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In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.


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On 1/26/2018 at 1:41 AM, Otto Kohl said:

How I love to read carebears crying because they can't win 5v1. Just stop carebearing pve, learn how to play smart and you won't be smashed that easy again. You all make so stupid mistakes all the time you don't even realize. 

Its not because of upgrades you get smashed. It's because you don't know how to sail, how to keep wind advantage, how to aim and how to shoot. You don't know wood type characteristics, your ship sailing profiles, mast thickness and gun penetration tables. Your "skill" gained in pve is worthless in pvp. Until you realize that you will be smashed in every engagement.

While I agree with your sentiments that PVE experience and PVP experience are two completely separate things.....I still disagree when it comes to the upgrade argument. When a group has access to certain mods or books or ships that another doesn't it is an advantage. If two equally skilled opponents face each other and one has some of the various mods in this game that are quite good and the other doesn't its a significant advantage. I'm not advocating for everyone having vanilla ships with no mods....I think customization is good.....but I will always argue that I prefer a system where everyone has equal accessibility to that customization. Essentially, I want to see mods moved back into the hands of crafting and taken away from RNG loot drops and marks. This is not directed at you by any means but I don't understand why anyone who really enjoys competitive PVP would want a system where their opponents did not at least have an opportunity to be equally equipped?  

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13 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I helped train up new guys for quite a while.  But I stopped at one point.  It was not the chore of giving ships and sailing with them.  It was how  the game developed post the great wipe.  They start out, sail get excited, learn, get better ships until they get about to the 250 crew level.  Then after getting sunk a bunch, seeing that the old salts have all grouped into their own club and beat the tar out of people nightly.  They might do a Port battle, but most likely, they will be stuck screening and realize they are not getting in the fight.  Then they get in a group and go out to hunt the enemy in enemy waters.  After wasted hour after wasted hour, they realize that is a waste of time too.

Trade missions are still a joke.  There is no mission content.  There are not enough players to do stuff many nights.

It has happened over and over.  A tutorial is not going to fix that.

So I stopped doing it (not that you see that many new guys anyway).  Not worth the time investment since they will play a month or so and be gone.

They game will not be playable until the best players stop grouping into small clumps and the power play is more spread out.

Nothing says you have to be in a port battle.  I have not bothered to get in a port battle in months.  And to be honest I have enjoyed the game way more without them.   But if that is what you want to do, put in your time as a screener, sooner or later the "clump" will let you in because they are short a person, or realize you are better than some of their regulars.  

It is like sitting on the bench, coach isnt going to put you in because you are there, he is going to put you in because he needs your skills. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Odol said:

Nothing says you have to be in a port battle.  I have not bothered to get in a port battle in months.  And to be honest I have enjoyed the game way more without them.   But if that is what you want to do, put in your time as a screener, sooner or later the "clump" will let you in because they are short a person, or realize you are better than some of their regulars.  

It is like sitting on the bench, coach isnt going to put you in because you are there, he is going to put you in because he needs your skills. 

 

Trophies may be for winning, but playing a game is for fun.  While your video I am sure is entertaining... we don't put high school kids against the NBA and then tell them to get gud or quit.

When a game is not fun, trophies don't matter.  Right now, for new players, there is so little medium term fun that they leave.  Clearly thousands of experienced players have funned out and are gone.

Right now, I am playing another game.  Each night I can find half a dozen things to do.  If I have a few minutes, I can do a short, low risk grind for gold or do daily crafting quests, do a look for mats loop or just go kills some stuff.  If I have an hour, I can run a quest and advance my character, run a short dungeon, sight see in a new area, collect quests for later do a quick PvP session.  If I have a couple or more hours I can do a more extended quest line, PvP to capture or defend a base, hard PvE, intense grind for items or just roam around.  All those choices are laid out for me.  This game simply does not have that choice or depth.

