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Percival Merewether

Exciting OR RNG crafting is back, and I have a problem with it.

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I like the idea that ships are now more customizable than ever - I truly believe that this benefits gameplay and makes things more interesting and unpredictable in PvP. An Endymion is no longer just an Endymion.

But why RNG? RNG has always been and will always be game-breaking in my opinion - especially when it costs time and resources. I should be able to get a ship identical to that of my friend provided that we have the same crafter making it using the same materials.

I'd like to propose the following:

  • Create a set of resources that only spawns in a few locations on the map (such as Copper and Cartagena Tar).
  • Make it easier to get the special resources to give people an incentive to go and get them. Make use of trade missions for this; a 5-hour sail = 5 Cartagena tar.
  • Make the new Trims require these resources too.
  • Create skill-books for each trim for the crafter to learn if he wants to make it part of his ship build.
  • Make the skill-books purchasable from the Admiralty-store using Trademarks obtained through Trade missions.
  • Let the crafter choose the quality of his ship so that we always know how many upgrade-slots the ships have by using extra/special materials.

End RNG..! Bring back skill.! - Give people a reason to be crafters/traders.

By implementing this you will increase the number of ships in OW, encourage trade, encourage PvP, end monopoly on special materials and get rid of RNG

Edited by NicklasK
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If you tie it to resources, the "best" trims will be monopolized by the power gamers, instead of simply a nice extra "bonus" randomly available to all.

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Two extra permanent slots, with super trims and the OP skill books stacking is not just a "nice extra bonus." It's a must-have for competitive RvR and PvP fleets and should never be a RNG outcome.

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1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Two extra permanent slots, with super trims and the OP skill books stacking is not just a "nice extra bonus." It's a must-have for competitive RvR and PvP fleets and should never be a RNG outcome.

Yeah but is the issue the RNG, or that some mods/trims/books are "must haves" rather than "nice to haves"? 

I'd say it is the latter.

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6 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

If you tie it to resources, the "best" trims will be monopolized by the power gamers, instead of simply a nice extra "bonus" randomly available to all.

I disagree - If you guarantee the availability of the resources through trade-missions, then you can get the resources for the trim you need by sailing for 2-3 hours instead. A sail like that can easily be split up into smaller bits by logging out at sea.

This benefits the casuals since they do not have the time or money to build the ship again and again,

Edited by NicklasK

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Just now, TommyShelby said:

Yeah but is the issue the RNG, or that some mods/trims/books are "must haves" rather than "nice to haves"? 

I'd say it is the latter.

I'd tend to agree with you... but even slight edges conveyed by RNG gods, once compounded across 25 ships and magnified by the skill of the user will be game changers.

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3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'd tend to agree with you... but even slight edges conveyed by RNG gods, once compounded across 25 ships and magnified by the skill of the user will be game changers.

Even if that slight edge is only say, 5% extra HP? 1% higher speed? (Copper Plating was once 0,5% speed boost forexample). 

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1 minute ago, TommyShelby said:

Even if that slight edge is only say, 5% extra HP? 1% higher speed? (Copper Plating was once 0,5% speed boost forexample). 

There are many other reasons for doing this than just an advantage in mods - such as making the crafters more relevant

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I'm definitely of the opinion that ships should be meaningfully customizable, and so different ships with different mods can fill different roles depending on the proclivity of the captain.

But 5% accuracy and 5% penetration, stacked twice in your hands is game breaking.. ;) That shouldn't keep you from using it, but I shouldn't have to wonder whether you are running a 5/5 ship, and that extra permanent mod over my lowly 3-4/5, maybe an Elite Gunners is the reason I'm losing my masts every time we meet, instead of the fact that you're just a freakishly good demaster, etc.

My point is, customization should be there, and it should be a combination of crafting skill choices (I do kind of like the port-based ship-building bonuses that are the choice of the port owner) and non-OP mods/books, but that it shouldn't be RNG-based at all.  Leave the RNG for reduced materials or receipt of a bonus permit/note or something for the crafter.. maybe even the receipt of a random paint for the crafted ship, etc., but those RNG elements shouldn't affect the crafted ship.

