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SKurj

EVE... pvp vs pve

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Its been a long time since I played EVE but one thing from over there that i remember is that you don't take your best gear into PVP.  Players would have billions tied up in rare mods that made their pve farming easier, but when it came to pvp, that stuff was put away and the pvp fit would come out,  alot cheaper, and easily replaced etc.

How could we bring that to NA?  Right now the best gear, combined with a little skill makes you OP, especially when combined with the best books...  

How can we make it so you put away that op stuff that cost a fortune, or took months of grinding, and bring back cheap ships, pvp fits easily and cheaply replaced?

These days many players believe, right or wrong, you need to spend millions in gold or grind to compete, thats why pvp is hard to find.  The old days of 5 dura or whatever made people care less about their losses, nowadays your 4th rate costs a mill, your perms another mil, (or 10 times that depending on how you roll...) 

Right or wrong perception is everything, if the safezone full of players believe they need a billion in mods and books to join the fight against the pvp leet, they ain't coming out any time soon.  Take away that safezone and they will spend their game time elsewhere.

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That is actually a great point. The issue is that generating those mods is a major drive for the RVR part of the game. Look at the importance of places like Cartagena de indias for instance. 

It's all quite complicated. But I do get your point about expensive ships/upgrades.

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Oooh...

Would this do it...

In battle there is a chance your captain would be seriously wounded and any knowledge equipped could be lost due to a "knock on the head"  :)

That might make people reluctant to fit their 5 rings for a pvp fight ..

 

Just tossing ideas around...

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That's kind of a stretch. Why not just do away with "ship knowledge" all together and make all mods either permanent refits (ideally crafted in by crafter skill trees) or officers that can be lost when the ship is captured or sunk? Anything too OP and rare you wouldn't dare run on a PvP/RvR ship...

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55 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 Anything too OP and rare you wouldn't dare run on a PvP/RvR ship...

Thats my point...

It limits the uber mods usage in PVP, and at the same time reduces the cost of doing pvp...

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25 minutes ago, SKurj said:

Thats my point...

It limits the uber mods usage in PVP, and at the same time reduces the cost of doing pvp...

It limits it to the elite and ultra wealthy. It's a horrible idea. Just git gud

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so I would say you're both right and wrong and this is not to say that I don't see your point, I agree with you, but i'm not sure how you would manage it with current economics as well as  a battle system. You have 3 things that are different in Eve then in NA that contribute to WHY eve ships in pvp tend to be "less expensive."

1. No limit to how many players can be in the "Grid" (NA battle) so you're not limited to 25v25, but any number of ships vs anything

2. the "fighting" mechanics are different where to a degree a player can click on an ally and just set "be within 2,000m. Then you wait for your fleet commander to call a target, where you then lock and press a button to activate your guns or offensive weaponry

3. Depending on the Ship and Ship class, also depends on what is normally "fitted." to give an NA example - on a 5th rate you probably wouldn't but the most expensive mods, but on a Port Battle 1st Rate, you want that sucker to be pimped out, as because it is also more expensive and worth using the better tools. We can go further into each ship class and it has variants called, Tech 1, Tech 2, and Faction (Some Tech 3 but that's not needed here).

some pictures for reference of ships I own for PvP in Eve Online, I've tried in the past to find a similarity to ship class in eve and ship rate in NA and I will try to show it:

1. T1 Cruiser - Omen -

https://imgur.com/rFEfoUs

 

So here we have a Basic T1 Cruiser - best comparison I can give is in Naval Action this would be a 5th rate. This Fit comes with a couple things in mind.
1. Cheap (Cost effective)
2. Long Range, Armor Tank, Fast (Microwarpdrive)

In your suggestion, this Fit is a PvP fit meant to be flown with friends, have logistics and other support. The Cost -- 35.2 million "Isk."

Lets look at a PvP Fitted Titan (which comparison would be a 1st Rate)

T1 Titan - Ragnarok -

https://imgur.com/kxOU1gH

Here we have a PvP Fitted Titan - This fit has what they call "Blue" and "Faction (Green)" loot. these modules can be a little to a hello kittyton more expensive than the T2 mods we have on the Cruiser. due to that, the Price of this Fitted Rag is somewhere between 60-70 billion "Isk." This fit comes with these in mind.
1. Max Shield Tank
2. Capital Weaponry to fight other Capitals, Mid-Range, Slow

When it comes to the Hull cost - an Omen is 9 mill, a Ragnarok is roughly 55-60 billion depending where you buy it.

So in terms of PvP, yes the fits and ships are comparable to a degree. but I don't think you'd ever fit the Omen with Faction or Blue loot due to how expensive they are compared to the ship hull.

 

Tl;Dr --- Eve ships are Fitted for PvP usually based on how expensive the "Hull" of the ship is, the more expensive the Hull of the ship, usually the better and more expensive the modules are on the ship.

difference is that Eve Online has a flourishing economy that makes this work, where in Naval Action our economy is so broken that we would need to completely change how everything is made to get to the level that Eve has.

