Review and Suggestion of the Impossible Nations

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

After playing Poland and observing the progress and declines of Prussia and Russia as well, I started to formulate a review of sorts of these nations. Let me state though that as Poland I am having a great deal of fun and that this post should not be taken as a means to complain or whine about the "impossible" state of these three nations but rather an observation to which potentially build upon. First being that with the right amount of people they can be successful. With a very few however it lives beyond the difficulty impossible. Now a very small nation population such as Prussia at the start of the merger and Poland could be successful if that population is willing to forget RvR and nation building and be more focused on PvP and more pirate tendencies. But for a population wanting to be much like the original factions and be able to control and maintain a nation lifestyle it is very difficult unless they have the population to support such an endeavor. Many of these qualities of the three impossible nations just based on my observation seem to be more suited for a Pirate themed nation. Focused on more living from free port to free port and creating pockets of ports that are under their control.

So this is my suggestion. First remove the three "impossible" nations. Make Mortimer Town a free town where rather than Shroud Cay, Pirates would start out from. Although you could have Pirates choose which port they wish to start from first choosing from a selection of Free Towns. This would create rather than a nation building Pirate faction a faction actually being more like Pirates, bands for fleet tending to work separately. Now for those people that would rather build a nation as an impossible nation add a nation like Portugal to the South American coast with a single non-capture capital. I know that is not historically accurate but Portugal is a better option for a nation say Prussia, Poland, and Russia when concerned with the Caribbean. Adding another nation with a permanent capital in the south close to the Dutch creating less of a vast Dutch PvE coastline and a place with far more content than what it currently has. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Davos Seasworth

[Christendom]

I was going to make a similar post this weekend about the so called "hardcore" nations, but looks like you beat me to the punch.  

And please don't take this as merely bitching about the plight of Russia here.  We definitely made our bed in regards to our own situation, it is what it is.  The impossible nations just are not sustainable long term and the fact that your crafting hubs will always be available for attack is an achilles heel that forces your members to constantly either be doing or have RVR in the back of their minds.  As seen in Russia, players just cannot constantly do RVR and still play this game.  I can't remember when I joined, maybe late summer sometime...but from that time period on they have constantly been doing some sort of RVR to gain or defend ports.  They had a decent addition of players join during the merge, but ultimately for a smaller nation they had the same group of 25-30 people out there grinding regularly.  People were constantly burning out and our numbers waxed and waned considerably.  Somerset is a finishing move here, but our numbers started to dip well beforehand.... right around the time we took carta.  We over extended and over used our members constantly fighting outside the port and defending sometimes 3 - 4 attacks a day.  Sometimes people just don't want to do PBs for a couple days and like to go carebear it up.  Russia did not afford many that luxury.

I'm not advocating for the hardcore nations to have safe zones, but I am advocating that the hardcore nations simply be removed.  They have no historical basis for being in the caribbean and to be brutally honest....the only reason they were put into the game was a cash grab to sell more copies.  Get rid of the hardcore nations and hopefully the game gets a little less diluted.  

Prussia is perhaps the dark horse here in the fact that they mainly don't do RVR on a full time basis and simply just PVP and (wisely) defend their small holdings.  They could very easily do the same from the pirate nation.  

@rediii and myself have offered solutions in turning the game towards more of a clan based/alliance format, ultimately if NA is going to survive it needs to drop most of it's nations.  

Edited February 16, 2018 by Christendom

[Barbancourt]

I don't feel like these nations were intended to do RVR conquest on a permanent basis, but to instead roam and hold a port here and there and wage a limited campaign at the right time for fun.  They also give people a place to go and escape the oversized personalities in some of the big nations. 

 

[Christendom]

21 minutes ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

I don't feel like these nations were intended to do RVR conquest on a permanent basis, but to instead roam and hold a port here and there and wage a limited campaign at the right time for fun.  They also give people a place to go and escape the oversized personalities in some of the big nations. 

 

Maybe so.  Prussia seems to be working as intended.  but 1/3 of the new nations being successful is not a good statistic. 

Far better ways to implement that sort of play style than 3 nations where you could potentially lose all of your stuff.  

[Barbancourt]

5 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Maybe so.  Prussia seems to be working as intended.  but 1/3 of the new nations being successful is not a good statistic. 

Far better ways to implement that sort of play style than 3 nations where you could potentially lose all of your stuff.  

