HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) If you need a mod or 1 out of the 6 mast mods in the case of naval action to be competitive in pvp I would argue something is broken. People will complain about demasting being either impossible or to easy. If its possible it automatically becomes to easy! First of all I want to say that Kiritimati masts and Elite french rig are just a troll. Its a one sided fight if the person that is using them is a good dismaster. A one sided fight not competitive gaming. I sail an Elite British Rig refit teak teak trinco with copper plating and navy hull. I love that ship and don't want to take Brit rig off for shit mast mods. @Moscalb sails a Kiritimati teak fir trinco with poods. Now everyone knows if I were to 1v1 him how that fight would end. It is a 100% one sided fight. I could fire 100 shots of 18 charged into his masts and do nothing. He would fire 7 and it would be gg. So I will not duel him and he doesn't blame me We had Connie duel. I put mast mod on and beat him. Does that make me better? No because 1 mod made me win and by them time he knew I had the mod it was to late. I don't like that. I will never know who is better like this. I don't like to duel with no way to demast either. Any option MUST be available in battles! Most mast mods make dismasting impossible because they increase thickness so even with 1000 hits to bottom section will not dismast anything. This is a major issue because we cannot know if we are even penning masts and not penning a mast is an issue by itself. Currently it is 7 hits to bottom sections, 4 hits to mid sections and 2 hits to top sections with longs and 1 hit to tops with poods because someone thought that would be a great idea for some reason. The base HP of masts should be increased to 8 hits to bottom sections, 6 hits to mid sections and 4 hits to top sections and things would be a lot better. That doesn't sound like much but In practice that will work! I believe it is worth a try @admin because mast mods are just getting out of control and its trolling and not fun anymore. The thickness as it is, is really good at the moment and all mast mods should ONLY be HP increases and NOT thickness. Kiritimati masts are the strongest mod in game. If that mod gave you a 40% HP buff and NO thinkness buff you would still take 11 hits to bottom, 8 to mids, and 6 to tops! That might not sound like a lot but believe me it is ALOT and maybe still even a troll even if you're penning because there is a trick I will explain below to people that don't know! If you have a mod like Kiritimati and someone needs 11 hits to kill your bottom section you will rule the sea. If you pop you your repair after 10 hits , your mast hp come back and someone will need a total of 22 hits to kill 1 of your masts. What do you think you could do to him in this time? This is the trinck for people that don't know. If your mast needs 7 hits to be dismasted. If you count the hits, You should repair sails after 5 hits or 6 max. Even if you're at 99% sail. Your mast hp always goes to 100% after rig rep. If you loose mast and repair rig you never get the full mast back but repairing early can buy time and save your ass. Edited February 9, 2018 by HachiRoku 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Quote by the time he knew I had the mod it was to late. Just for emphasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, maturin said: Just for emphasis. This is totally off topic but I've always wondered what your in game name is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackjack Morgan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Masts are so hello kittyED UP right now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 7 hours ago, HachiRoku said: First of all I want to say that Kiritimati masts and Elite french rig are just a troll. Its a one sided fight if the person that is using them is a good dismaster. A one sided fight not competitive gaming. I sail an Elite British Rig refit teak teak trinco with copper plating and navy hull. I love that ship and don't want to take Brit rig off for shit mast mods. @Moscalb sails a Kiritimati teak fir trinco with poods. Now everyone knows if I were to 1v1 him how that fight would end. It is a 100% one sided fight. I could fire 100 shots of 18 charged into his masts and do nothing. He would fire 7 and it would be gg. So I will not duel him and he doesn't blame me We had Connie duel. I put mast mod on and beat him. Does that make me better? No because 1 mod made me win and by them time he knew I had the mod it was to late. I don't like that. I will never know who is better like this. I don't like to duel with no way to demast either. Any option MUST be available in battles! You are so in the right, Hachi! You know what's up and you lay it out to the point. I've attacked mods since a week or two after their release, I think many here simply think I sperg against mods out of old habit but what you describe here i why I do it. Apparently it is important to have mods so people have something to PVE for and to avoid the terrible concept of "cookie cutter ships". It's just extremely difficult to maintain competitive game balance with mods constantly throwing the equation off. I'd argue that at the current stage OW has moved away from unadulterated skill based play in favor of "gib content" and pve-grind-to-win ideals known from other sandbox games and MMORPGs. It's going to be hard to get back to NA's skill based roots as we've drifted away from Gods's light for