Edited by Teutonic
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23 minutes ago, Teutonic said:


difference is that Eve Online has a flourishing economy that makes this work, where in Naval Action our economy is so broken that we would need to completely change how everything is made to get to the level that Eve has.

Exactly....

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2 hours ago, Flinch said:

It limits it to the elite and ultra wealthy. It's a horrible idea. Just git gud

Nothing wrong with the [ELITE] dear boy.

If you like your porn without the storyline go to the bottom of my post...

 

Having played EvE Online for many years, a couple doing NA-OW and what seems like years doing NA-Legend I can sort of see where @SKurj is coming from. In Relation to EvE @Teutonic I agree with here the HULL determining how expensive the modules fitted.

 

EvE Online looking back (sorry for length, reminiscing) ...

Having built Capital Ships, the “Nyx” took months of planning and work. Using others and with the deep rich economy needed to complete it. It was the peak of my play with EvE Online. It was hard work but not really grind there’s a difference.

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Capital_Ships_101

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Nyx

 

This made “Wood Trim’s” Patch 9.96 seem like a walk in the park. The NA-Legends “Stock Gun Grind” is utter rubbish in comparison (see Guides “Norfolk nLegend does Grinder...!”). Losing a Nyx is gut wrenching as well you might guess.  However, blowing up my very first L’Ocean did bring a tear to the eye. Just ask my clan... @flipper687  @drufuskent?

The expensive mods fit easier here in Capital Ships but also in role specific ships “Navy Cruisers”. My “Viator” blockade runner was fitted with very expensive mods plus usually with my clone rigged out as well. This was a favorite.

In NW-OW I have specific decked out ships with expensive mods purpose built for a single type of task usually. Not just a blinged out Connie which is asking to be ganked. This is how I treat “Uber mod usage”, my PvP ships again specific to what I’m hunting, tracking or defending. I get caught out tis my fcuk up, same was in EvE...

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Viator

 

So, after a time watching my three-year-old daughter go to University and get married (EvE Online does this, it sinks years of your time) am now worth 100s of Billions of isk and looking for new challenges. The answer came here with this Corporation (Clan) [AGONY].

https://wiki.agony-unleashed.com/index.php/PVP-BASIC

 

Planned weekend take a very basic frigate and as a group go through Null-Sec ([PvP Caribbean]) raping and pillaging usually drunk or high or both. You’ll die, you will probably sink, you will also help take down much larger ships that would seem impossible to do otherwise.

With no bling (which one does become accustomed to having), going back to basics and relearning how to fight in different ways was a breath of fresh air. This can be the same in NA-OW where the mindset of perm upgrades, skill knowledge is a must have above learning how to sail the ship first and foremost, In my opinion. Imagine instead a gang of drunk BASIC Cerberus’s pillaging round a particular spot in the Caribbean causing chaos over a weekend...

 

Back from the future into the past...

 I still like the idea of skill knowledge, but not inter-changeable. Once learnt it adds to your character. Think about the “Clone Skill Knowledge” path in EvE. Mods like @Wraith suggests all permanent per ship. In NA-L the Officer attributes I like where you grow and improve him.

The Officer can be moved from ship to ship like your [XO] would in RL. Rather than a perk system. He improves like you and you work together.

The NA-OW has too much focus or emphasis on the mods taking away the beautiful ship models and combat system created by @admin and his team.

 

Norfolk nChance [ELITE]

 

 

Quick Porn...

NA-OW has too much focus or emphasis on the mods taking away the beautiful ship models created and combat systems. This having the unusual effect of sidelining the PvP content.

 

 

Edited by Norfolk nChance
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7 hours ago, Teutonic said:


difference is that Eve Online has a flourishing economy that makes this work, where in Naval Action our economy is so broken that we would need to completely change how everything is made to get to the level that Eve has.

If it was broken like you described you would not be able to do anything (trade, craft, supply)
you can make money by trading and can make a lot more money by trading in dangerous waters
you can make most money by smuggling goods to enemy capitals or out of them
you can supply players by repairs, guns, ships, materials
you can only craft higher level vessels
You broken economy statement is wrong. 

I dont like it does not mean broken. so please use proper terms here. say things as it is .. say you hate it.

+ NA players like you are very sensitive to the ability to play solo- we tried fully player driven economy, that required players to cooperate and travel and such.. majority of players became very upset when it happened as a result. Now we have player driven economy for half of the content, and npcs support it at some areas that need help (areas that players ignore for one or another reason).

+ eve economy is heavily supported by hidden npcs pretending to be players just the same way as naval action. So instead of European traders you see some guys selling stuff in large quantities at high prices in most centers. 

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If I wanted to grind stuff for months to PVE I would play eve. This is naval action and not eve. Stop comparing them. 

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11 hours ago, SKurj said:

Take away that safezone and they will spend their game time elsewhere.

Problem is that you are right if by elswhere you mean in another game

Anyway - in EVE - cost of the modules is the key point.

I can take a marauder into a PVP fight (an active tank/boosted golem can perform actually very well), but I will never fit deadspace/officer mods into that ship. A single officer module can costs twice the ship and a ship can fit 20 modules.