Depends on where you put your stuff.   How are you defining success?  We haven't quit sailing.  Adapt, change, evolve

[Guest]

I'd like to point out something that admin mentioned. The Pirate nation can't be made "hardcore", because too many new players want to play as a Pyrate. Because of this, I wouldn't want the hardcore nations removed unless we create some sort of Outlaw nation instead. 

I think one of the keys to our success in Prussia is our approach to holding ports and where we base ourselves. Right now most every Prussian clan is mostly based out of free towns. This keeps our warehouses, shipyards, and workshops safe. If we lose a port, it isn't a disaster. The ports we do hold are mostly to make acquiring resources a bit quicker. 

 

 

[Barbancourt]

8 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I'd like to point out something that admin mentioned. The Pirate nation can't be made "hardcore", because too many new players want to play as a Pyrate. Because of this, I wouldn't want the hardcore nations removed unless we create some sort of Outlaw nation instead.

So you're saying they wanna play "pirate" like it's a halloween costume with a plastic sword and fake eyepatch? 

 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

23 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I'd like to point out something that admin mentioned. The Pirate nation can't be made "hardcore", because too many new players want to play as a Pyrate. Because of this, I wouldn't want the hardcore nations removed unless we create some sort of Outlaw nation instead. 

Remove the hardcore nations. Three from the start was too many for a small to medium population to actually make any of the three effective long term against well established and larger factions such as Sweden or Great Britain. They have been working well short term, but Russia is a good example of the long term results as explained by Christendom, dare I say. When trying to build a nation under these "impossible" settings it does wear down an individual overtime if they continue to play like a major nation with only a decent player count. New players join Pirates to be "Pirates." Let them play like they are Pirates and not a bunch of nationals. It would not be like they would have warning to begin with as well stating "impossible difficulty" when they select the nation for the first time. Also the Pirate clans can spread out creating their own pockets or hubs you could call it of ports if they want to collect resources faster. They all can start at various free towns as well. The Pirate faction should live up to their name. Not be cuddled up like a bunch of national carebears. Basically right now they are just a bunch of guys that want the title of Pirate but do not want to play like an actual Pirate. 

 

Currently after the merger, I have rarely seen pirates that are not actually playing like pirates rather than the national tendencies that we saw in Global. Under my suggestion Pirates would still be able to build ships, conquer ports, trade, PvE, and PvP. However instead of having Mortimer Town as a safe port, Pirates would be using a Free Town of their choice at the start and can build from there. Spreading the "terror" pirates could cause as a raiding force compared to building a giant blob of ports in one part of the map. 

Quote

I think one of the keys to our success in Prussia is our approach to holding ports and where we base ourselves. Right now most every Prussian clan is mostly based out of free towns. This keeps our warehouses, shipyards, and workshops safe. If we lose a port, it isn't a disaster. The ports we do hold are mostly to make acquiring resources a bit quicker. 

Acting more like Pirates than an actual nation.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Davos Seasworth

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

So you're saying they wanna play "pirate" like it's a halloween costume with a plastic sword and fake eyepatch? 

 

Pretty much. I played as Pirate for a few months, but it was quickly evident that very very few had the true Privateer mentality. The vast majority wanted "National Unity", which sounds like an oxymoron for pirates.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

Remove the hardcore nations. Three from the start was too many for a small to medium population to actually make any of the three effective long term against well established and larger factions such as Sweden or Great Britain. They have been working well short term, but Russia is a good example of the long term results as explained by Christendom, dare I say. When trying to build a nation under these "impossible" settings it does wear down an individual overtime if they continue to play like a major nation with only a decent player count. New players join Pirates to be "Pirates." Let them play like they are Pirates and not a bunch of nationals. It would not be like they would have warning to begin with as well stating "impossible difficulty" when they select the nation for the first time. Also the Pirate clans can spread out creating their own pockets or hubs you could call it of ports if they want to collect resources faster. They all can start at various free towns as well. The Pirate faction should live up to their name. Not be cuddled up like a bunch of national carebears. Basically right now they are just a bunch of guys that want the title of Pirate but do not want to play like an actual Pirate. 

 

Currently after the merger, I have rarely seen pirates that are not actually playing like pirates rather than the national tendencies that we saw in Global. Under my suggestion Pirates would still be able to build ships, conquer ports, trade, PvE, and PvP. However instead of having Mortimer Town as a safe port, Pirates would be using a Free Town of their choice at the start and can build from there. Spreading the "terror" pirates could cause as a raiding force compared to building a giant blob of ports in one part of the map. 

