me without retaliation from myself? The answer is you won't. A chase is a chase but a block is a block. Just like there were chases, there were ships getting cut off from in front, forcing them to fight or surrender. 

Understood I wasn't seeing it from that perspective, I was seeing it from the perspective of 'now we are this close the battle starts' regardless of positioning.

[Slim McSauce]

I was hunting traders and whattaya know and look at this, an almost perfect sized mini circle already in game that could be the impact tag circle for every ship,
(with the option to normal tag.)

Edited February 18, 2018 by Slim Jimmerson

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

I was hunting traders and whattaya know and look at this, an almost perfect sized mini circle already in game that could be the impact tag circle for every ship,
(with the option to normal tag.)

I really hate to be the only killjoy in the room, but do you know what that circle represents?

It indicates the lower limit of the server's reliability when it comes to tracking ship positions.

"Don't get inside this or your tag position will be hello kittyed up."

Impact tagging is incompatible with seizing or conceding the weather gauge. It will be a toss-up.

Also, starting at fight from 3 shiplengths away is cancer.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, maturin said:

Also, starting at fight from 3 shiplengths away is cancer.

Oooof, yes, forgot about that.

When we had duel room ships started so close we usually came to an agreement to separate first in order to have a fight instead of just crashing info each other in the race for position and wind.

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, maturin said:

I really hate to be the only killjoy in the room, but do you know what that circle represents?

It indicates the lower limit of the server's reliability when it comes to tracking ship positions.

"Don't get inside this or your tag position will be hello kittyed up."

Impact tagging is incompatible with seizing or conceding the weather gauge. It will be a toss-up.

Also, starting at fight from 3 shiplengths away is cancer.

Explain how its cancer? I don't see why we go through the trouble of having an OW with tagging that represents position on the battle map if we're gonna let the unsavory "feature" of letting ships pass right through you, (well within gun range) while you have to turn around and wait for a timer to count down while starting 700 meters away shooting stray chains as you slowly and slowly snuff your way up to this ship almost enough to turn and get a broadside and they pop a repair and dust you.

I'm not kidding when I say this is 98% of OW battles. It's gotten pretty stale.

[maturin]

23 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Explain how its cancer? I don't see why we go through the trouble of having an OW with tagging that represents position on the battle map if we're gonna let the unsavory "feature" of letting ships pass right through you, (well within gun range) while you have to turn around and wait for a timer to count down while starting 700 meters away shooting stray chains as you slowly and slowly snuff your way up to this ship almost enough to turn and get a broadside and they pop a repair and dust you.

I'm not kidding when I say this is 98% of OW battles. It's gotten pretty stale.

If we're going to skip half the battle, why not just fast-forward to the part where the yardarms are locked together and it's 'boarders away?' You can't just deprive your opponent of the opportunity the maneuver (read: play the game) in the instance as you approach. There has to be a counter-tag opportunity at the very least.

I'm not going to defend OW tagging as a particularly good mechanic. In a perfect world we would have something like impact tagging, and the ships would never spawn closer than 700-1000 yards. But that isn't possible because of server limitations and because we have land in battles. Maybe in the next game.

In the meantime, not shooting to leeward of the enemy is also a skill.

Edited February 19, 2018 by maturin

[Slim McSauce]

34 minutes ago, maturin said:

If we're going to skip half the battle, why not just fast-forward to the part where the yardarms are locked together and it's 'boarders away?' You can't just deprive your opponent of the opportunity the maneuver (read: play the game) in the instance as you approach. There has to be a counter-tag opportunity at the very least.

I'm not going to defend OW tagging as a particularly good mechanic. In a perfect world we would have something like impact tagging, and the ships would never spawn closer than 700-1000 yards. But that isn't possible because of server limitations and because we have land in battles. Maybe in the next game.

In the meantime, not shooting to leeward of the enemy is also a skill.

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MANEUVER, ITS ON THE OW!! JUST DON'T RUN SQUARE INTO AN ENEMY PLAYER WHO CAN WRECK YOU.

And I'd like to see the admin himself say that we can't do it because engine limitations. More like coder limitations.

[Fargo]

5 hours ago, maturin said:

Also, starting at fight from 3 shiplengths away is cancer.

You can spawn ships at the distance you want. For example at 700m barely inside control range.

I dont get your points why it shoudnt be possible. When a ship appears infront of you and he has the wind, then thats how it is. Why should you magically get behind him?! You can manouver as much as you want, when you get within effective cannon range combat starts as it would in reality. Battles arent fought at 700m, there is plenty of room to manouver. You can also increase control + spawn range for more room, at cost of longer lasting chases.

Engine limitations?! We only change the condition for the instance to open.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Fargo

[maturin]

1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MANEUVER, ITS ON THE OW!! JUST DON'T RUN SQUARE INTO AN ENEMY PLAYER WHO CAN WRECK YOU.

THE OW SAILING SUCKS AND EVERYONE HATES IT. THE GAME TAKES PLACE IN INSTANCES THAT DONT SUCK

Seriously, that's worth putting in caps in any context. If this game is judged by the WASD gameplay on the OW, it is a 2/10. Does anyone here disagree with me?

One blindingly obvious aspect of game design is making sure people spend more time interacting with you game's strengths, not its weaknesses.

And FFS, now we have speed mods that don't work on the OW.

 

Quote

Battles arent fought at 700m

Spawning at 700m is fine. Spawning at 70m is not. I can shoot you at 700m. You shouldn't be able to use time warp magic to take away my opportunity to shoot you from 700m while you approach.

You have a vastly better chance of using tricky maneuvering to steal the wind from an attacker in the context of janky OW tag timers and crappy laggy ship controls.

Edited February 19, 2018 by maturin

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, maturin said:

THE OW SAILING SUCKS AND EVERYONE HATES IT. THE GAME TAKES PLACE IN INSTANCES THAT DONT SUCK

Seriously, that's worth putting in caps in any context. If this game is judged by the WASD gameplay on the OW, it is a 2/10. Does anyone here disagree with me?

One blindingly obvious aspect of game design is making sure people spend more time interacting with you game's strengths, not its weaknesses.

And FFS, now we have speed mods that don't work on the OW.

 

Spawning at 700m is fine. Spawning at 70m is not. I can shoot you at 700m. You shouldn't be able to use time warp magic to take away my opportunity to shoot you from 700m while you approach.

You have a vastly better chance of using tricky maneuvering to steal the wind from an attacker in the context of janky OW tag timers and crappy laggy ship controls.

What a shitty attitude. Lets not make the game any better because it sucks anyway yet we're all here. Definitely not agreeing with you on anything. 
If you just want good battles and shit OW then go to legends, your opinion isn't warranted.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

your opinion isn't warranted

Ooooh, fun.

[Nelsons Barrel]

2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

What a shitty attitude. Lets not make the game any better because it sucks anyway yet we're all here. Definitely not agreeing with you on anything. 
If you just want good battles and shit OW then go to legends, your opinion isn't warranted.

@maturin is right though, everything except the battle instances is at best mediocre. The OW naval action is more successful than legends because every battle can be different, you never know how big the battle gets and you can win against the odds while legends will throw you against a 'balanced' enemy party.

A not instanced battle game is what I wish for NA2.