You can collect mats, low interaction trading, grind PvE or devote hours to hunt other players or do a Port (if the timing works and everything is set up).  Of course by doing a port that means about a one in 3 chance I'll get in after spending 3 to 4 hours to do it.

Trophy? No, I don't want a trophy.  I want to have fun.  That is harder than handing out trophies.

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21 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Trophies may be for winning, but playing a game is for fun.  While your video I am sure is entertaining... we don't put high school kids against the NBA and then tell them to get gud or quit.

When a game is not fun, trophies don't matter.  Right now, for new players, there is so little medium term fun that they leave.  Clearly thousands of experienced players have funned out and are gone.

Right now, I am playing another game.  Each night I can find half a dozen things to do.  If I have a few minutes, I can do a short, low risk grind for gold or do daily crafting quests, do a look for mats loop or just go kills some stuff.  If I have an hour, I can run a quest and advance my character, run a short dungeon, sight see in a new area, collect quests for later do a quick PvP session.  If I have a couple or more hours I can do a more extended quest line, PvP to capture or defend a base, hard PvE, intense grind for items or just roam around.  All those choices are laid out for me.  This game simply does not have that choice or depth.

You can collect mats, low interaction trading, grind PvE or devote hours to hunt other players or do a Port (if the timing works and everything is set up).  Of course by doing a port that means about a one in 3 chance I'll get in after spending 3 to 4 hours to do it.

Trophy? No, I don't want a trophy.  I want to have fun.  That is harder than handing out trophies.

So you did not watch the video, it wasn't a joke video or a spoof.   It is a serious video.

Now about your other game that you play, sounds like you are playing some theme park MMO, which is good and all but is nothing like Naval Action, Life is Feudal, Wurm Online, Mortal Online, Star Wars Galaxies, or any of the other sandbox MMOs.  All of which have no quests to hold your hand and guide you through and give you menial tasks to keep you entertained night to night.   In NA if you want to be part of something you have to work at it to be good enough to be part of it.  Not because you just happen to be high enough level to ques up for the event drop.  

For some of us being successful is fun, not just being part of the team.   At least this what my generation was taught, "if you ain't number 1, you're the first loser."

 

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10 hours ago, Odol said:

So you did not watch the video, it wasn't a joke video or a spoof.   It is a serious video.

Now about your other game that you play, sounds like you are playing some theme park MMO, which is good and all but is nothing like Naval Action, Life is Feudal, Wurm Online, Mortal Online, Star Wars Galaxies, or any of the other sandbox MMOs.  All of which have no quests to hold your hand and guide you through and give you menial tasks to keep you entertained night to night.   In NA if you want to be part of something you have to work at it to be good enough to be part of it.  Not because you just happen to be high enough level to ques up for the event drop.  

For some of us being successful is fun, not just being part of the team.   At least this what my generation was taught, "if you ain't number 1, you're the first loser."

 

And when you have some age and wisdom you learn that you are rarely number 1 and even if you are it does not last long.  So if you love life being a continual loser... have at it bud.  Or maybe you are one of those guys who sets up their own world with enough guardrails that he always wins.  That is sad in it's own way.  But unless you are continually on the top of the PvP daily list, in the top Clan and top nation all at the same time... welcome to loserville.

As far as this game, it barely gets 300 hundred players on at the same time most nights.  It ain't working and if any of those games had membership that low they would have failed long ago.

As far as sandbox... I don't care what box it's in.  I don't care what you call the content, but this game does not have enough to make the game compelling or corral players into useful places to interact.  As I said long ago, this game is pretty well done without a major improvement.  NA Legends will be the game that survives.  I did not find legends fun enough to grind levels.  I might try it again someday, but not for a while.

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14 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

And when you have some age and wisdom you learn that you are rarely number 1 and even if you are it does not last long.  So if you love life being a continual loser... have at it bud.  Or maybe you are one of those guys who sets up their own world with enough guardrails that he always wins.  That is sad in it's own way.  But unless you are continually on the top of the PvP daily list, in the top Clan and top nation all at the same time... welcome to loserville.