quite some time now, I'm (almost) eternally and hopelessly optimistic and in spite of the current situation I still see the beauty of core NA-OW. OW is like the prettiest girl you've ever seen with far too much and badly applied make-up. I've done the trolling with kirimati and french rig too lately. I guess you could stretch the definition and call it "skill" to be able to abuse an anti-meta like that, but like you, Hachi, I think it reeks. Speed meta has over the course of two years been brought down to a tolerable level(?), so there probably is hope for masts vs hull vs sails vs crew vs speed balance too. As long as there are power gamers with copper, kiri, french, navy, 5 rings, carta and what have you they will be slightly above the balance the plebs have to deal with, from what I gather this is the joy of an equipment based sandbox <shrugs>. Legends will have pvp-on-demand with deliberate competitive balance. OW won't be pvp-on-demand but I see no point in denying OW true and pervasive skill based balance. Don't worry about tommi. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Speirs Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Had an interesting encounter the other day, alittle embarrassing to lads who were working on demasting this 1 Ingermanland vsing 8 frigates all targeting his sails/ masts and yet the Ingermanland didn't lose a single mast through the whole encounter while with every broadside the ingermanland had what seemed like perfect aimbot on each frigates masts at any distance and all it took was 1 broadside to demast 1 frigate at a time, it literally makes player wonder why they even bother with PvP at all when they experience these kind of things let alone grinding to unlock the mods to be competitive in PvP, something needs to change because this game has serious issues that need addressing to make the game more enjoyable and less exploitable/ mechanic or RnG based luck to give players a greater advantage! Plus i remember the days when i used to single shot and target mast manually to demast them back when skill was a thing in this game not what mod you had to give you advantages, we need mods just they need to be done right to begin with like most things in this game! Edited February 5, 2018 by Ronald Speirs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moscalb Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, Moscalb said: I'm really interested in hearing your opinion about this beyond the smiley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, jodgi said: I'm really interested in hearing your opinion about this beyond the smiley. ME too. I had a long chat with him about the hp and he agrees. I would like to hear a more in depth version about mods etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptiste Gallouédec Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 In fact i tend to quite like the mast balance right now, shooting masts is back to a few chance but decisive if succesfull, not an auto win as it was, not useless neither. It may be a problem only now that some ships can have more than 3 perma upgrades , giving them an edge over the others. But as non upgraded ones falls fast, you can tell fast enough if you are wasting your time or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moscalb Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) I do not think that the modules on the mast should not influence the outcome of the battle. When creating a ship you need to balance. Especially now. All are in equal conditions. I sacrifice a hp ship, thickness and speed, when I take this module. @HachiRoku chooses excellent mobility, maneuvering and side wall thickness. And his ship has only one drawback - the mast. I have a weak body and at the same time a slow ship. And I have + only on the mast. The choice of each. Why @HachiRoku does not put elite French, copper and british rig?) Because he wants to have a ship with good maneuverability, a thick side and with the same good speed. While not spending a slot on the mast. You want too much Hachi P.S . I apologize for the translator Google Edited February 5, 2018 by Moscalb 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Moscalb said: I do not think that the modules on the mast should not influence the outcome of the battle. When creating a ship you need to balance. Especially now. All are in equal conditions. I sacrifice a hp ship, thickness and speed, when I take this module. @HachiRoku chooses excellent mobility, maneuvering and side wall thickness. And his ship has only one drawback - the mast. I have a weak body and at the same time a slow ship. And I have + only on the mast. The choice of each. Why @HachiRoku does not put elite French, copper and british rig?) Because he wants to have a ship with good maneuverability, a thick side and with the same good speed. While not spending a slot on the mast. You want too much Hachi P.S . I apologize for the translator Google I get your point but there is one issue. My ship is 50% better than your ship. Faster, better turn and a bit more armor. If we 1v1 now how long until I loose all 3 masts? 3 min? 5 min max? It doesn't matter that I have a better ship. I don't mind bottom section demasting but it should be possible for all to demast otherwise it's decided before it starts. If mast mods give hp bonus only maybe if one plays smart, repairs at perfect time maybe they could kill mast too after 10 hits (40% hp buff mod) and survive a tiny bit longer. This way the mod is not a deciding factor. You remember the 3 connie 1v1s we had You won. I upgraded and I won. Then you upgraded penning mods and you won again... That is stupid 😂 Good mast snipers will always snipe masts but making it harder with hp buffs only will kill the meta for most. