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Hotfix for mastthickness

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look at these videos

 

The main problem besides mast thickness and hp is obvious. 

How big are the hitboxes? How does dispersion really work? I don't know if the values in the wiki are updated because I can't go into the game right now but According to the wiki the base horizontal dispersion is 5 m every 100 m (8m for edinorog). So at 300 m it adds up to 15m. Accuracy upgrades lessen this a bit. In this old topic by @admin (http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/582-naval-action-cannons/) there is an explanation. I don't know if it is still valid. How is it possible to hit the top sections at those ranges consistently?

 

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14 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Double charge, I've seen my own video. Maybe next time don't tell the cameraman to watch his own videos.

@Banished Privateer

Thats double ball. When you load charge, it says charge.

 

Maybe next time the cameraman will watch his own videos.

 

Edited by Intrepido

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1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

 

Thats double ball. When you load charge, it says charge.

 

Maybe next time the cameraman will watch his own videos.

 

What's wrong with you? You're blind or what?

6oLZ2R.jpg

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Just now, Banished Privateer said:

What's wrong with you? You're blind or what?

6oLZ2R.jpg

We were talking about two different things.

I was talking about your broadside against the Victory`s hull.

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9 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

We were talking about two different things.

I was talking about your broadside against the Victory`s hull.

This topic is about demasting and mast thickness. Nonetheless, I had +13% extra penetration, so my double ball was almost like normal ball + carronades had better pen.

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2 hours ago, Cecil Selous said:

look at these videos

...

The main problem besides mast thickness and hp is obvious. 

They say that only pr0 gamers can do this.  I think it has been like 1.5 years that people have believed that it is just for pr0 gamers.  Which is probably the reason why it takes so long to get this fixed.

From that distance I think it should be next to impossible to hit masts.  Ball hit box is huge.  Masts are like magnets and sometimes it feels like that you miss but you actually hit.

-

Double Shot and Charged could be basically 6 point perks.  This way none could have both.  Those are the 2 best perks and both cost 1 point.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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4 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Double Shot and Charged could be basically 6 point perks.  This way none could have both.  Those are the 2 best perks and both cost 1 point.

Well I do think that they are very powerful but on the other hand they are not exactly rocket science that require extensive knowledge or skill of a crew and thus don't justify any greater cost of perk points then they do now.

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1 minute ago, Cecil Selous said:

Well I do think that they are very powerful but on the other hand they are not exactly rocket science that require extensive knowledge or skill of a crew and thus don't justify any greater cost of perk points then they do now.

How that has anything to do with anything?  It is a computer game.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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Mostly because I don't think that double charge and double shot are the main cause of easy demasting. And even if it is just a computer game artificially making simple and common things (like double shotted cannons) harder is irritating, at least for me.

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Cmdr, you seem to forget that those "pro" players who defend demasting, have always argued that it should be properly balanced... :) And whenever demasting has been way too easy,  those "pro" players have also been some of the first to come with suggestions on how to balance it. 
Albeit, it has to be balanced. Lots of people who are against demasting come with ideas that make it so demasting isn't viable (Result of that; Chain Spam everywhere instead.)

Soo, can we stop pointing fingers as to who is at fault here? And instead maybe just focus finding proper balance? 

Also, double charge/double ball is not the culprit here. You only have a limited amount of those and you have to quite careful with your shots/broadsides when using it. (You absolutely do not want to waste it.)

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3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Double ball (less pen), 300m range, from full health to 60%... and it is good. . Ok.

what was the wasa fir fir?^^

Edited by z4ys

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Sorry Mr Policeman but with all such directions in this thread, i have a feeling that i am lost...

 

But my opinion is whatever makes the game better, involving better sailing most of all, will have my vote: we are sailors before to be fighters/traders/whatsoever. 

Edited by blubasso

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57 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Vic, not wasa.

Look at this.

 

If you watch the whole video, you will see the Wasa, even after where that video starts you will see he fired his starboard side at a Wasa missing its main mast, and pretty much sinks it in a single broadside.

 

Please people watch before you comment.

 

At the 28sec mark you will see what he does to the Wasa... it was epic.  He destroyed the Wasa's masts in a single pass... it was funny.

Edited by Odol

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20 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Cmdr, you seem to forget that those "pro" players who defend demasting, have always argued that it should be properly balanced... :)

...
Also, double charge/double ball is not the culprit here. You only have a limited amount of those and you have to quite careful with your shots/broadsides when using it. (You absolutely do not want to waste it.)

I know Tommy ;)  .. We have had our arguments, did not have anything personal here.  I actually think that it is good that you are here trying to get things in balance.  Even though we don't always agree.

Sometimes people are asking really weird things here and devs are doing what they ask.  No offence for anyone.

