In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.

[Farrago]

In OW, the 4 knot speed of many ships when close hauled is mindnumbing.

The skating on ice feel might be just an impression of how it looks graphically rather than what's happening.

In a game where looting ships is important, someone needs to instruct AI Captains that when they are in trouble, turning upwind is not a helpful tactic. It's now too often impossible to get to a wreck. It doesn't have to be automatic, but ability to loot needs to revert to a percentage chance similar to before the new sail mechanics.

[DeRuyter]

Wind changes

IRL you can see minor wind shifts fairly often, in particular near land. But those would be small back and forth shifts 10-20 degrees or so. The wind can also shift dramatically such as when a land breeze gradually turns into a sea breeze, but that change could take a number of hours. You also can have steady wind with no shifts over the course of an entire battle.

Basically small wind shifts are fine but large change in direction should be rare in the scope of a battle instance.

 @admin Speaking of wind - variable wind speed and weather conditions would help with ship differences.

Not sure if Wasa discussion is OT here but - Just make Wasa a 3rd rate as she was, in particular armed with 32pdrs,  and adjust BR accordingly.

IMO should be a good reason to change a ships stats not because someone is unhappy their favorite ship sails differently now. Similarly even ships in the same class had differences and shouldn't be balanced for balance sake.  BR changes should factor in as well.

[maturin]

Quote

IRL you can see minor wind shifts fairly often, in particular near land. But those would be small back and forth shifts 10-20 degrees or so. The wind can also shift dramatically such as when a land breeze gradually turns into a sea breeze, but that change could take a number of hours. You also can have steady wind with no shifts over the course of an entire battle.

+100500

[jodgi]

Fighting for wind only to see my work wasted after a set amount of time due to big and random wind changes makes me very sad. Go with @DeRuyter's suggestion for both gameplay and realism reasons.

Captains had some form of barometers, right? Combine that with local experience, general weather experience and whatever meteorological training they had and they could largely foresee changes in wind. I dare say they were more often right than taken by surprise. Ask anyone with formal meteorological education.

btw. I've cashed in on lucky random and big wind changes as well. Two Mercs would've gotten away from my trinco had it not been for the wind lottery. I'm sure some people like that. I don't.

[Amihai]

У меня горит. Уходил от ганга, отыграл ветер в бейдвинд по капельке, по граммулечке, за счет сейл-профайла. Меня задерживают только ядра на излете, я все сделал правильно и они вот-вот должны перестать долетать. Тут **** и я уже не на ветре, со всеми вытекающими. Какого лешего-то, а? Давайте на пробитие еще бросок костей добавим, будет вообще веселуха. Не должен ни кто тонуть из-за того, что сервер решил поменять ветер. Сейл профайлы, в которых кто-то долго и старательно двигал ползуночки можно выкинуть, они больше ни к чему.

[maturin]

1 hour ago, Amihai said:

У меня горит. Уходил от ганга, отыграл ветер в бейдвинд по капельке, по граммулечке, за счет сейл-профайла. Меня задерживают только ядра на излете, я все сделал правильно и они вот-вот должны перестать долетать. Тут **** и я уже не на ветре, со всеми вытекающими. Какого лешего-то, а? Давайте на пробитие еще бросок костей добавим, будет вообще веселуха. Не должен ни кто тонуть из-за того, что сервер решил поменять ветер. Сейл профайлы, в которых кто-то долго и старательно двигал ползуночки можно выкинуть, они больше ни к чему.

Что-то в этом есть.

Плаваешь на Сурпризе, и больше нельзя сбежать от ганга если ветер дует справа, а только если дует слева.

Это фича не имеет никакое отношение к движению ветра со всей его непредсказуемостью в реальности.

 

[maturin]

On 1/15/2018 at 2:07 AM, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

1. wind changes
2. heel
3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
5. speed curves and ship difference
6. tacking time
7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

1. All wind changes must be RANDOM. Predictable wind changes are much, much worse than no wind change at all. Large wind changes are fine, if they are rare.

2. Maximum heel should be at 70-80 degrees to the wind, not 90.

3. We could use sideforce for the masts and hulls.

5. Now that we have Wasa, the nerfs to Constutition are just unfair. Make her as fast as Trinco with decent turning. Endymion needs a scripted speed penalty when she carries 24-pounders. Wasa should be cut down to 18 pounders on the upper deck.

Nerf the new mods. No more speedcapping 4th Rates.

[John Sheppard]

i think that leeway is currently too much especially on larger lineships 

i do not believe that a ship with a length of 60 meters can achieve a sideways speed of 4 knots in reality without breaking apart .

if the sails can indeed apply so much power without ripping the masts off pushing the ship sideways against a mass of water 60x8 meters then they should be able to push the ship forward at over 15 knots (due to much smaller mass of water in front of the ship and the fact that the shape of the hull is optimized for forwards motion not sideways) 

so there must be something wrong in the calculations here either the mass-inertia of the ship, the draught (submerged part of the hull) or the mass of water that needs to be pushed to the side to make such a sideways motion possible is not being taken into consideration

i'm perfectly fine with smaller ships like snow-rattlesnakes being able to sail sideways at those speeds due to the large proportion of their sails compared to their weight and size but lineships should be far more stable 

in reality if there was such a strong wind acting on the side of the ship i imagine it would force the ship to heel a lot instead of pushing it sideways , not at those speeds anyways

perhaps you could make the ships with large height to length ratio heel more and even force us to fold the topsail sheets in 90 degree winds or more?