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moscalb Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, HachiRoku said: Я понимаю, но есть одна проблема. Мой корабль на 50% лучше, чем ваш корабль. Быстрее, лучше поворачивать и немного больше брони. Если мы теперь будем 1v1, как долго, пока я не потеряю все 3 мачты? 3 мин? 5 мин. Макс. Не имеет значения, что у меня лучший корабль. Я не возражаю против деструкции дна, но для всех это должно быть возможно, иначе оно будет принято до его начала. Если мачты дают бонус hp только, может быть, если один играет умный, ремонт в идеальное время, возможно, они могут убить мачту тоже после 10 ударов (40% hp buff mod) и выжить чуть-чуть дольше. Таким образом, мода не является решающим фактором. Ты помнишь, что мы выиграли 3-е в 1в1 . Я обновился, и я выиграл. Затем вы обновили моды пеннинга, и вы снова выиграли ... Это глупо 😂 Хорошие снайперы мачты всегда будут бекасными мачтами, но при этом усиление с помощью hp buffs только убьет мета для большинства. Do not misunderstand me. I for raising the HP mast I just defended kirimati ahahah. More than that, I know that tomorrow there will be an update that makes the masts stronger Edited February 5, 2018 by Moscalb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, Moscalb said: I just defended kirimati I know But this is what I say. Mods that increase thickness are bad for game 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moscalb Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, HachiRoku said: Я знаю, но это то, что я говорю. Моды, которые увеличивают толщину, плохо для игры but this does not agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Moscalb said: but this does not agree 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, HachiRoku said: You remember the 3 connie 1v1s we had You won. I upgraded and I won. Then you upgraded penning mods and you won again... That is stupid 😂 To compound the issue; The really good mast mods are somewhat rare and expensive and the same goes for the good pen mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, jodgi said: To compound the issue; The really good mast mods are somewhat rare and expensive and the same goes for the good pen mods. I dont know if you can stack that many pen mods for the masts mods there are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NethrosDefectus Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) I agree that it is stupid that your style of play and ship set up are dictated by a single game mechanic. The game need to encourage and embrace different styles otherwise battles just become like factory lines: Shoots masts, grape,board and repeat Edited February 5, 2018 by NethrosDefectus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr RideZ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) They should definitely increase mast hp. Not sure if that increase is even enough but would be a good start. Chain damage should be decreased as well. Balance so that #1 Rig damage dealer are chains, #2 are balls. When people use mainly chains to shoot rigging, we have balance. I tested couple mast rakes some time ago. I got 18 hits with 32 cannons and it can be that I actually fired only 26 cannons. There are probably others who can rake even better but I don't think this kind of rakes should be possible. Especially from a nub like me. Are simply stupid. They could check how big are mast and ball hitboxes. Or add something like - if (masthits > x) noMore(seconds); Edited February 5, 2018 by Cmdr RideZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) I am sorry to say , but not only masts are broken and yes mods dictate the pvp outcome. Once again new guys have no reason to go pvp . Edited February 5, 2018 by H2O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 There are cheap mast mods and knowledges that will save your mast. Only the best players will get your mast. But those guys will get you no matter the meta. The only time i lost a mast in hundreds of battles is when sailing a surprise. It happened once. I've been top masted less then 5% of battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackjack Morgan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Mods in general are completely out of control. The bonuses and ability to stack them have created a complete mess of balance. I've said the same thing forever now.....every time you add a new mod or wood type etc. it makes the ability to properly balance the game more complicated. We still have people who act like knocking down masts is difficult. I could literally train a NASA space chimp to shoot masts in this game....it's not difficult. If you cant hit masts then you really should never try playing any type of shooter for goodness sake. Sure some will be a better at it than others but to say its a difficult skill to master I will always disagree. If you don't want to give a significant boost to mast hp's then you might as well just give out more mast mods so it can be countered. This game already relies so heavily on gear compared to at any other point of its development it's absurd. Why we went down this path of making gear more important than player skills and tactics is beyond me.....but it sucks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Licinio