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rosebud2

Please Explain This

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I boarded an enemy ship (NPC) with roughly the same amount of crew as I have (480.) The NPC has more marines, but I have more muskets (100 marines 120 muskets vs 0 marines 260 muskets.) The boarding goes as follows.

Round   what I do/kills            what he does/kills

1    Brace             / 4                 Fires guns      /15

2    Attack            /59                grenades        /98

3     Defend          /67                 Attack            /72

4      Muskets fire /19               Musket fire  /29

5      Defend          /55                Attack          /58

6       Fire guns     /30                 Attack        /130

NPC wins and I still have 150 crew left.

Here are my questions;

A ) How come I have to finish every single crewman from an NPC when I face them, (I have fought with 150 to 1 odds and that brave NPC survivor refuses to yield)  yet I surrender with 150 crewmen left?

B ) Rounds 2/3/5 were the perfect responses to the NPC's choice, yet on each occasion I received more losses then he did, how? 

C ) Round 4 was musket fire vs musket fire, I had twice as many muskets and faired worse, how?

D ) Round 2 is literally the reverse of round 6 and yet in each case the NPC did far better, how?

     Does it make a shred of difference if I do the right move at the right time. Why bother hitting Defend against Attack, if this is the outcome. If you are going to have boarding and a system that is supposed to reward the proper reply to the chosen attack, then how does this happen? The real problem is that this happens all the time. The reason that it happens all the time is that the NPC have to be given special powers so that they aren't pushovers. If the system for boarding requires that unfair results be programed into the actions involving the NPC's, then that system is flawed. If the system is flawed, then it is flawed not only for battles involving NPC's, but for battles involving players as well.

   

Edited by rosebud2

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Let's try to explain.

NPC'S like they are  in every aspect they aim better in combat, npc's have Marines and can load faster. Have you noticed this?

Npc's are full with upgrades to make them not to easy,  special boarding get's tweaked a bit in the old days you coud cap 1st rates in a 4th/3rd Rate with 2 or 3rounds in boarding.(with the right upgrades).

For now if you do not run boarding upgrades you shoud first grape the Npc befor you board them.

Take attention to your crew and the Npc's crew. If Npc got more Crew then you, you shoud take some attention to go not under 3.6kn. If you get under 3.6kn Npc will board you.

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I notice you're not the attacker in this situation. It seems like Counter Attack isn't nearly as affective as attack. Your best bet in this situation would've been brace/defend/disengage.

Also you have no marines which is a HUGE deal in boarding.

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Look like you lost a lot of moral while attacking into his grenades. Besides crew number muskets and marines moral is important to deal high dmg. If you are low on moral your attacks and defends can be less effective. You can see that in round 3.

If you are fighting a ship with marines but you don't have marines don't try to fight on the enemy ship. Lure the enemy into your defends and break his grenades with musket fire. Only attack when you have high crew and moral advantage. 

See it like that the other ship is cramped with marines when you attack he has full potential to use all of them while you use just a small boarding party.  You can use it to your advantage by letting the enemy come to you. You reduce his available number of marines while you have crew advantage on your ship.

 

Edited by z4ys

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Boarding is one thing that needs a bit of love. Not that a complete overhaul has high priority, but there are things that need explanation (optimally integrated into an advanced boarding tutorial script):

.) What influence has morale and what influences morale

.) What influence has preparation (time to choose). Cost and gain are based on rounds, but the effect isn't

.) What do marines, muskets, guns do? What do they and their effectiveness depend on?

.) What do the Upgrades exactly do?

It is all maths, but knowing the formulas and correlations would help very much

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9 hours ago, rosebud2 said:

If the system for boarding requires that unfair results be programed into the actions involving the NPC's, then that system is flawed.

 

If the system is flawed, then it is flawed not only for battles involving NPC's, but for battles involving players as well.   

Oh boy, oh boy...

 

If a child needs to be given a stepping ladder to compete with an adult in a basketball throwing contest, what is flawed, disregarding obvious answer of the contest itself? The ruleset of basketball? The stepping ladder? Or the child? Yes, it is the child. The child is too small, thus flawed, but it is cheaply employable and available in huge amount. The child, as flawed as it is, does not need to eat a lot and needs barely any rest, making it a perfect fill for a testing chair. The child is necessary, as flawed as it is.

Does it mean ... well... everything is flawed, since the child is flawed? Like, dunno, toilet paper - the child does not use? NO. Hell no. Why would that even be a bullet point is beyond me. It's extremely silly to say so.

