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Patch 16: Control, Mast and Ship strengths rebalance.

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27 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

You nerfed hull thickness too much.  Sure, mast thickness as well.

Angling hull means next to nothing if hull thickness is very low.  Probably Cartagena mod is and has been breaking hull thickness balance.  Nerf the mod and buff hull thickness.

Small ships have lost so much hull and masts that those are less competitive vs bigger ships.  Big ships should be better but something left for smaller ships as well.  Else we may end up to a situation where everyone is simply sailing a SOL.

Also Dear @admin, can you explain why PvP focused game needs gear advantage veteran players?

Counter Strike is a very popular PvP oriented game.  Do you think CS would be that popular if some players would have better gear than others or more money to spend?

Thickness is nice atm

Masts ... yea hard topic to balance.

There is no advantage. pvp players buy their shit from pve players.

Also btw in CS people have different levels on money depending how they use it and how they perform as far as I know.

Also CS is not a mmo dude

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2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Thickness is nice atm

Masts ... yea hard topic to balance.

There is no advantage. pvp players buy their shit from pve players.

Also btw in CS people have different levels on money depending how they use it and how they perform as far as I know.

Also CS is not a mmo dude

I assume you are not using Cartagena on any of your ships?

We can simply disagree here then.  Angling should mean a more.

In CS they have exactly the same amount of money when they start?  If they play well, they get more money and have a better change to win the match, right?  Still, everyone has the same amount of money to start with.

CS is not an mmo but I am pretty sure you can find an PvP mmo that has the same.

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22 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

I assume you are not using Cartagena on any of your ships?

We can simply disagree here then.  Angling should mean a more.

In CS they have exactly the same amount of money when they start?  If they play well, they get more money and have a better change to win the match, right?  Still, everyone has the same amount of money to start with.

CS is not an mmo but I am pretty sure you can find an PvP mmo that has the same.

I had 0 gold at the start aswell, did good and now I have more.

 

The guys that dont sail out use every excuse possible. Giving them everything wouldnt end in them sailing out they would just do pvd like they do now.

Cartagena is still strong but its not a deciding factor in small pvp. its what you do with yohr ship and nothing else.

Just look at rubli vs rus yesterday. RUS even had way more ships, way more HP and Crew and upgrades etc. and still lost vs 7 guys

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1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Angling hull means next to nothing if hull thickness is very low. 

Angling means nothing if ship is made of fir : P 

My T/T trinc was bouncing shots (angled) from an ingermanland last night.

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I do not, and will never understand why some players claim that upgrades give PvPers and veterans an unfair advantage....

I only PvP and I frequently fight without or with very basic upgrades for the simple reason that we lose more ships.. It's the PVEers who have the upgrades and sell them at insane prices to PvPers - yet it's the PVEers complaining that PvP players have an unfair advantage.

EDIT: And yes, angling still works - Anything above T/T is fine, but I would recommend a Navy Structure or Caulking on T/T frigates when fighting 24lbs+

Edited by NicklasK

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13 minutes ago, NicklasK said:

I do not, and will never understand why some players claim that upgrades give PvPers and veterans an unfair advantage....

I only PvP and I frequently fight without or with very basic upgrades for the simple reason that we lose more ships.. It's the PVEers who have the upgrades and sell them at insane prices to PvPers - yet it's the PVEers complaining that PvP players have an unfair advantage.

EDIT: And yes, angling still works - Anything above T/T is fine, but I would recommend a Navy Structure or Caulking on T/T frigates when fighting 24lbs+

Heh, in one sentence you say mods don't matter and then advocate for two of the most expensive mods for a PvE'er to get for general use?

The mod system is fine, though I'd like to test 15-20% caps on base stats. But all mods and skill books should be craftable or skill-tree based... not a product of winner-keep-winning or RNGesus mechanics.

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1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Heh, in one sentence you say mods don't matter and then advocate for two of the most expensive mods for a PvE'er to get for general use?

I said that you'd need them if you insist on bouncing 24lb balls in a TT ship - There are alternatives... you could simply make a TW ship. Don't take a frigate to a SotL fight and expect to win without mods.... in a Trinc vs Trinc fight the caulking/structure mods matters little.

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6 hours ago, rediii said:

I had 0 gold at the start aswell, did good and now I have more.

 

Cartagena is still strong but its not a deciding factor in small pvp. its what you do with yohr ship and nothing else.

Just look at rubli vs rus yesterday. RUS even had way more ships, way more HP and Crew and upgrades etc. and still lost vs 7 guys

So are you using Cartagena still?

After wipe everyone was on the same level.  None had anything.  Today this is not the case anymore.

Did not see the RUS vs Rubli fight.