As far as this game, it barely gets 300 hundred players on at the same time most nights.  It ain't working and if any of those games had membership that low they would have failed long ago.

As far as sandbox... I don't care what box it's in.  I don't care what you call the content, but this game does not have enough to make the game compelling or corral players into useful places to interact.  As I said long ago, this game is pretty well done without a major improvement.  NA Legends will be the game that survives.  I did not find legends fun enough to grind levels.  I might try it again someday, but not for a while.

So instead of trying to be number 1, you are happy with being a failure?  You are willing to settle for being a bottom?   Don't want to strive to be better?  That is what I do, I push myself.  Even if I do not succeed at being number 1 today, I may get there tomorrow, or the next day.   But as soon as I give up and settle with being a loser, then that is when I have really lost.  

I can tell by your response you have pretty much given up on yourself and decided you are a bottom, you refuse to try to be better.  

And you dont have to be at the top of the PVP lists or in the top clan or in the top nation, pick your fights.  Be the best in what you do, for me that is light small ships.   Am I the best currently, doubtful, but does that stop me from trying, NO!   

If I was part of a clan I would want to push them to be better, to be number 1.  Who wouldnt?  

Same goes for my nation, if I am better, and my clan is better, then naturally my nation will be better for it.   You dont have a championship team with a bunch of people who are losers, who dont want to be better, who dont care about winning.

 

In my 40+ years on this Earth, those lessons, that drive, is what has lead me to being successful in my military career, and my life after the military.  The Army didnt want "losers" when I went in, and they dont train people to quit.  

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23 minutes ago, Odol said:

So instead of trying to be number 1, you are happy with being a failure?  You are willing to settle for being a bottom?   Don't want to strive to be better?  That is what I do, I push myself.  Even if I do not succeed at being number 1 today, I may get there tomorrow, or the next day.   But as soon as I give up and settle with being a loser, then that is when I have really lost.  

I can tell by your response you have pretty much given up on yourself and decided you are a bottom, you refuse to try to be better.  

And you dont have to be at the top of the PVP lists or in the top clan or in the top nation, pick your fights.  Be the best in what you do, for me that is light small ships.   Am I the best currently, doubtful, but does that stop me from trying, NO!   

If I was part of a clan I would want to push them to be better, to be number 1.  Who wouldnt?  

Same goes for my nation, if I am better, and my clan is better, then naturally my nation will be better for it.   You dont have a championship team with a bunch of people who are losers, who dont want to be better, who dont care about winning.

 

In my 40+ years on this Earth, those lessons, that drive, is what has lead me to being successful in my military career, and my life after the military.  The Army didnt want "losers" when I went in, and they dont train people to quit.  

So by your own standard, you are not #1 thus a loser?  Or is "try hard" good enough for ya now?

I have achieved all my goals in the game.  I got full value from my investment.  The gameplay now is not enjoyable enough to log in consistently at this point.

The game is failing to attract and keep new players and population levels are dropping consistently.  The game's development is showing more backwards development rather than forward.  In my experience, if you fail to recognize failure and keep investing in a loser... you are wasting your time.  I hope the game gets it together, improves it's game mechanics and content so I can enjoy the game for a decade to come.  But at this point, I have very little expectation that will happen.

My criticisms are in a hope that Devs will focus on something other than forced PvP.  But that is the one trick pony they are obsessed with and more of it will get the game more failure.

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58 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

So by your own standard, you are not #1 thus a loser?  Or is "try hard" good enough for ya now?

I have achieved all my goals in the game.  I got full value from my investment.  The gameplay now is not enjoyable enough to log in consistently at this point.

The game is failing to attract and keep new players and population levels are dropping consistently.  The game's development is showing more backwards development rather than forward.  In my experience, if you fail to recognize failure and keep investing in a loser... you are wasting your time.  I hope the game gets it together, improves it's game mechanics and content so I can enjoy the game for a decade to come.  But at this point, I have very little expectation that will happen.