The AI-child is flawed, obviously, if for nothing else then for inability to not be AI. It's an AI in a guessing game, in a game of mind reading, an algorithm that lacks both the ability to guess and a mind of its own. Of course the AI needs to be adjusted to be used alongside such a game, and such adjustments can as well be broad and unfair. This is temporary form, necessarium only to avoid yet another flaw, that being the human testers' fault of being too tempted to not use the easy way out. Simple and absolutely normal.

 

And since we disregarded the silly statement of "if AI cannot do it, it's flawed" (honestly, WTF?), the second part falls apart of its own. Even then, if we replaced the first argument with something sensible, the statement holds no water. Why would a certain fault be automatically translatable between AI and a player? If a system can be gamed by a player, does that mean AI will automatically game it too? And if AI lacks the ability to fake guesswork, does that mean players posses similar perfect computing power and information access? Hell no. Again, why would that make any sense?

 

I agree boarding needs a lot of discussion, a lot of explanation and a lot of work in general - for both devs and testers. But throwing around tantrum-like accusations that make no sense serves that not. It makes water murkier, it makes it harder to actually reach the problems and see the faults for what they are. 

Edited by Galileus

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1 hour ago, Galileus said:

[...]what is flawed [...] ? [...] the child? Yes, it is the child. The child is too small, thus flawed, but it is cheaply employable and available in huge amount. The child, as flawed as it is, does not need to eat a lot and needs barely any rest, making it a perfect fill for a testing chair. [...]

There has to be a real-life story behind this XD

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14 hours ago, rosebud2 said:

Round   what I do/kills            what he does/kills

1    Brace             / 4                 Fires guns      /15  

2    Attack            /59                grenades        /98  your 1st mistake he had way more fire power then your melee and firepower.  You lost a lot of crew and  I am sure moral (will bet real money you did this at last second also and lost almost all your prep.)

3     Defend          /67                 Attack            /72 After you made 1st mistake it hard to come back but not impossible your moral and crew even your firepower are lower here, was really noway to win here..... breaking close to even best you could have done that is what you did.

4      Muskets fire /19               Musket fire  /29  Another mistake you made, you  could have gained some ground here if you had of musket fired into a Defend.

5      Defend          /55                Attack          /58 YOu have not made any ground up from 1st mistake so your moral and crew and Fire power are still lower

6       Fire guns     /30                 Attack        /130 Nail in Coffin 

What ever people tell you about this game, and lot say boarding Sucks is because they don't under stand all the numbers next to all the stuff.  You can win just about every fight with a NPC no matter your set up as long as your play smart may/will take you a while.  Players that know what they are doing and understand the numbers, you will never win even with more upgrades ver that player, if you don't understand how it works.

I had a screen shot/ Sheet.... Somewhere for Black what the number mean.   SO that you always knew your melee and Firepower ver what every they threw at you for each ships would be.  But I am sure that is out of date, but not hard to make one for your self for each boat. Once you understand how it works it is extremely easy to win boards ver NPC's every single time,  most players that don't win, don't spend the time and don't do the work, or know someone that did.  They Would rather complain about it.
PM me I don't mind getting on and given you a crash course of the numbers.  and give you a plan to get better but you will have to do the work your self.

 

 

Boarding is not broke just people don't understand it. and many that do are tight lip about it.

Edited by JobaSet

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12 hours ago, JobaSet said:

Boarding is not broke just people don't understand it. and many that do are tight lip about it.

tis true, tis totally true

 

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14 hours ago, Norfolk nChance said:

tis true, tis totally true

 

Hehe I worked with you for weeks, I remember helping you know and understand everything you needed to know to get better at.  But even knowing everything about it, and how it works.  You still have to practice a LOT.

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@rosebud2

 

This is just my 2 cents fella. Before we start, the AI will always carry more marines than you (double in OW). I carry the marine Officer (or muskets buff real title). The Marine upgrade takes too many of your crew.

I disagree with B) rounds 2-3-5 where not the perfect response. You’ll see why in a second. Engaging AI ships make sure you are prepped. It also is a waiting game following his moves rather than PvP where you instigate an attack approach. Even crew or slightly less you’re ok as long as you’ve prepped.

Round 1 – Just wait till he moves first. In this case Fire Guns. This will be his best attack. Counter here with ATTACK. Look at the melee response both sides deliver or how many kills you do...