Chiavari Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) On 5/2/2018 at 2:52 AM, HachiRoku said: If you need a mod or 1 out of the 6 mast mods in the case of naval action to be competitive in pvp I would argue something is broken. People will complain about demasting being either impossible or to easy. If its possible it automatically becomes to easy! First of all I want to say that Kiritimati masts and Elite french rig are just a troll. Its a one sided fight if the person that is using them is a good dismaster. A one sided fight not competitive gaming. I sail an Elite British Rig refit teak teak trinco with copper plating and navy hull. I love that ship and don't want to take Brit rig off for shit mast mods. @Moscalb sails a Kiritimati teak fir trinco with poods. Now everyone knows if I were to 1v1 him how that fight would end. It is a 100% one sided fight. I could fire 100 shots of 18 charged into his masts and do nothing. He would fire 7 and it would be gg. So I will not duel him and he doesn't blame me We had Connie duel. I put mast mod on and beat him. Does that make me better? No because 1 mod made me win and by them time he knew I had the mod it was to late. I don't like that. I will never know who is better like this. I don't like to duel with no way to demast either. Any option MUST be available in battles! Most mast mods make dismasting impossible because they increase thickness so even with 1000 hits to bottom section will not dismast anything. This is a major issue because we cannot know if we are even penning masts and not penning a mast is an issue by itself. Currently it is 7 hits to bottom sections, 4 hits to mid sections and 2 hits to top sections with longs and 1 hit to tops with poods because someone thought that would be a great idea for some reason. The base HP of masts should be increased to 8 hits to bottom sections, 6 hits to mid sections and 4 hits to top sections and things would be a lot better. That doesn't sound like much but In practice that will work! I believe it is worth a try @admin because mast mods are just getting out of control and its trolling and not fun anymore. The thickness as it is, is really good at the moment and all mast mods should ONLY be HP increases and NOT thickness. Kiritimati masts are the strongest mod in game. If that mod gave you a 40% HP buff and NO thinkness buff you would still take 11 hits to bottom, 8 to mids, and 6 to tops! That might not sound like a lot but believe me it is ALOT and maybe still even a troll even if you're penning because there is a trick I will explain below to people that don't know! If you have a mod like Kiritimati and someone needs 11 hits to kill your bottom section you will rule the sea. If you pop you your repair after 10 hits , your mast hp come back and someone will need a total of 22 hits to kill 1 of your masts. What do you think you could do to him in this time? This is the trinck for people that don't know. If your mast needs 7 hits to be dismasted. If you count the hits, You should repair sails after 5 hits or 6 max. Even if you're at 99% sail. Your mast hp always goes to 100% after rig rep. If you loose mast and repair rig you never get the full mast back but repairing early can buy time and save your ass. @TommyShelby DON'T OVERREACT! HachiRoku pointed again something already pointed. This time the issue is called by a very good "demaster". If even a skilled player point out the problem, aside people with a clue and less skilled... THIS MEANS THERE'S A PROBLEM. Yes, mast mods are a must if facing skilled players... not a single ship I used on "Coast Defense" on US coast sails without French Rig and Winged Out Ballast. Still this means I have to drop 1 perm and 1 book to hope to not lose masts at first couple broadsides. Moreover, missing super OP books (it requires a bulkload of farming) and great amounts of golds (for Copper for example), I will have to make super light ships to be able to catch on heavier and damn fast too ships. So if I'll be able to save (may be) my masts... I'll end losing my side armor. To this point is not a matter of skill... it's simply giving more and more edge to veterans over casuals/new players. How we think NA will be able to grow (or at least stay alive) if casuals/new players cant do PVP even outnumbering enemy? From my perspective, as stated elsewhere is a problem of balance and realism. 1) no way a rolling ship with 1800 guns will ever even think to "aim" (lol) to masts running at full speed at 100+ meters. 2) in majority of situation the really required precision (a couple feet out 100-200+ yards meaning something like a quarter of a single degree) was totally and simply out reality. 3) as someone likes to underline, 1800 ships lost masts... yes. Due to prolonged battles and usually after heavy rig damage (so stays and shrouds) and very often due in the end for a "trauma" (like a collision after shrouds damages - again). On this I can quote also Wikipedia (usually called to confirm own theories... so I use it too) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship_tactics << [omissis] The chance that a ship would be dismasted and stopped before reaching the enemy's line was small.