 

edit : apologies if some of this doesn't make sense english is not my 1st language

Edited January 19, 2018 by John Sheppard

[Ahoy H.R. Matey]

The only things I'd like to ask for, please and thank you:

1. Revert the OW sailing model to how it used to be pre-patch, OW sailing is straight up painful now.

2. Buff Constitution's turn and reclass it as 5th rate.

3. Put rare books on sale in the Admiralty.

[van Veen]

OW sailing is better now. The need to tack almost 90° to be able to beat against the wind in OW is just fantastic! Don't listen to those landlubbers who just don't understand this! 

Turning inertia also feels very good!

But some points should be fine tuned:

1. The tacking capability of the pirate frigate is extremely bad right now compared to other 5th rates. Sailing profile is also pretty bad leaving this ship unsailable. 
2. The Wasa seems too fast in general compared to other 4th rates at the moment. 
3. Leeway is great! Love it! BUT it is too strong. Some points to start with:
   1. It seems like the leeway force is constant from the side. The position of the sails is not considered sufficiently. On a broad reach there should be no detectable leeway. On a beam reach leeway should be ~1° (close to non-existing). Close-hauled should be ~5° (max. 10°).
   2. It seems like ship speed does not affect the leeway as it should do. Increasing ship speed increases keel lift towards windward and therefore reduces leeway

On 19.1.2018 at 12:03 PM, John Sheppard said:

i think that leeway is currently too much

With this, I agree. The rest of your post contains a lot of nonsense though. 

[van Veen]

Rudder efficiency when sailing backward is unrealistically high. Long keeled ships are hardly affected at all by the rudder position when drifting or motoring backwards. But I can understand if you want to keep it for the gameplay. 

[Sparkydog]

Someone correct me if i am wrong- but if a ships rudder was shot away, wouldn't the ship bows start drifting down wind? Currently, the ship continues moving straight ahead, irregardless of the wind direction.  

[maturin]

1 hour ago, Sparkydog said:

Someone correct me if i am wrong- but if a ships rudder was shot away, wouldn't the ship bows start drifting down wind? Currently, the ship continues moving straight ahead, irregardless of the wind direction.  

Most ships would turn into the wind in absence of rudder input, but this is effective by the trim of the sails.

In the game a destroyed rudder sticks in place, so any ongoing turn will continue.

[John Sheppard]

6 hours ago, van Veen said:

OW sailing is better now. The need to tack almost 90° to be able to beat against the wind in OW is just fantastic! Don't listen to those landlubbers who just don't understand this! 

Turning inertia also feels very good!

But some points should be fine tuned:

1. The tacking capability of the pirate frigate is extremely bad right now compared to other 5th rates. Sailing profile is also pretty bad leaving this ship unsailable. 
2. The Wasa seems too fast in general compared to other 4th rates at the moment. 
3. Leeway is great! Love it! BUT it is too strong. Some points to start with:
   1. It seems like the leeway force is constant from the side. The position of the sails is not considered sufficiently. On a broad reach there should be no detectable leeway. On a beam reach leeway should be ~1° (close to non-existing). Close-hauled should be ~5° (max. 10°).
   2. It seems like ship speed does not affect the leeway as it should do. Increasing ship speed increases keel lift towards windward and therefore reduces leeway

With this, I agree. The rest of your post contains a lot of nonsense though. 

if you are talking about the little degrees number we see left from the ship icon in the compass then i think you are confusing leeway with heel (unless i'm miss-reading something)

leeway is when you point your ship to 90 degrees on the compass for example but it travels to 80 coz of the sideways motion

heel is the wind pushing the side of your ship making your guns on the windward side point to the sky and the guns on the other side point in water 

Edited January 22, 2018 by John Sheppard

[Saint George]

Currently most ships in the game cannot be turned through the wind without ending up in reverse no matter what you do. The exception being the really light wood builds. At the same time most of them transition from forward to reverse instantly and accelerate in reverse at a rate equal to or faster than they do forward. This shouldn't happen due to hull design and the hydraulic forces applied to the hull by the water. It seems the force being applied to yard sails and stays is way out of realistic proportions. Consider that sails on yards would not generate the same force when catching the wind from the front as the do when catching it from the rear, since they become folded around the mast and lose effectiveness when the wind is from front.

Otherwise the game seems to be on the right track with respect to sailing profiles.