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Another thought is that with the advent of victory marks, resources to craft 1st rates are finite.  And while this might be by design, It does present a problem where far too much power is given to those who got "lucky" with their marks and got special trims and or 5 slots over those who did not get lucky.  For example I just crafted a L'Ocean and it was a standard 3/5.  Player X in Sweden could craft an Ocean and get a 5/5 sturdy.  Neither of us has the ability to just pump out 10 more and hope we get lucky.  If all 25 of Swedens ships have 2 extra slots vs 25 Russian ships with only 3, that is quite a disparity

If you want to limit the amount of 1st rates in battles, just friggen do it and put a hard cap in place for each BR level.  

At best this is poor balance and at worst this is just poor game design.  RVR / End game content should always be about player skill and player decisions (tactics), not about how lucky they got with their crafting.  

@admin No one asked for this change.  RNG in ship building was almost universally disliked back when it used to be in the game.  I mean if you want to spice up crafting bring back crafting regions or make "special" build types require items that only drop from OW fleets.

One has to ask........WTF were you thinking?

Edited by Christendom
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1 hour ago, Powderhorn said:

If you tie it to resources

It's already tied to recources, because you will probably need ungodly amounts of recources and especially the best woods to build ships in the dozen to get 1 or 2 with a good trim and maybe, yeah just maybe if RNGesus blessed you a bonus permanent slot and 4-5 over 3 permanent slots is everything but minor. 

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6 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Another thought is that with the advent of victory marks, resources to craft 1st rates are finite.  And while this might be by design, It does present a problem where far too much power is given to those who got "lucky" with their marks and got special trims and or 5 slots over those who did not get lucky.  For example I just crafted a L'Ocean and it was a standard 3/5.  Player X in Sweden could craft an Ocean and get a 5/5 sturdy.  Neither of us has the ability to just pump out 10 more and hope we get lucky.  If all 25 of Swedens ships have 2 extra slots vs 25 Russian ships with only 3, that is quite a disparity

If you want to limit the amount of 1st rates in battles, just friggen do it and put a hard cap in place for each BR level.  

At best this is poor balance and at worst this is just poor game design.  RVR / End game content should always be about player skill and player decisions (tactics), not about how lucky they got with their crafting.  

@admin No one asked for this change.  RNG in ship building was almost universally disliked back when it used to be in the game.  I mean if you want to spice up crafting bring back crafting regions or make "special" build types require items that only drop from OW fleets.

One has to ask........WTF were you thinking?

Oh ffs.. I so hate this.. But @admin even I agree with Christendom here.. So.... Just to get the world right:

 

#Globalserverfailedsohardsoletsalltryitalloveragain

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This is a gift to crafters who make ships not RNG 

Almost always you get a great  3-5 vessel, but sometimes due to fate or providence: good mood of the architect, good wenches the day before, better drier wood, your shipyard produces something better, and very very rarely something a lot better. Its a bonus. not RNG. It is not against the spirit of the age of sail. Classes had a lot of ships and some ships in those classes actually were found to be EVEN better. 

We are confident with this feature and love it. We are fully aware that some people look at it differently. But hey Its just a game.

This is a release feature. 

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8 minutes ago, Landsman said:

It's already tied to recources, because you will probably need ungodly amounts of recources and especially the best woods to build ships in the dozen to get 1 or 2 with a good trim and maybe, yeah just maybe if RNGesus blessed you a bonus permanent slot and 4-5 over 3 permanent slots is everything but minor. 

Thats why you should consider this feature a pleasant occasional surprise, a gift from your shipyard. You cannot rely on it. 
But if you get the 5 5 3 ship - it will be a ship to hold on to and spend 1 pt for fleet control for.

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1 minute ago, admin said:

This is a gift to crafters who make ships not RNG 

Almost always you get a great  3-5 vessel, but sometimes due to fate or providence: good mood of the architect, good wenches the day before, better drier wood, your shipyard produces something better, and very very rarely something a lot better. Its a bonus. not RNG. It is not against the spirit of the age of sail. Classes had a lot of ships and some ships in those classes actually were found to be EVEN better. 