My criticisms are in a hope that Devs will focus on something other than forced PvP.  But that is the one trick pony they are obsessed with and more of it will get the game more failure.

So you claim that you are mature, yet retort with childish insults.  And right now I am not number 1, but that doesn't keep me from trying does it?  And I would rather be a "try hard" than a non-factor, or a quitter.

I understand the issues with the game struggling and it is hard to keep the population interested in this game.  But there is a difference between criticizing and nagging.  If there is a problem that you see, form a valid argument against the issue, come up with a solution and make sure it is plausible in the current system.   

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Odol said:

So you claim that you are mature, yet retort with childish insults.  And right now I am not number 1, but that doesn't keep me from trying does it?  And I would rather be a "try hard" than a non-factor, or a quitter.

I understand the issues with the game struggling and it is hard to keep the population interested in this game.  But there is a difference between criticizing and nagging.  If there is a problem that you see, form a valid argument against the issue, come up with a solution and make sure it is plausible in the current system.   

 

 

 

I have.  Many times.  In fact, in another thread, I just put up a long post with many suggestions, many of them things the game has done in the past.

And as far as "childish insults"... what the heck do you think "if you ain't number 1, you're the first loser." is?  Esp when it comes from someone who is not #1.

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1 hour ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I have.  Many times.  In fact, in another thread, I just put up a long post with many suggestions, many of them things the game has done in the past.

And as far as "childish insults"... what the heck do you think "if you ain't number 1, you're the first loser." is?  Esp when it comes from someone who is not #1.

 

You assumed I was talking about you with that comment.  Fact is I was not.   I know I am not number 1, yet.   The difference again is I wont give up and roll over.

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On ‎25‎-‎1‎-‎2018 at 1:48 AM, Licinio Chiavari said:

A general note.

We like to stay close to realism, like notes about length to beam ratios to determine the turning rate (referring to previous Admin post on Constitution). Still this is a simulation GAME.

If we’d like a Simulation (period) we should have square rigged ships unable to close wind more than a few degrees over beam reach. The speed loss beyond the closest haul should not be a % every X degrees closing more. Beyond the closest point the ship will stop (starting to leeway a lot).

If you get a sailing boat you can close wind up to 40-45°. As you try to close a bit more, you’ll noticeably lose speed. Closing some more degrees will not slow more the boat. The boat will stop. Try to be sure.

If you’d like a SIMULATION, making a tack would require MINUTES, even 10 or more on very big and clumpsy ships. Turning a yard again: minutes, not seconds. Again try to be sure.

Clearly with these premises the game will be almost unplayable and surely not enjoyable.

What devs, as concept, did is great mixing realism and game. Still now I think we are out of target.

 

Ships.

Aside the problem with “random” BRs (Wasa and Constitution the same??) the problem is the balancing. And the proof is the use of almost the same ships in all PVP. So throwing away a lot of ships we have chance to sail.

Every sub-group of ships (6th rates, light 5th, heavier 5th, 4th…) should be balanced, with always pro and cons choosing one.

1st rates are quite balanced... and NOT BY CHANCE all more or less used in battle: Santissima has the heaviest side, Ocean slight more HP and crew, Victory smaller but nimbler. THIS is balance approx and they got too different BRs.

 

The utmost example of not balanced is Wasa and Constitution (and Agamennon too).

Same BR, the Wasa has almost 2 times the gunnery, she’s sturdier (losing a tiny bit of thickness), far more nimble. Wasa lost only 0.3 kts top speed. Same sailing profile.

Over the Agamennon, the Wasa is vastly superior in any respect aside top downwind speed. No comment.

 

Aside the most blind and utmost love - why someone should sail a Constitution and not a Wasa?

The problem is even worst being the Wasa on PVP market only: the better I’m, the more I can use the Wasa… with her I can beat a lot of inferior ships (with a bit crappier captains) and I keep getting PVP marks to get another. The losing side keeps being unable to get a Wasa to counter.