With regard to turning, the size of the rudder in relation to the ship length and mass below water generally is the primary factor affecting turn rate. However angling of the yards can have a significant affect depending on mast position. Some ships had there main mast positioned further astern to aid in turning. However the changes seem to not model this on ships that have a more aft placement of the main mast.

Demasting has become far too easy. Consider that in reality most mast hits with round shot would result in a ricochet off the mast if the shot did not hit the mast square on.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Dauntless7_Original

[Saint George]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:55 AM, Otto Kohl said:

Please look into Bucentaur's stern. There is something wrong with its stern hp. It feels really tanky and not taking damage properly. 

Bucentaure stern has always seemed overly fragile to me. Takes crew losses thru stern like no other ship.

[admin]

On 15.01.2018 at 5:32 PM, H2O said:

From this we can come up with a conclusion that Turn Rates on all ships are broken and they need to be increased to return that Fun feeling.

I dont know if it is true. 
I feel like turn rates are still excessive and ships turn too much and too fast.

 

On 18.01.2018 at 12:26 AM, maturin said:

Что-то в этом есть.

Плаваешь на Сурпризе, и больше нельзя сбежать от ганга если ветер дует справа, а только если дует слева.

Это фича не имеет никакое отношение к движению ветра со всей его непредсказуемостью в реальности.

 

ветер может измениться как вправо так и влево

 

44 minutes ago, Dauntless7_Original said:

Currently most ships in the game cannot be turned through the wind without ending up in reverse no matter what you do. The exception being the really light wood builds. At the same time most of them transition from forward to reverse instantly and accelerate in reverse at a rate equal to or faster than they do forward. This shouldn't happen due to hull design and the hydraulic forces applied to the hull by the water.

no ship (except for very light ones) could tack without sternway (backward movement) - 1 hull backward movement (length of 1 hull) should be considered an awesome tacking capability. most ships tacked going 2-3 hull lengths backwards

 

On 17.01.2018 at 12:17 PM, jodgi said:

Two Mercs would've gotten away from my trinco had it not been for the wind lottery. I'm sure some people like that. I don't.

Those two mercs of course are not posting on the forums and are probably happy. But we have heard from many active players who (being unhappy about wind changes) noted that they stopped sailing lightly built ships at all as wind changes reduces chances to get away against fleets with mixed profiles forcing them to fight (which is good)

[Odol]

1 minute ago, admin said:

I dont know if it is true. 
I feel like turn rates are still excessive and ships turn too much and too fast.

I agree.  With the fact that ships feel like they turn WAY to fast.  More so on the bigger ships.   I understand they are war ships and shouldnt be immobile but some of them turn better than a modern day schooner. 

 

But honestly I can deal with mobility, it is the cannon accuracy that bothers me.   Cannons are way to accurate.

[Odol]

Speaking of lightly built ships, where is the Rattlesnake?

[H2O]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

I don't know if it is true. 
I feel like turn rates are still excessive and ships turn too much and too fast.

 

 

Really? Pre new sailing model patch was the best gameplay experience ever, but you know better. Now you made light frigates the only usable ships in game. Good work. All my fav ships are pos now. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by H2O

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Odol said:

Speaking of lightly built ships, where is the Rattlesnake?

can get it from epic event's chests, same as cecilia.. Shame, beautiful ship  

[admin]

4 minutes ago, H2O said:

Really? Pre new sailing model patch was the best gameplay experience ever, but you know better. Now you made light frigates the only usable ships in game. Good work. All my fav ships are pos now. 

All ships turn better after the sailing model rework - all ships turn rates were increased from slight increases to somewhat significant increases and yard power was also increased (depending on the ships). 
 

[Havelock]

14 minutes ago, admin said:

But we have heard from many active players who (being unhappy about wind changes) noted that they stopped sailing lightly built ships at all as wind changes reduces chances to get away against fleets with mixed profiles forcing them to fight (which is good)

 

Why is this good? As i read it youre saying "ganking someone 5v1 is good content". Ive been sunk 2 times this week by a mixed fleet of at least 4 ships because a windturn changed my position from upwind to downwind. I usually sail in heavy ships looking for underdog fights but thinking about switching to lighter ships because i hate getting ganked, so for me its the other way around!

[admin]

1 minute ago, Havelock said:

 

Why is this good? As i read it youre saying "ganking someone 5v1 is good content". Ive been sunk 2 times this week by a mixed fleet of at least 4 ships because a windturn changed my position from upwind to downwind. I usually sail in heavy ships looking for underdog fights but thinking about switching to lighter ships because i hate getting ganked, so for me its the other way around!

I do not know what you read as we have not said what you wrote. Please avoid presenting your assumptions as our statements - better quote.
 

[Bragan Benigaris]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

All ships turn better after the sailing model rework - all ships turn rates were increased from slight increases to somewhat significant increases and yard power was also increased (depending on the ships). 
 

All ships? The Constitution is currently at around  2.5 and short before the rework she was raised to 3.05 turn rate (maybe op). With this exception, yes all ships are turn buffed.