Round 2 – whether he killed more or not, unless a massive difference you’re ok and you still show “Attack”. Wait now for the count down and he’ll change from “BRACE” to “DEFEND”. If you immediately change to “Muskets” when he changes he will not change his position again.

Round 3 – Now you’ll show “Brace” he’ll still show Defend. Wait for him now. He would have then done Grenades. If you’ve still some prep left ATTACK immediately he won’t change.

Round 4 – Now like Round 2, you show ATTACK he is at Brace. Wait for him to Defend and go Muskets. He won’t change.

This now would have broken his back. You’ve kill a lot of his crew and just repeat. Use ATTACK and Muskets together...

 

Hope this helps

 

Norfolk.

 

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@rosebud2

 

 

My boarding failure...

I was moving into the AI Alonzo Mesa ship loaded with grape. Got a tad too close and was pulled before I got my broadside off. Mis-Match of 90 CREW in his favor. Noticed I’m already prepped he’s got marines and muskets.

It’ll be a tough one as I’m the one that was pulled. Counter Attack is much weaker than Attack. Not firing the Grape broadside will hurt me. At least I’m prepped though...

 

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930426617194400274/9969E00A673C9A4CF5E9BF9D429BA8B3B78AC366/

So, like I suggested wait for his attack first then counter. He went Grenades I went C-Attack. I know I would lose crew but hopefully gain on the next few rounds. I get crew shock which I wasn’t expecting and such a difference in losses. The numbers much closer shown on the melee line before.

Round 2 – Wait for his defend counter to my c-attack and switch to Muskets. With the CREW shock my muskets are less effective but still do damage.

Round 3 – I’m Brace and waiting his move. He changes from Defend to Attack unusual but the correct move for him. The AI seeing he’s killed 200 crew so far and I have killed 114 plus I’m 90 down on him to start with. I can only defend and at the end otherwise he goes muskets. This shrinks my prep...

It looks like I’ve got away with it, lost 70 crew but inflicted 69 into the AI. Unfortunately, percentage terms my losses are hurting.

This was the final screen shot I got.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930426617194400491/DDB7E9A8231C74BB17F85AE1F66C379D568DC04D/

 

Round 4 – my fatal mistake. I go C-Attack immediately. Allowing for the timer to clear. Waiting for his DEFEND which occurs. At the last second, I was too late in triggering MUSKETs so stayed C-Attack and was run over...

Round 5 – By then its lost with too few crew and a switch counter by him that finishes it.

 

My Mistakes

No issue with the loss at all. I should have gone for the stern grape first. Getting greedy wanting multiple kills and rushing in too fast. The Crew difference I wasn’t too worried about, but should have waited for the second attack when I saw Grenades. The crew shock dropped my kill rate for the muskets.

From then on it become an uphill struggle. The late mistake Round 4 if it hadn’t happened would have only delayed my eventual loss I guess later.

 

Norfolk

 

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32 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

@rosebud2

 

 

My boarding failure...

I was moving into the AI Alonzo Mesa ship loaded with grape. Got a tad too close and was pulled before I got my broadside off. Mis-Match of 90 CREW in his favor. Noticed I’m already prepped he’s got marines and muskets.

It’ll be a tough one as I’m the one that was pulled. Counter Attack is much weaker than Attack. Not firing the Grape broadside will hurt me. At least I’m prepped though...

 

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930426617194400274/9969E00A673C9A4CF5E9BF9D429BA8B3B78AC366/

So, like I suggested wait for his attack first then counter. He went Grenades I went C-Attack. I know I would lose crew but hopefully gain on the next few rounds. I get crew shock which I wasn’t expecting and such a difference in losses. The numbers much closer shown on the melee line before.

Round 2 – Wait for his defend counter to my c-attack and switch to Muskets. With the CREW shock my muskets are less effective but still do damage.

Round 3 – I’m Brace and waiting his move. He changes from Defend to Attack unusual but the correct move for him. The AI seeing he’s killed 200 crew so far and I have killed 114 plus I’m 90 down on him to start with. I can only defend and at the end otherwise he goes muskets. This shrinks my prep...

It looks like I’ve got away with it, lost 70 crew but inflicted 69 into the AI. Unfortunately, percentage terms my losses are hurting.

This was the final screen shot I got.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930426617194400491/DDB7E9A8231C74BB17F85AE1F66C379D568DC04D/

 

Round 4 – my fatal mistake. I go C-Attack immediately. Allowing for the timer to clear. Waiting for his DEFEND which occurs. At the last second, I was too late in triggering MUSKETs so stayed C-Attack and was run over...

