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Patch 17: Finalization of the sailing and combat models

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1 hour ago, Christendom said:

could someone please explain to me....like I'm a 5 year old.....why the aggie has a higher BR rating than the Wasa (which just got a buff)?

To quote @admin, because formulas don't play dice. LOL DPS + hull strength apparently.

Unfortunately what the dev's don't acknowledge is that the variables and their magical coefficients or weights they assign to these variables across ships do seem to be pulled from thin air and might as well be determined with dice.

What I would like to see are the battle outcomes for each ship and a model fit to these variables: broadside weight, side hp, side thickness, turn speed, average upwind speed, average downwind speed. The weights for BR would then be assigned based on how K/D varies between ships while holding any of those variables constant.

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4 hours ago, Liq said:

Looks good overall, but one question remains...

Surprise same BR as Pirate frigate? 

It has much worse masts and 9s + 6s compared to 18s + 12s.

I believe they are basing it off of max caliber guns which means surprise out dps a pirate frigate with carros on both ships.

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7 hours ago, admin said:

Captains

Final part of the sailing model and ship stats tuning have been deployed.

  • Battle ratings for vessels have been updated based on their strength and close range sustained damage
  • Sailing model and wind polars
    • After testing and monitoring the usage of ships we have decided against exaggerated curves for vessels and have moved to fully historical sail composition.
      • previously we buffed downwind or upwind performance to create differences, which caused some ships to become useless or less useful.
    • All sails area have been recalculated based on their optimal and potential sail area, that could be achieved by the captain by trimming or adapting his sail plan, within constraints of ship mast lengths and yard lengths. 

 

Will there be more options of sail trims in battle to produce altered profiles?

For example, there are no real differences when being Full sail or Half sail except a speed difference. Going slow sail is useless.

Lets say I only want my foremast sails down for better turning downwind, will this be an option the sailor can perform?

 

Many ships sailed with battle sails in combat to avoid catching fire, I think battle sail should have more of a use in battle than reduced speed.

 

Also it be useful if the amount of sailing crew changed as you changed how much sail you had 

Edited by pit
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42 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Wasa 290 BR as third rate

Agamemnon 300 BR as fourth rate

 

Is this intended?

yes and no
BR from this patch will depend on the formula. Formula will adapt as we go - thus BR will evolve over the next week or two. 
BR changes are intended but numbers are not final. 

We deploy patches as they are ready and some undeveloped or unfinished features will get it in parallel. The player overreaction is exaggerated no-one will remember the issue in 30 days. 

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1 hour ago, Comeonche said:

Wait, you really agree to this new Battlerating???!

nobody died yet... The BR won't stop anybody from playing... We just have to adjust our PB fleets until the BR is finalized.

7 minutes ago, admin said:

yes and no
BR from this patch will depend on the formula. Formula will adapt as we go - thus BR will evolve over the next week or two. 
BR changes are intended but numbers are not final. 

We deploy patches as they are ready and some undeveloped or unfinished features will get it in parallel. The player overreaction is exaggerate no-one will remember the issue in 30 days. 

fortunately it will be fixed as we play along.

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31 minutes ago, pit said:

Many ships sailed with battle sails in combat to avoid catching fire, I think battle sail should have more of a use in battle than reduced speed.

Sailing under topsails may mean using only 30% of your square canvas, for some ships. But topsails are the most useful and powerful sails, so IRL you would expect to make more than 30% of your top speed.

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@admin

I may be looking too much into this picture, as my assumption is just that its a placeholder or being used as some sort of clan flag but is there any reason why the Venetian peace flag is used over the Lion of St Mark holding a sword, which would make a lot more sense in the game. While there are quite a few variants the item being held by the Lion is quite significant, the book symbolises openness, learning and humanism.

crqFBBt.jpg

 

Where as the sword symbolises themes such as superiority, power and sacrifice, the example below also contains the book shut under the left paw which has symbolism in itself but there are about 8 different common variations so I will save people of the bore of the details.

800px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Venice.svg

 

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30 minutes ago, admin said:

yes and no
BR from this patch will depend on the formula. Formula will adapt as we go - thus BR will evolve over the next week or two. 

Some common sense before you make a release could be used.

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37 minutes ago, admin said:

yes and no
BR from this patch will depend on the formula. Formula will adapt as we go - thus BR will evolve over the next week or two. 
BR changes are intended but numbers are not final. 