 

Around “heavier” 5th rate what do you meet in PVP? Endymions and Trincos. They are balanced each other with pros and cons… but superior to other ships. Who ever use frigs or Essex in PVP anymore (aside as targets)? Devs added the nice idea of LGV refit… and now AFAIK is broken.

 

3rd rate: we miss a third choise… and in the end it’s only one: the Bellona. Period. Something to be addressed for sure in the future.

 

I read some proposal, some reasonable, some less… still the way is clear:

 

Correct BRs.

Nerf Wasa and may be move her to 3rd rates: you got 2 decks of 32 / 24 pd: you have to be slower. And probably with worst turning rate, and worst acceleration.

In case of moving her to 3rd rate: Give her 600 crew may be.

Buff Agamennon: no sense really to use her atm. Crappy handling, awful sailing by beam reach, light broadside etc… we know.

Buff Constitution. She has to outmanouver a Wasa (almost a 3rd rate). Period.

And in the end, balance wise, she has to be able to easily run Agamennon/Ingermanland. Keeping into account the length to beam ratio etc… surely Connie pro will not be turning, still has to be faster and with less leeway (deep keel and lower deck - so less wind force on structure) in respect of other 4th rates.

She could outmanouver 3rd rates… she could withstand a side to side with Agamennon/Inger but not for long periods.

We can keep historical thickness, still we can buff Aga/Inger HP to make a prolonged side to side not a good (as realistic) good idea for a Connie granted adversary heavier broadside.

I love Endymion as she is now… still may be too OP. No real cons aside an only not exceptional turning. I’d (a pain for me) try to slightly reduce it a bit: She’ll be still able to tag or run… but going bad if trying a brawl.

Ideas are a lot… and for now on this topic I’ll stop.

 

Mechanics.

First and foremost demasting. Almost to be cancelled. It has to become as historical, more a random (very seldom) chance. Nothing you can aim for.

Realistic wise… aside stacking precision-penetration, the error IMO is physics.

Try to calc the maximum error in degrees a ball fired to a cylinder with a diameter of 1mt at 100 mt to have the ball delivering a good percentage of its kinetic energy. A ball hitting at 45° (so reducing the room for a good shot to almost half) respect exact center of the cylinder will deliver very small fraction of its energy.

Granted a 1mt wide mast and a 30cm ball a decent point of impact is less than 30-40cm on that mast. Anything hitting the mast not almost exactly in the center will bounce off. We are talking about 0.25° arc. A quarter than a single degree firing at 100mt.

Please. Imagine being able to aim a shot with such precision EVEN IN A GAME with a 1800 gun on a moving ship at sea to another moving ship at sea.

 

All the above without taking into account that a ball piercing a mast (with above precision!) and remaining inside (very difficult to pass by leaving a hole) will slightly reduce the mast ability to stay up… because masts stays up thanks to stayropes mainly.

Demasting should happen by very weird chance (two or more very well placed hits in the almost same spot of the mast itself) but with an higher and higher chance the more sails total damage the ship got: because sail damage means also stayropes damaged more and more so in this case a more unstable mast.

 

That said, on repairs.

Get back to 1 rep/ battle. It’s simply funny seeing ships repairing her sails (in combat!) from 60-70% to full up to 10 times in 1h30’ battle.

One hull repair (with a kit on board) per battle, one for sails (meaning changing the holed sails) and no repairs (in combat) for eventual (utmost rare) lost masts.

And 1 crew recovery per battle.

 

Outside battle, if some extra kits on board, someone can repair but on a cooldown (10min? more?): simply ridicolous seeing ppl exiting the battle badly crippled and attacking him again fulled.

If on draght, a ship should be able to use repair kits without cooldown like the Surprise in the movie to be clear. So hidden in a small bay to repair will have some sense.