Acting more like Pirates than an actual nation.

I agree that Prussia is currently the true "Pirate" nation in game right now.

The problem is that the Pirate nation wants to be a nation. They do want to play as nationals, but they still want the black flag. Admin has already told us this won't be changed, because it would be detrimental to sales. 

I would say give us a Outlaw nation. Let us kill each other, but don't let new players join, until they are a certain rank. It will give the "hardcore" players a place to go, and nobody will expect it to be a normal nation. 

Otherwise I would say don't take Prussia from me! I have no interest whatsoever in playing for a normal nation. I've been in GB and the Pirates, and I don't want to go back.

[Rhodry Heidenrich]

26 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I'd like to point out something that admin mentioned. The Pirate nation can't be made "hardcore", because too many new players want to play as a Pyrate. 

A lame excuse if I've ever seen one (if that's what they actually said). 

The Pirate faction should have been --from the start-- what Prussia/Russia/Poland are, and those same nations should have never been put into the game. But it's a moot point, really.

 

 

[Norfolk nChance]

@Davos Seasworth

 

Interesting review fella and some good points made. NA-OW will always have a two-faction attraction GB and Pirates. GB - easy Pirates hard gameplay and the rest fit in somewhere in between.  In all honesty I can’t see this naturally ever changing.

Question

In [PvP EU] how long as the Swedes had a real dominant place? Other than GB who else in size over the past two years ebb and flow reached top two or three? How long do they remain dominant before failing? [PvP Global] Care Bear alliance crushed the life out of the server remaining too long in place.

 

Think back when...

If you can remember back to when the PPR nations came into being. At the time @admin was caught out in a one foot forward two steps back move allowing PC/Clan Port Ownership but stopped at Civil War. I for one protested heavily for a limited Civil War Mechanic and the Nation status take a less important role in the PCs affairs. Opening up the Sandbox from its Lite status.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22066-preliminary-discussion-of-the-changes-to-conquest-clan-wars-are-coming/

This is Dev News by @admin in August last year. The PPR seems like it was a diversion away from the “War Corporations” idea and just dilute your way out of the problem.  Why wasn’t Portugal added was probably more to do with the Russian player base than anything else.

PPR is here to stay...

If my thinking is right also Portugal and others will come, helps sales with localization familiarity. This with a 5,000-player base isn’t a problem, right? The PPR will remain as is despite all three becoming impossible to work without base hubs. This dilution effect squashes the Civil War argument through not enough clans jostling for top dog in anyone Nation...

 

Even so, Civil War answers a lot of problems...

The Sandbox needs opening a little more with a “Limited Civil War” Mechanic. This needs time restrictions and a cooling off period. I’ve wrote about this a few times so try not to repeat myself. At this point I diverge from the original Dev’s plan with them wanting “friends” of other Nations to help out in attack or defense.

For me it would be the sole role of a hired Pirate Clan. Its Unique feature, and controlled by the same time limit mechanic restrictions. Only Pirates can be hired to help defend or attack on your behalf. Gives individual pirate clans a real input into the overall politics of the game. This instead of forcing them into a Nation status.

If the opposing clan hires another pirate clan to help them by default the two PIRATE factions are at war until the time period expires.

 

In Summary

 Sorry for the length, but in my opinion the individual Nations importance needs devaluing while the individual PC or Clan needs empowering...

Great thread Davos... 

 

Norfolk

 

 

[Barbancourt]

4 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

 

 

For me it would be the sole role of a hired Pirate Clan. Its Unique feature, and controlled by the same time limit mechanic restrictions. Only Pirates can be hired to help defend or attack on your behalf. Gives individual pirate clans a real input into the overall politics of the game. This instead of forcing them into a Nation status.

If the opposing clan hires another pirate clan to help them by default the two PIRATE factions are at war until the time period expires.

 

I guess this is some sort of pirate fantasy senario, but I have absolutely no interest in any mechanic that involves having to hire fecking "pirates" to do things. 

 

[Norfolk nChance]

My fantasies are way too dark for this well bread community’s eyes. The Pirate Faction needs a Unique feature that no other Nation has or can do. Unique ships and so on is all well and good but the idea put forward actually integrates them into the Nation Politics without actually being a Nation...

Was just a thought in between thinking about my dark fantasies...