We are confident with this feature and love it. We are fully aware that some people look at it differently. But hey Its just a game.

This is a release feature. 

These extra bonus gave me extra turn rate to my buc, which I love.

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5 minutes ago, admin said:

This is a gift to crafters who make ships not RNG 

Almost always you get a great  3-5 vessel, but sometimes due to fate or providence: good mood of the architect, good wenches the day before, better drier wood, your shipyard produces something better, and very very rarely something a lot better. Its a bonus. not RNG. It is not against the spirit of the age of sail. Classes had a lot of ships and some ships in those classes actually were found to be EVEN better. 

We are confident with this feature and love it. We are fully aware that some people look at it differently. But hey Its just a game.

This is a release feature. 

okay just stick with it.

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

Thats why you should consider this feature a pleasant occasional surprise, a gift from your shipyard. You cannot rely on it. 
But if you get the 5 5 3 ship - it will be a ship to hold on to and spend 1 pt for fleet control for.

RNG of any sort in crafting is just lazy game design that appeals to an addiction psychology that is toxic. Skill trees, intent, and strategy for customization are at the heart of what crafters want in your game, now and on release.  RNG is nothing but frustrating and creates haves and have-nots with no path forward other than a b.s. grind.

No one wants ships that are too valuable to sail, or too valuable to not sail.  This crock falls in both categories depending on the type of player you are, with no middle ground to be had.

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1 hour ago, Powderhorn said:

If you tie it to resources, the "best" trims will be monopolized by the power gamers, instead of simply a nice extra "bonus" randomly available to all.

We've been through this already and know what will happen: Power gamers will click hard for the special stuff (money doesn't matter). When we were active and had a resource train operational three crafters clicked, sold, clicked sold ad nauseam until all Rakers had optimal ships. Then we clicked to have spares. We were always in top golden ships.

I know the intention, but this will lead to more frustration among the power clickers and "normal" players. The former will tire and the latter will feel left out. Lower the drop rate and frustration will only increase in both camps.

You can't curb power gamer monopoly when you keep adding rare things. 

OW is by design a power gamer's sandbox, sometimes we pretend to care for the little man, but it's a sham.

"Randomly available to all" is almost Orwellian.

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Just now, Wraith said:

No one wants ships that are too valuable to sail, or too valuable to not sail.  This crock falls in both categories depending on the type of player you are, with no middle ground to be had.

I had a couple elite refits leftover from the merger, and I thought of them as "too valuable to use."  I didn't want to lose them, them being as rare as they were.

So I sold them for some PvP marks.

I'm tempted to get into the crafting game for some schweet ships.  And you know what I'd do with anything too rare to sail?

Hock it for some PvP marks or Victory Marks.

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Maybe if you want to keep Port Battles competetive and fair; disable special "super rare" ships for them - Otherwise the nation having more characters / alts / whatever will be able to produce more ships, therefore have a higher chance to get that extra % thickness / HP / Speed and get themselves and advantage

I like the change for Open World PvP though.

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3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

RNG of any sort in crafting is just lazy game design that appeals to an addiction psychology that is toxic. Skill trees, intent, and strategy for customization are at the heart of what crafters want in your game, now and on release.  RNG is nothing but frustrating and creates haves and have-nots with no path forward other than a b.s. grind.

No one wants ships that are too valuable to sail, or too valuable to not sail.  This crock falls in both categories depending on the type of player you are, with no middle ground to be had.

Well i disagree.

Thank you for sharing your opinion of course. And yes you are totally right. 60% of players love a little luck 40 % hate it. Powergamers and minmaxers will hate it. Majority will be ok with it. 
There is even a video on this subject by a guy who made magic the gathering great..

This feature stays.

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5 minutes ago, admin said:

This feature stays.

So no more "specialised" ships? With 3 slots, you had to sacrifice something in return for being super OP in one category, for example boarding or penetration. With 5 Slots we now go back to super OP ships. Now you can still have a full boarding set up with stronk masts or on-the-spot-turning. Great.

Now its even more about which player has more high end upgrades on the ship than skill.

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