Even if I'm often boarding, I'd say: make impossible to refull crew at sea with total crew available. Simply recover 50% for example at the end of the battle (recovered wounded and shocked/panicked).

 

This will give more sense to operating close or not to a base - as historical and realistic - with a great edge being close to a friendly port and an huge problem being very afar.

This will end the kiting/demast crap game at the moment where a single expert can win even 1v5 1v10.

You can be the best captain, on the best ship with best crew… still against such odds of similar sized ships you can only run or die: matter only of time and how many will you sink… still you’ll die.

 

And this will partly solve the widening gap between newer players, or more casual, missing cash, good, books to have super ships, facing Star Destroyers lead by Adm.Togo.

If you’re good on a good ship you should beat 2-3 inferior enemies… but over some ratios, you’ll die.

 

Finally: PVP marks. Reduce necessity for them to be less subpar over experts. Only small extra bonuses and paints or flags.

You are a veteran and a good one? You dont need to have super bonuses other will spend months to farm nor you dont need to be able to super gear your ship to beat less expert: you are better.

And do not cry “I spent 1 year farming”. In all successful games, something extremely rare today becomes usually common in one year worth of patches. Use new patches to add new small perks so vets will keep a slight edge still with high costs to farm/buy.

BECAUSE THIS ALLOW THE GAME TO ATTRACT AND RETAIN NEW PLAYERS.

 

See...Now this is constructive critisism... That is the way to gripe!:) This I,ll applaud!

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On 15.1.2018 at 8:07 AM, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

1.) Well the Wind could sometimes (e.g. every 10-15 minutes for 1-2 minutes) change turning direction, it also could simply change its rotation speed. It also could change intensity (if possible).But well, we're used to it as it is

2.) Heel ist great as it is now, maybe more different ballasts upgrade could help further customization

3.) leeway is fine now

4.) turnrates are a bit low now. Maybe for realism, but it is a bit less fun

5.) some have become real bricks...

6.) still a pain

7.) downwind turning seems to fit the rest

 

 

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Wind moves far to much. I agree with the sentiment of general wind direction in a fight with minor changes in overall direction. From real life experience, over a 12 hour period wind doesn't change from its overall direction more than 90 degrees unless a storm rolls in or your going in close to land early in the morning etc etc.

My suggestions for wind:
1: Bring back storms. A storm rolling in would cause massive wind change and would also be nice to see up to double wind strength making you actually fight against the weather to keep sailing in battle. Not suggesting this become a frequent occurrence but 1 in 10 battles has a chance of storm would be amazing.

2: Keep the wind changes small in a typical battle. If the winds South at the start it cant vary more than South West/South East for example. Reality of wind is it doesn't change much over the course of a day unless there's a storm rolling in.

3: More frequent wind changes. Lifters and headers. A nice addition could be the random minor blows you get whilst sailing. The sudden immediate minor change in wind direction hence the name lifters and headers. A header being when close hauled and the wind suddenly blows around dead on to the bow for a brief second or two causing you to bare away to not lose speed. Lifters being when the wind turns around to the beam when close hauled causing a freak amount of leeway lifting the bow away from where your point of sail allowing you to cut harder into the wind to gain speed. Sailing terms aside small occasional blows like this could make it really interesting and keep people on there toes.

4: Variable wind strength. Gusts and holes. Changes in wind strength over a battle seems more likely than a massive change in direction. Be nice to see some variable wind strengths in battles. Wind strength is something that can change fairly quickly on open seas and typically doesn't lead to a change of direction. We got all the differing levels of sail for our ships why not give us more reason to use them? Having to sail at 40% sails in a storm would be the shit. Chances of losing the top gallants due to pushing her to hard would be amazing.

Anyway well aware these are probably unrealistic suggestions but hey ho just spitballing here  :) At the very least it be nice to get storm battles back in some form in the future. There missed greatly. oh and a reduction in wind change amount either the frequency or the amount it changes.

 

Edited by Capt Jubal Early
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