We deploy patches as they are ready and some undeveloped or unfinished features will get it in parallel. The player overreaction is exaggerate no-one will remember the issue in 30 days. 

I will remember.

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15 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I will remember.

Wasa BR  was 250 for like 6 months?

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31 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Some common sense before you make a release could be used.

it is common sense in early access
we deploy as soon as main part is ready - it is a lot faster this way.  I am sure you are enjoying new curves for frigates and I am sure you are not not really upset because today 74 br is 5pts higher than bellona due to higher close range DPS at max .cal. 

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15 minutes ago, admin said:

Wasa BR  was 250 for like 6 months?

throughout most of that time, BR was fairly irrelevant. The only downside due to Wasa having way too low BR  was insufficient reward generation for PVP. Only when BR limits to PBs were added, the 250 BR became a problem.

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5 hours ago, admin said:

No Captain. 
Solo engagement had same % of demasting in sustained combat.

Lt16c1u.jpg
ir1uSry.jpg
MHnQUXB.jpg

But there is always a counter. You can fit your ship against similar opponents to never get fully demasted. You cant against much heavier ships. 

Exactly but a couple of points. These were mostly very close range fights. Specifically in the engagements above masts came down and rigging was damaged after being entangled and the standing rigging shot away weakening the masts.

What would be rare is an entire mast coming down after being shot at with several rounds of 42 lb ball from 500m. Personally I haven't played since the recent patch so I don't know if that has changed in game.

 

4 hours ago, maturin said:

So did you, err, read any combat reports?

It's basically unheard-of for two frigates to get in a fight without at least a topmast coming down. If nobody was dismasted, it's probably because one side got totally crushed in 15 minutes.

Of course, even when Chesapeake was captured in 15 minutes, the decisive factor was rig damage. Her jibs were shredded and she luffed up to get boarded.

This is an example of sail control lines being shot away, but again a very close range engagement. (I'd also argue Chesapeake had multiple problems but I get your point).

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24 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Exactly but a couple of points. These were mostly very close range fights. Specifically in the engagements above masts came down and rigging was damaged after being entangled and the standing rigging shot away weakening the masts.

What would be rare is an entire mast coming down after being shot at with several rounds of 42 lb ball from 500m. Personally I haven't played since the recent patch so I don't know if that has changed in game.

 

This is an example of sail control lines being shot away, but again a very close range engagement. (I'd also argue Chesapeake had multiple problems but I get your point).

Thank you for underlining something I repeated a lot.

Demasting happened. A lot. Not purposely aiming balls to masts at 100 mt.

Period.

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I look forward to BR adjustments hopefully making more sense in the future tweaks. 

Personally, I don't think "DPS" should play a role in BR. People talk about it all the time, but to put it in perspective, lets consider an example: 18pdrs have higher DPS than 24pdrs right? So two equal Constitutions, one with 18pdrs and one with 24pdrs, equally skilled captains...which will win the battle? Or for a more extreme example...things have probably changed, but the last time I calculated DPS long guns, I believe it was 6pd longs that had the best DPS...should the Constitution load those instead? (can it even load those? I think the minimum is 9pdrs).  Surely, since they out-DPS 24s, they are the better choice, right?  Ultimately, using smaller cannons for higher DPS is a joke in a real battle (unless you are using EdiNOOB guns).

Instead, BR should be set, by ship, taking into account all aspects of that ship. I'd love to sail an Indefatigable into a PB some day. Unfortunately, the BR is simply too high in comparison to the other ships I could bring which would perform much better in a PB setting.

Perhaps a new mechanic could be added to help this: when a player joins a PB, he has the "Port Battle BR" applied to his ship. When he is sailing in OW, he has the standard BR. This could be handy because, in a 1v1, any 4th rate vs Indefatigable is a roughly even match, with the 4th rates being slightly advantaged, BR should (and looking at the new list, I think it does) reflect that. In a PB, however,  Indefatigable is no match for a 4th rate, BR should reflect that (it does not, the BR is simply too close). So sailing in OW, an Indefatigable skipper would see the normal BR, when he joins a PB, however, the PB BR is applied and his ship doesn't take up as much BR.  Indefatigable is not alone in this situation, all ships could benefit from this system. But it may be difficult to code into the game.
 

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6 hours ago, McKnight said:

This list is taken from the games database and should be correct (I only made an error on the LGV Refit). All the ships we have seen today is correct according to the list

It can be found as spreadsheet here as well: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1znngzQBj6DHuYNHsYeh-Mw9fzHVYV6AlqzSjLaKOfAU/edit#gid=0

Thanks but still would been nice if Devs released this with the patch notes as it's important info to know.  Also would be nice if BR's where listed on the ship card in port.  I hate having to go to sea to check my BR's out every time.