If you could take just one, double shot or charged, it would create an interesting option.  Which one you would take?  Everyone wants to have both as today many are building plenty on these.  I have seen many fights were people shoot double shots and finish someones hull and charged to take down masts & board another.

Charged shot 20% is very high amount of penetration.  Basically you make your cannons simply able to penetrate.  Perk that cost 1 point.  Not bad right?  Maybe Devs should balance masts assuming that everyone has charged shots.

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3 hours ago, GhastlyGhost said:

Didnt they removed penetration penalty from double balls ?

And its ***** Santi. Ship with the highest FIREPOWER in game. What did you expected ?

You know I posted the old stats on them and some one brought up they removed the penalities and I didn't know that. Maybe for testing we can bring them back.  Lower damage for double charge and lower pen for double ball.  It seems that could be something to adjust the demasting with such.   

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I Agree with those saying to keep the thickness as it is, give a HP buff to all sections. Don't remove demasting, that would be stupid. 

The thickness has always been too high and the HP way too low. 

Balance Hull HP and Mast HP so that either is the dominant tactic.

Edited by Sureshot
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4 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Charged shot 20% is very high amount of penetration.  Basically you make your cannons simply able to penetrate.  Perk that cost 1 point.  Not bad right?  Maybe Devs should balance masts assuming that everyone has charged shots.

Your ship carries gunpowder. You load more than the "normal amount" to get double charge.

  • And by the way, if research will show that the pressure curves for black powder are very..."gentle" (I'm not sure that is the best word to refer to an explosive charge but...yeah)...meaning that you can overcharge by a considerable amount before reaching an unsafe level. I believe that it was Admin who said that the "standard" charge was really about 1/2 of the rated charge for the cannon, but usually plenty to do the job. 

Your ship carries cannonballs. You load two to get double shot.

  • Shorter range and less accurate, but a lot of damage.

The only reason I can see to need a perk at all is to avoid people constantly using one or the other. It is fine that the perks cost only 1 point each. Don't balance masts on the basis of someone using charge or penetration modules or mast thickness modules or...

 

I'll say it again. Leave mast thickness as it is, buff HP. I'm not the only player who feels this way either: @TommyShelby's suggestion to just do the HP buff in small increments instead of one huge over-buff that lasts weeks or months before finally being properly balanced is definitely the way to go.

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5 hours ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

 

Luckily I'm here to provide some help through a diagram.......some people are more visual. 

 

mast.thumb.jpg.27c84e9e47db0cf0e3e73cb1f3e64ab3.jpg

Except that's a sail hit.

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In all seriousness the whole debate on masts being too strong or too weak has been ongoing for as long as I can remember. Watching them ping pong back and forth from matchsticks to indestructible pillars and somewhere in between. Further complicating the situation we have had various mods, both to buff masts and those that increase cannon penetration, along with things like charged shot,  and an improved cannon aiming mechanic. As is the case with other aspects of the game....the more variables you add to the formula the harder it becomes to balance. If you were starting from ground zero simply with vanilla type ships and no mods it would probably be a much easier problem to tackle. 

We simply have way too many mods that stack that directly effect things like accuracy, mast thickness, mast hp's, cannon penetration....not to include all of the others that effect speed and armor etc. One guy running three mast mods might have a very different experience then the guy who doesn't have any. Who do you balance them around? Should every player be expected to run 2-3 mast mods in order to reach a more acceptable performance level from them? Perhaps it is the players fault for not using those mods? Same thing goes for the guy who is running say multiple accuracy mods enabling rather pinpoint firing of 18th century cannon tech? This is why so many of us have been saying these mods need to be NERFED across the board and limited in stacking. At the very least they should either have a system of diminishing returns and/or every mod that offers a bonus stat should confer a negative as well. 

With that being said....right now for a quick "hotfix" mast hp's should be buffed. You have to take into consideration the relative ease at which they can be hit when determining what those buffed hp numbers should be. I would definitely rather see smaller tweaks to these numbers rather than a huge change but this is something that should be actively under review. Not make a tweak to those numbers then wait 6 months to see if they need further adjustment. The video that showed the Constitution vs 6 shots was a perfect example of things I don't like to see in game. I would challenge anyone to show me an example throughout naval history where individual cannons were fired at that range....one at a time....and picked off masts like that. While that was some fine gunnery in game its about as realistic as a fat man skipping a free ticket to an all you can eat dinner buffet.  

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Quote

The video that showed the Constitution vs 6 shots was a perfect example of things I don't like to see in game. I would challenge anyone to show me an example throughout naval history where individual cannons were fired at that range....one at a time....and picked off masts like that. While that was some fine gunnery in game its about as realistic as a fat man skipping a free ticket to an all you can eat dinner buffet.  

Note that those were edinorogs. They're supposed to have bad accuracy according to their stats. And at the same time they do more damage than just about anything.

Once again, some horizontal dispersion for lobbing shots would help here.

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