If gear does not matter, I suppose you could then support me on my cause?  Ask devs to balance gear so that people like me who hate gear warriors would be happier?  I may not be the only one.

 

6 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

Angling means nothing if ship is made of fir : P 

My T/T trinc was bouncing shots (angled) from an ingermanland last night.

Thickness upgrades?

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1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If gear does not matter, I suppose you could then support me on my cause?  Ask devs to balance gear so that people like me who hate gear warriors would be happier?  I may not be the only one.

So why would gear need to be balanced if it does not matter?

I don't believe gear will decide the outcome of a fight. I believe gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style and would be sad if that option would be taken away.

@admin I played around a bit with elite spanish rig refits today and wile i like what it does, i think it should be reduced to +20% & -20% instead of the current 30%. My 12kt teak/wo bellona goes 14,4kt in batte, and yard power and ship acceleration feels really powerful. When sailing close hauled even a small change in wind can put you in irons (even when you're still only 30 degrees to the wind) and you will need to sail backwards to get out. I feel that is a good trade off, but even backwards sailing is increased by the huge yard power. So in all i like that the effect is really noticable, but i feel the elite is a little too much.

PS Can you comment on this suggestion?

On 2/10/2018 at 10:00 PM, Knobby said:
On 2/10/2018 at 8:58 PM, admin said:

they cant work in OW and will never work there. Physics does not and will not exist in open world and sailing is based on physics

But couldn't you approximate it? Api has speed modifiers for angles to the wind to simulate sailing profile in OW, right?

So currently you have speed mods that influence base speed that then is modified by the api wind angle modifiers to give the current speed at ow at a certain angle to the wind. What if these studding and staysails and rig refits modify not the base speed but the api wind angle modifiers and thus change the OW sailing profile?

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Knobby said:

 

I don't believe gear will decide the outcome of a fight. I believe gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style and would be sad if that option would be taken away.

You don't have to rely on belief, you can go out and test this. We've done this many, many times.

Edit:

You don't get any dissonance from this?

"gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style"

"My 12kt teak/wo bellona goes 14,4kt in batte"

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24 minutes ago, Knobby said:

...

I don't believe gear will decide the outcome of a fight. I believe gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style and would be sad if that option would be taken away.

...

When I compare @Hethwill (shop ships with crap mods) vs me (custom build ships with expensive mods and books) I would say custom + expensive mods win.  I am able to force fights when he has no chance of catching.  So first of all I would say gear decides what you fight. 2nd I can disenage whenever i want Heth chances are high that he sinks. I can rebuild my ship in fights while he just gets back a little bit of hp.

Whenever I hear about shop ships i think about throw away ships.

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19 minutes ago, z4ys said:

When I compare @Hethwill (shop ships with crap mods) vs me (custom build ships with expensive mods and books) I would say custom + expensive mods win.  I am able to force fights when he has no chance of catching.  So first of all I would say gear decides what you fight. 2nd I can disenage whenever i want Heth chances are high that he sinks. I can rebuild my ship in fights while he just gets back a little bit of hp.

Whenever I hear about shop ships i think about throw away ships.

Ok, so what lesson we have from this? Gears are badbad? Shop ships are for loosers (no offence @Hethwill, i didn’t mean you)? Should be better an upgrade but not so much, look at the end of Russia, according to what i read in the “End of a Nation” thread? Or simply we should use commen sense? 

 

Edited by blubasso

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@z4ys is right

Although a shop ship is no excuse to not sail out with friends and get into a fight and learn.

 

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10 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

None

There is physics simulation in this game.  You don't make your thin hull to do magics if you dont have the cm.

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9 hours ago, Knobby said:

So why would gear need to be balanced if it does not matter?

I don't believe gear will decide the outcome of a fight. I believe gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style and would be sad if that option would be taken away.

Read again what I said.

Yes it does.

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9 hours ago, jodgi said:

You don't have to rely on belief, you can go out and test this. We've done this many, many times.

Edit:

You don't get any dissonance from this?

"gear is a way to tune a ship/setup to a play style"

"My 12kt teak/wo bellona goes 14,4kt in batte"

You didn't read that I needed to sail backwards to get out of 'irons' while I was still at 30 degrees? This particular mod has a penalty as large as it's bonus, and in that same post I was arguing for that bonus to be reduced.

I've also long been asking for stacking penalties for bonuses to the same stat, as well as arguing against hiding mods/skills/etc behind RNG PVE grind and other kind of luck/grind based distribution methods.

However I do like the options mods and skills give me in tuning my ship to a play style. I feel it is also is in keeping with impression of large amounts individuality in of age of sail ships and their captains that I get from reading O'Brian and Forrester et al.