Empire high sec is the (almost) safe zone of EVE and there you find the pimped monster ships.

The same happens in NA

 

Edited by victor

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12 hours ago, SKurj said:

Take away that safezone and they will spend their game time elsewhere

Must be a huge coincidence that for the first time in na history we have had a stable 700 people online every day after safe zone patch. 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

If it was broken like you described you would not be able to do anything (trade, craft, supply)
you can make money by trading and can make a lot more money by trading in dangerous waters
you can make most money by smuggling goods to enemy capitals or out of them
you can supply players by repairs, guns, ships, materials
you can only craft higher level vessels
You broken economy statement is wrong. 

I dont like it does not mean broken. so please use proper terms here. say things as it is .. say you hate it.

+ NA players like you are very sensitive to the ability to play solo- we tried fully player driven economy, that required players to cooperate and travel and such.. majority of players became very upset when it happened as a result. Now we have player driven economy for half of the content, and npcs support it at some areas that need help (areas that players ignore for one or another reason).

+ eve economy is heavily supported by hidden npcs pretending to be players just the same way as naval action. So instead of European traders you see some guys selling stuff in large quantities at high prices in most centers. 

while I agree that your economy does work. you have some major inflation issues. Gold is almost useless as a result. you need to have more things server side that absorb money. such as crew or port costs.  There are simply to many ways to get gold which makes it so inflated. for example. if taxes, trading, port battles, bounty hunting, escort missions, fishing/whaling, ship building, ship insurance policies. were the only ways to get money you would have a much different economy. but the fact that anyone can go make 10 mil in less than 3 hours simply by doing missions in the safe zone makes gold useless.

you cant take the mission gold out because this creates a bigger problem. if you take it out you now your newbies have no way to get gold.... so perhaps some of the things need to be reconsidered on your economy. maybe missions only give enough money for people to buy npc ships via mission... but maybe they don't even need to do that since all ships are capturable. Making the economy more enjoyable in the game would go a long ways for content. listed above are several content options in the open world. I think the economy fails because it doesn't give us purpose for the things were are doing. we capture ports because we want them... not because we need them. we pvp because we want to not because we benefit from it. we grind ai because we have to in order to get upgrades.. not because its fun. A economy that worked BETTER would go a long ways for content.  the economy is like the UI  right now... functional.......... at best.......

Edited by King of Crowns
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8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Never hear of solar sails? 

*sips good cuban coffee aboard the yacht while hearing the slow gentle roll of the waves against the hull*

*seaguls laughing overhead*

 

Science Fiction sir... please. It is not about the GAME, is about the EXPERIENCE provided by the game.

Any rulebook can be used and adjusted to provide a credible experience if needed be.

Such as having a open world sim or a arena environments.

This is the Age of Sail, not some Sci Fi dreams of aliens.

 

* watches new 3 mast yacht with the new solar power sails make way into the dock *

 

They look horrible. Honest. 

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12 hours ago, SKurj said:

The old days of 5 dura or whatever made people care less about their losses, nowadays your 4th rate costs a mill, your perms another mil, (or 10 times that depending on how you roll...) 

As a pvper i do not notice any difference. People run and fight just as much. 

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4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

*sips good cuban coffee aboard the yacht while hearing the slow gentle roll of the waves against the hull*

*seaguls laughing overhead*

 

Science Fiction sir... please. It is not about the GAME, is about the EXPERIENCE provided by the game.

Any rulebook can be used and adjusted to provide a credible experience if needed be.

Such as having a open world sim or a arena environments.

 

* watches new 3 mast yacht with the new solar power sails make way into the dock *

 

They look horrible. Honest. 

Solar sails are not science fiction. Even deep space probes drift of course because of solar radiation. Do you mean something else? 

Edited by HachiRoku

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Loosen up. There's even solar sails across the sea as we speak.

Reckon the - want a game that relies of experience of the age of sail versus some science fiction thing - wasn't properly explained.

That's the clutch - if I wanted this I would play eve.

There's no comparison, one is not sci-fi.

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4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Loosen up. There's even solar sails across the sea as we speak.

Reckon the - want a game that relies of experience of the age of sail versus some science fiction thing - wasn't properly explained.

That's the clutch - if I wanted this I would play eve.

There's no comparison, one is not sci-fi.

Oh lol I thought you meant solar sail tech is Scifi. Space solar sails work differently than anything on earth. Photon sails is maybe a better description maybe. 

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23 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

but the fact that anyone can go make 10 mil in less than 3 hours simply by doing missions in the safe zone makes gold useless.

Even so, nothing is harder for me than to do that "simple" thing. Weird, innit? 

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19 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Even so, nothing is harder for me than to do that "simple" thing. Weird, innit? 

That's what the sandbox means. Get to the same results by different means.

Example, putting drops aside - crafting a ship piece by piece or getting a ship with pewpew marks. Both should be possible and equivalent in investment.

Back to drops - Drops in PvE -or-  available in Admiralty for pewpew marks ( against, balance supported by investment spent to achieve same results - if a X drop take 500 pve ships to drop, in average, it should cost a fair amount of marks, not only 10. )

 

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