Round 5 – By then its lost with too few crew and a switch counter by him that finishes it.

 

My Mistakes

No issue with the loss at all. I should have gone for the stern grape first. Getting greedy wanting multiple kills and rushing in too fast. The Crew difference I wasn’t too worried about, but should have waited for the second attack when I saw Grenades. The crew shock dropped my kill rate for the muskets.

From then on it become an uphill struggle. The late mistake Round 4 if it hadn’t happened would have only delayed my eventual loss I guess later.

 

Norfolk

 

1st round ....You Should have waited.... until he attacked you then...defended.  You have way worse than 50/50 his 1st non attack is going to ass stop you ver attack with less crew. His grenades was his weak off Attack.  Since he didn't throw that 1st while your were in brace.

FYI remember if his 1st move of a NPC is Deck gun "While you are in Brace" Deck guns are his most powerful" (most of time lol)  If he Grenades you 1st round its a 50/50 on its going to hurt ver attack.

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2 hours ago, JobaSet said:

1st round ....You Should have waited.... until he attacked you then...defended.  You have way worse than 50/50 his 1st non attack is going to ass stop you ver attack with less crew. His grenades was his weak off Attack.  Since he didn't throw that 1st while your were in brace.

FYI remember if his 1st move of a NPC is Deck gun "While you are in Brace" Deck guns are his most powerful" (most of time lol)  If he Grenades you 1st round its a 50/50 on its going to hurt ver attack.

Totally agree, I knew I’d take more losses but I’d get into the kill routine. The losses shown prior in melee were nowhere near as high as 113. However, I should have known. I was Pulled first off so his advantage. With the slightly more crew and my C-Attack instead of Attack gave him the bonus in his attack to deliver Crew shock.

In Hindsight, I should have stayed Brace taken a crew 15 - 25 hit. Round 2 – waiting he’d have attacked with “Fire Deck Guns” so I’d then go C-Attack. He I don’t think would have “Attack” as my crew loss wouldn’t be that much. If he had then yes, I’d have Defend last second.

Hard lesson learned...

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1293447946

the idea to aim for...

 

 

 

Edited by Norfolk nChance

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All good advice, I clearly need to put some more work into my boarding and rethink some of my stratagems. Thank you all for your assistance in this matter.

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On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:03 AM, Galileus said:

Oh boy, oh boy...

 

If a child needs to be given a stepping ladder to compete with an adult in a basketball throwing contest, what is flawed, disregarding obvious answer of the contest itself? The ruleset of basketball? The stepping ladder? Or the child? Yes, it is the child. The child is too small, thus flawed, but it is cheaply employable and available in huge amount. The child, as flawed as it is, does not need to eat a lot and needs barely any rest, making it a perfect fill for a testing chair. The child is necessary, as flawed as it is.

Does it mean ... well... everything is flawed, since the child is flawed? Like, dunno, toilet paper - the child does not use? NO. Hell no. Why would that even be a bullet point is beyond me. It's extremely silly to say so.

The AI-child is flawed, obviously, if for nothing else then for inability to not be AI. It's an AI in a guessing game, in a game of mind reading, an algorithm that lacks both the ability to guess and a mind of its own. Of course the AI needs to be adjusted to be used alongside such a game, and such adjustments can as well be broad and unfair. This is temporary form, necessarium only to avoid yet another flaw, that being the human testers' fault of being too tempted to not use the easy way out. Simple and absolutely normal.

 

And since we disregarded the silly statement of "if AI cannot do it, it's flawed" (honestly, WTF?), the second part falls apart of its own. Even then, if we replaced the first argument with something sensible, the statement holds no water. Why would a certain fault be automatically translatable between AI and a player? If a system can be gamed by a player, does that mean AI will automatically game it too? And if AI lacks the ability to fake guesswork, does that mean players posses similar perfect computing power and information access? Hell no. Again, why would that make any sense?

 

I agree boarding needs a lot of discussion, a lot of explanation and a lot of work in general - for both devs and testers. But throwing around tantrum-like accusations that make no sense serves that not. It makes water murkier, it makes it harder to actually reach the problems and see the faults for what they are. 

Post deleted by author.

Edited by rosebud2
enlightenment

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1 hour ago, maturin said:

Mate, he's calling the AI a child, not you.

If you're not a chatbot, you shouldn't be taking offense.

Thank you, upon a re-read from that perspective you are correct.

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