 

So to be clear, tuning mods is fine, especially by finally introducing stacking penalties. Making mods available to most players, also fine. Removing mods all together, please don't!

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After testing for few days now i find that the mast thickness nerf was a mistake . now we see lineships ships shooting at top masts form 1 mile + away and after few broadside taking them down just as before .. only now on longer distances

like others stated the increase in HP is meaningless coz now with lower thickness more guns can penetrate the masts thus the damage per broadside is much higher .. sometimes twice as high as before

shooting at masts from such a long range and doing any damage is unrealistic . besides the fact that the masts were really thick historically the fact that they are round and have a very smooth surface means that every shot that is not aimed directly at the center of the mast will bounce off .. tangent shots can't do any damage but in the game they do

so pls increase the thickness back to 120+ to simulate real world

i don't think any ship would waste ordinance taking this long distance shots and hoping for 1 in a thousand chance to hit the mast dead center . chain is the a much easier way of disabling a ship .. ofc in real life it would cut off all the ropes and rigging parts and that's why the ship would be disabled not coz it got a few holes in it's sails but you are already working on it so it's ok

demasting must be something you prepare to do in advance . like loading double charge and not something you can always do without any side effects

currently people say "ah he's angled away so my regular ball won't penetrate the hull .. so why not just shoot masts ? got nothing to loose .. i will reload before he turns" whereas before if you were serious about demasting you had to load double charge in advance .. mast shots shouldn't be target of opportunity this dumbs it down too much and makes it un-tactical (is that a word?) coz there is no drawback to shooting at masts now

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3 minutes ago, John Sheppard said:

After testing for few days now i find that the mast thickness nerf was a mistake . now we see lineships ships shooting at top masts form 1 mile + away and after few broadside taking them down just as before .. only now on longer distances

like others stated the increase in HP is meaningless coz now with lower thickness more guns can penetrate the masts thus the damage per broadside is much higher .. sometimes twice as high as before

shooting at masts from such a long range and doing any damage is unrealistic . besides the fact that the masts were really thick historically the fact that they are round and have a very smooth surface means that every shot that is not aimed directly at the center of the mast will bounce off .. tangent shots can't do any damage but in the game they do

so pls increase the thickness back to 120+ to simulate real world

i don't think any ship would waste ordinance taking this long distance shots and hoping for 1 in a thousand chance to hit the mast dead center . chain is the a much easier way of disabling a ship .. ofc in real life it would cut off all the ropes and rigging parts and that's why the ship would be disabled not coz it got a few holes in it's sails but you are already working on it so it's ok

demasting must be something you prepare to do in advance . like loading double charge and not something you can always do without any side effects

currently people say "ah he's angled away so my regular ball won't penetrate the hull .. so why not just shoot masts ? got nothing to loose .. i will reload before he turns" whereas before if you were serious about demasting you had to load double charge in advance .. mast shots shouldn't be target of opportunity this dumbs it down too much and makes it un-tactical (is that a word?) coz there is no drawback to shooting at masts now

I disagree. I snipped topmasts before with 1 broadside per topmast, now I dont.

I would keep testing for a while.

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4 minutes ago, rediii said:

I disagree. I snipped topmasts before with 1 broadside per topmast, now I dont.

I would keep testing for a while.

yes i know that i was doing that also specially oceans were prone to this more than others but .. all i'm saying is that there was actually a maximum distance where your shots wouldn't penetrate anymore .. now there isn't :) and for top masts ok .. but there's no way you could take off the middle section off a lineship close to or at the limit of your range certainly not with a 24pd armed ship from 1000m away . now it's only a matter of putting enough shots in

Edited by John Sheppard

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17 minutes ago, John Sheppard said:

yes i know that i was doing that also specially oceans were prone to this more than others but .. all i'm saying is that there was actually a maximum distance where your shots wouldn't penetrate anymore .. now there isn't :) and for top masts ok .. but there's no way you could take off the middle section off a lineship close to or at the limit of your range certainly not with a 24pd armed ship from 1000m away . now it's only a matter of putting enough shots in

You made the math? I have no time atm maybe youncould do it.

center mast is 75% thickness of bottommast.

1000m pen of 24 longs is how much?

Bellonas bottommastthickness is...?

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no not really too lazy for that

but bellona's mast is 102 that means middle section is 76cm and 24lb penetration at 750m is 75cm .. pretty close just need to be a few meters closer :) or 32pd have 85 @ 750 and 71 @ 1000

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Its strange the developers decided to make demasting easier when it was not a problem before. I always felt that mast thickness was one of the few things in the game that was perfectly tuned, it makes no sense to me why they lowered it. 

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