[omissis] >> And Trafalgar battle only CONFIRMS this. Please remember that with light breeze British Fleet closed in to French/Spanish one letting them firing bow rakes all the time. I'd underline the well famed "LIGHT" breeze... so we can imagine ship "running" at 4-5 kts if ever so high. Another quote: << Nelson knew he had every chance of getting through the real danger zone of a depth of 600 to 700 yards in 12 to 15 minutes (due to the sluggish wind) without crippling damage. He knew that only perhaps two or three ships would be able to fire at him twice, or at most three times, during these critical minutes >> Does someone think that in this damn loved game... any ship could receive 2-3 bow rakes from 2-3 ships without losing at least a single masts if the shooter are good at demasting. And I say 2-3 rakes from 2-3 ships granted French/Spanish reloading. In this game in 10 minutes a ship fire even more than 10 times. We all know the reality in this game. Again people dares saying Victory got demasted. I have to point out AGAIN that the foretopsail of Victory, still preserved, HAD OVER 90 HOLES... and Victory lost her masts after a collision too. So again: nothing in NA about demasting has to do with reality. Nothing. And I'd repeat. I do agree that playability has to take precedence over realism (NA will not get a lot of players with tacking would require 10-15 minutes as in truth). BUT DEMASTING META IS NOT REAL NOR USEFUL TO MAKE GAME MORE ENJOYABLE. As stated in other topic... I consider buffing by 100% up to over 150% masts HP as bare minimum to make this game more balanced (and real). I still agree that making the new heavily buffed mast HP a function of sail damage too so if sails (and so stays and shrouds) are at 60%, Mast HP should be reduced of the same amount, could be even more advisable. Thanks for reading. Edited February 7, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said: HachiRoku pointed again something already pointed. This time the issue is called by a very good "demaster". If even a skilled player point out the problem, aside people with a clue and less skilled... THIS MEANS THERE'S A PROBLEM. Yes, mast mods are a must if facing skilled players... not a single ship I used on "Coast Defense" on US coast sails without French Rig and Winged Out Ballast. Still this means I have to drop 1 perm and 1 book to hope to not lose masts at first couple broadsides. Moreover, missing super OP books (it requires a bulkload of farming) and great amounts of golds (for Copper for example), I will have to make super light ships to be able to catch on heavier and damn fast too ships. So if I'll be able to save (may be) my masts... I'll end losing my side armor. To this point is not a matter of skill... it's simply giving more and more edge to veterans over casuals/new players. How we think NA will be able to grow (or at least stay alive) if casuals/new players cant do PVP even outnumbering enemy? From my perspective, as stated elsewhere is a problem of balance and realism. 1) no way a rolling ship with 1800 guns will ever even think to "aim" (lol) to masts running at full speed at 100+ meters. 2) in majority of situation the really required precision (a couple feet out 100-200+ yards meaning something like a quarter of a single degree) was totally and simply out reality. 3) as someone likes to underline, 1800 ships lost masts... yes. Due to prolonged battles and usually after heavy rig damage (so stays and shrouds) and very often due in the end for a "trauma" (like a collision after shrouds damages - again). On this I can quote also Wikipedia (usually called to confirm own theories... so I use it too) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship_tactics << [omissis] The chance that a ship would be dismasted and stopped before reaching the enemy's line was small.[omissis] >> And Trafalgar battle only CONFIRMS this. Please remember that with light breeze British Fleet closed in to French/Spanish one letting them firing bow rakes all the time. I'd underline the well famed "LIGHT" breeze... so we can imagine ship "running" at 4-5 kts if ever so high. Another quote: << Nelson knew he had every chance of getting through the real danger zone of a depth of 600 to 700 yards in 12 to 15 minutes (due to the sluggish wind) without crippling damage. He knew that only perhaps two or three ships would be able to fire at him twice, or at most three times, during these critical minutes >> Does someone think that in this damn loved game... any ship could receive 2-3 bow rakes from 2-3 ships without losing at least a single masts if the shooter are good at demasting. And I say 2-3 rakes from 2-3 ships granted French/Spanish reloading. In this game in 10 minutes a ship fire even more than 10 times. We all know the reality in this game. Again people dares saying Victory got demasted. I have to point out AGAIN that the foretopsail of Victory, still preserved, HAD OVER 90 HOLES... and Victory lost her masts after a collision too. So again: nothing in NA about demasting has to do with reality. Nothing. And I'd repeat. I do agree that playability has to take precedence over realism (NA will not get a lot of players with tacking would require 10-15 minutes as in truth). BUT DEMASTING META IS NOT REAL NOR USEFUL TO MAKE GAME MORE ENJOYABLE. As stated in other topic... I consider buffing by 100% up to over 150% masts HP as bare minimum to make this game more balanced (and real). I still agree that making the new heavily buffed mast HP a function of sail damage too so if sails (and so stays and shrouds) are at 60%, Mast HP should be reduced of the same amount, could be even more advisable. Thanks for reading. Let's see the mast patch tomorrow but I don't believe it will make anything better. It's better not to judge to early Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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