6 hours ago, admin said:

Regarding BR

The formula needs some minor tweaks to incorporate Spike damage, and dps at 500m. That will make it perfect and will fix some strange differences.

The problem is not every one uses that key load out, so if I go one way my BR should be higher, but I go another way than it should be lower?  So my Renno with all 6 lbrs will out DPS a 9 lbr Renno so it should have a higher BR cause I have lighter guns?  I don't get this thinking.  Yah it needs some tweeking along with the Port BR rating if it's going to stay close to this list.

4 hours ago, Christendom said:

could someone please explain to me....like I'm a 5 year old.....why the aggie has a higher BR rating than the Wasa (which just got a buff)?

Maybe just maybe we might get the Aggy's old stats back?

4 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

because.....:mellow:

One is a 3rd rate the other a 4th rate.

Wait....:huh:

If she had her old stats back from when she came out she could fall under 3rd rate again with the Wasa lol

4 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I think it's funny that DPS is considered a thing when a lot of folks have looked at the numbers and have consistently said that always fitting the best Cannon you can load on a ship is better than fitting a smaller caliber.

example, why would you ever fit a 24pd cannon when you can fit a 32pd or 42pd cannon on that deck.

Well in some cases the Carros or lighter guns are better, but should be the norm.  IF they are going to do this than BR should have a range on ships and it is adjusted by you gun lay out so a ship that normally has 250 BR can have like 225-275 according to guns.

4 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

There's a lot of other good stuff in there. Frankly I find the lack of discussion on the new UI, disturbing

I'll discus it when it's in game, so far we are seeing nice place holders, but I want to see it in game first.

2 hours ago, admin said:

yes and no
BR from this patch will depend on the formula. Formula will adapt as we go - thus BR will evolve over the next week or two. 
BR changes are intended but numbers are not final. 

We deploy patches as they are ready and some undeveloped or unfinished features will get it in parallel. The player overreaction is exaggerated no-one will remember the issue in 30 days. 

I don't mind testing new things, but I think most of us feel it's not the correct way to figure out BR for ships.  The listed needed to be adjusted and so does port BR's as it seems the fleet is getting smaller and smaller for them which actually has turned many folks off when you can only bring 5-6 ships instead of say 10-12.   I know folks that stopped playing cause we never see big 25 vs 25 fleets any more.  Some key ports should have the BR limited high enough to still have these big fleet battles.  Maybe you can only bring 10-15 first rates, but you could also bring 25 4th rates at Cart or something like that.  The battle maps of PB's are a bit to big to make it 5-6 ships to attack or defend a port.

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8 hours ago, maturin said:

So did you, err, read any combat reports?

It's basically unheard-of for two frigates to get in a fight without at least a topmast coming down. If nobody was dismasted, it's probably because one side got totally crushed in 15 minutes.

Of course, even when Chesapeake was captured in 15 minutes, the decisive factor was rig damage. Her jibs were shredded and she luffed up to get boarded.

Yeah - the top mast.. Which is basically about 15% of the sail area.. Hardly as game changing as the current full demasts of all three masts we have ingame.. Have you err.... Played this game recently??

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8 hours ago, Louis Garneray said:

 

Ambroise Louis Garneray before being a painter was a sailor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambroise_Louis_Garneray

What is the purpose for a painter to paint a picture? - To depict reality or to invoke an emotional response in the viewer - most often either nobility or royalty, and admiralties that wish to honour decisive victories? Would you call painting - by them self - valid historical sources for depicting a naval engagement?

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10 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

What is the purpose for a painter to paint a picture? - To depict reality or to invoke an emotional response in the viewer - most often either nobility or royalty, and admiralties that wish to honour decisive victories? Would you call painting - by them self - valid historical sources for depicting a naval engagement?

 

FTLOG please don't start a god damn fake news debate in a patch note thread for a video game +

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5 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

 

FTLOG please don't start a god damn fake news debate in a patch note thread for a video game +

lol well... ok.. ehm.. where does this aggresiveness come from.. did you have a happy childhood?

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"have been slightly decreased"

Well, the word 'slightly' seems to mean anything from 50% to 100% for our beloved devs.

We would prefer to have actual DATA. (*(*&^holes).

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