 

[Barbancourt]

20 minutes ago, rediii said:

Poland - realy silent. Maybe even too silent I dont know much about the polish situation tbh

 

Hauling mountains of crap around and trying to decide on a new direction

[Barbancourt]

Dariena is a dangerous bottleneck, and all the fun is in the center of the map. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Barbancourt (rownd)

[TBD]

More nations is a definite selling point, once localization is complete.

The outlaw was proposed time and time again, Black Flag pirate nation vs Red Flag outlaws, it was never tested. They would make a killing just on custom clan flags and paints via dlc.

Civil war would be hard to implement, green on green would get abused. Any unique mechanic in this game always gets abused for some reason, so I understand why devs are weary of it. 

 

There are many good ideas on how to improve the game experience, but the elephant in the room is lack of content which leads to very low player base (excluding alts).

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, rediii said:

Prussia - Here and then grabs a port. I wouldnt call prussia a successfull nation though. They dont have a craftingplace and for new players its plain cancer to play with the ports prussia has atm

Ah, but that's part of the plan. We own zero "safe" ports on purpose. We don't want players that aren't interested in PvP, and the best way to keep the PvE crowd out is to put all your ports in busy areas

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

How do you guys build ships?

Altaccounts?

Prussia is the only nation without a "easy" eco in NA

 

Its not about busy areas I fully understand that one.

Most shipyards are in free ports. Goes against the grain of what most people would do, but it works pretty well. It's true we don't have a large crafting operation, but we have enough that ships are easily replaced. Using smuggler and taking a advantage of FFA ports makes obtaining basic resources easy. We mostly use teak for our ships, and the Pirates are 0/4 attacking us at blondel so far, so our supply is safe for now

[Sven Silberbart]

- Pirates shouldn't act as nation. (Let them sail around and make trouble. Thats there job. Not be part of the RvR)

- Let RvR a fully clan based thing and implement clan alliances (no need for nation flags anymore)

[Sir Texas Sir]

I actually thought this would be a way for them to test pirate mechanics but nothing came of it.  They need to make pirates like the three even make every port they capture open for all.  Remove the three and keep to actual nations that was in this region during this time.  Stop trying to please every nation out there of players and keep to a core.  There was a reasonPOTBS hade three nations and pirates.   Though I think 4-5 is better than 3  for a better mix.  

[Sven Silberbart]

NO!

If some choose to play Jack Sparrow, he should play as a pirate. Where is the problem? The players have to understand that pirates are pirates, thats all.

If they dont want to, then there are much nations to join

Edited February 16, 2018 by Sven Silberbart

[Vizzini]

What would be the point in having fewer nations ... forcing people to side with players they don't like or want anything to do with ?

 

Clan based would have been the way to go but too many hysterical historicals started throwing tantrums. If we went clan based then it would be extremely similar to having a far greater number of nations. Why force people into 2 teams , you can't have clan based inside a nation without the toxicity levels rising to global level. Look what happens to every possbile green on green

For a nation with no safe zone and no true historical basis , we had an awful lot of players chose Russia and I suspect many of the others in Poland or Prussia and the other nations are happiest under their own flag. Why force them into a nation they don't want to play in

I do think that every nation in the game as it is, needs a capital, they could have no safe zone to make it harder if needed

 

If every clan could fight another clan and could be their own nation if they wanted... rather than shoe-horning players into national agreements they want no part of

 

i feel certain there are changes coming to Pirates , but I am also hopeful the devs learned their lesson from the last time

 

Clan based / no nations  , speak the language you want and invite who you want , play how you want

[Percival Merewether]

I'd hate the idea of nations disappearing, but I see no reason why clans cannot fight eachother inside the nation - let non-clan players be safe while letting clans declare wars against eachother. That way clans can fight for influence in their own nation and increase the influence of their entire nation by attacking other nations.

When a british player from clan A attacks a british player from clan B, then give the clan A guy the pirate flag in the battle instance (Same as smugglers flag). 

The reason I'd hate for nations to go away completely is that they provide a safe environment for non-claners and I'd rather not see anyone sailing under the banner of a rats anus:

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Many times community has asked Pirates to be pirates, create special Pirate like nation and features.  I think more than a year maybe 2 years?  It was asked again and again and then devs decided to go with 3 new nations, which are there to support our playrbase from specific countries.  Community was like wtf you guys are doing?!

We have plenty of Russian players so they want to give them a change to sail under their own flag.  Don't really know why Ultimate General does not have Russia as an option already.