In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.

[Havelock]

Just thougt of something: Sailing profile of the Santa Cecilia is utter trash. I guess you didnt pay much attention to it in the recent patches.

I understand if you dont want her to be overpowered since shes so exclusive, but she should have a nice twist to make her desirable.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Havelock

[Malachi]

@Jorge

There were more, of course. But just one would have been enough to make your initial statement invalid. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Malachi

[Vernon Merrill]

6 minutes ago, Jorge said:

3 in 200 years... Awesome. 

So what you're saying is that imaginary pixel 1st rate you are going to be sailing around in should have a "I Win" button?  

Or that only ships of the same rate can fight each other in the OW?

Sounds like a fun game.

Much like in sports, the player talent usually has a bigger factor in success than does the equipment, no?  The difference is, in real life, navies would rarely, if ever, put complete idiots in command of the kings property.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Vernon Merrill

[Jorge]

15 minutes ago, Malachi said:

@Jorge

There were more, of course. But just one would have been enough to make your initial statement invalid. 

What is invalid is your premise, if in more than 200 years it has only happened on very few occasions.

 

16 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So what you're saying is that imaginary pixel 1st rate you are going to be sailing around in should have a "I Win" button?  

Or that only ships of the same rate can fight each other in the OW?

Sounds like a fun game.

Much like in sports, the player talent usually has a bigger factor in success than does the equipment, no?  The difference is, in real life, navies would rarely, if ever, put complete idiots in command of the kings property.

No, of course not. But neither does the one that uses a frigate have to have an advantage simply by using that type of boat. I guess balancing the game is paramount. Obviously, no one expects band to band with a surprise to sink a victory.

And as for the captain, you're right but here are talking about some of the best players I've seen in the game and I do not think they need to make it easier to sink less experienced players even if they use more powerful boats.

[Challenge]

9 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

1. wind changes
2. heel
3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
5. speed curves and ship difference
6. tacking time
7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

1. Accurate prevailing wind directions for bot OW and Combat. The wind "clock" really is an immersion breaker since I know how the wind patterns actually are in the Caribbean. Of course players will then complain it isn't "balanced".

2. Heel seems to be a bit much in all the square riggers I've used in game. In addition, while the inability to depress guns far enough to compensate for the windward side is realistic, the ability to elevate the guns enough to compensate on the lee side no matter how far over you're heeled is more than was actually possible.

3. Leeway seems a little too high on most of the square-rigged ships I've used. Everyone of them end up backing sails while tacking and that just isn't the way they work when properly trimmed and handled. Using manual sails correctly during a tack does nothing to alleviate the issue, and done correctly, it should. As an aside to this, some of the ships seem to turn faster when backing sails than they do moving forward... odd sort of thing. Also, if we need to make rudder corrections to sail in a straight line, how about putting in incremental rudder control so I can adjust my heading for leeway without having to keep pushing the helm over every few seconds -- you know, like it is in RL.

4. I'm not sure if the poor handling I've seen since the last changes are due to the Turn Rates, or the Turn Acceleration Rates. The Indefatigable, which has been my main 5th Rate since the wipe, Wears around well if the turn is long enough to get up to turn speed. For anything less than about 120 degrees, however, it feels like it's wallowing. Still, I've been able to dance around Constitutions with it, so I think the Connie may need to be revisited as well.

5. Ship differences are easier to assess than the curves and they are adequate for the most part. The Surprise is quicker than the Indef (and mine is made of woods giving some speed and acceleration bonuses). Turns better and seems to sail better a bit closer to the wind than it's big cousin. On the other hand the Mercury, which was quite sweet in most respects until the last change, has become a barge. It's reputation IRL was built on being able to survive against multiple opponents and much of that came from is sailing capabilities. I guess the differences are about what I would expect, but there are some that seem a bit off.

6. I think I cover this in 3 above. The first thing I thought of that caused issues with this was the leeway, but the physics changes probably helped.

7. As I said in number 4, turning seems to work okay while wearing around, once I get the ships up to speed. There may also be a bit too much drag causing the rate to go down more than I would have expected.

Thanks for the opportunity to give some feed back on the sailing models. For the most part I feel leeway was needed but a little over done; the physics changes have drastically changed the handling on some of the ships, but not so much on others and the larger the ship (except for the Mercury) the more the handling seems to drop... although I would expect that.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Challenge

[Malachi]

1 hour ago, Jorge said:

What is invalid is your premise, if in more than 200 years it has only happened on very few occasions.

That´s ridiculous.

You said that frigates didn´t fight against ships of the line. That statement was false, pure and simple.

By the way, if you knew a bit about naval history, then you would´ve noticed that my examples more or less just covered a 25-year span, I'll let you figure out which one, I´m done with this conversation. And to quote myself:

Quote

There were more, of course.

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Malachi

[Doug Maoz]

I like all the new sailing models for the most part. It feels like most ships have more of a role now (with a few exceptions).

1. Pirate Frigate - I know the hull shape is short and fat, but it is really slow compared to every other 5th rate. It used to be good for its sail profile, gun loadout, turn rate, and have OK speed. Now it has OK comparative turnrate, bad speed, and a mediocre sail profile (gun loadout is still good at least). I think it should either get a much better sail profile, or a higher base speed. They are never seen these days because they are sluggish and don't turn as well comparatively anymore.
2. Connie - Needs a little better base turn rate, it turns OK when you have sail force, but once you lose any turning  it's completely awful.
3. 3rd rate - There should be a reason (besides slightly lesser costs) to sail a 3rd rate. It is good that it gets 32lbs on the main gundeck now, but it still moves like a fat adult with the attack power of a child.
   1. Speed boost?
   2. Equal HP to Bellona?
   3. Mortar on top deck?!?
4. Agamemnon - Is it supposed to completely not move upwind? I don't see this ship getting any play unless it can go upwind a little bit. Right now it is worse than everything in the game.
5. Endymion - Is it too good? I like it myself, but its sail profile is far and away the best in game, especially given its gun loadout. A lower base speed, or slightly less good sail profile may be in order.
6. Wasa - many people have already spoken to this. I would like to add it HAS been nerfed: the base speed is now terrible at 12knts, and it lees something awful. That being said, here are my proposed fixes given it is still the port battle queen...
   1. Classify it as a 3rd rate - It should not get the ship knowledge bonuses of a 4th rate; currently it gets more marines than a Bellona with 100 less crew.
   2. Remove crew to bring it in line with other 4th rates (500 at most). 32s and 24s are much harder to load with less crew; and/or...
   3. Change the 2nd deck from 24 to 18lb cannons.
   4. Needs higher BR - this is non-negotiable unless ALL of the previous fixes are applied. Given the crew count and gun type, its BR is far far too low.

Overall, I am also looking forward to the BR rebalance (Indefatigable != Wasa).

[Guest]

2 hours ago, H2O said:

From this we can come up with a conclusion that Turn Rates on all ships are broken and they need to be increased to return that Fun feeling. I think boosting 1-2 ships will not change anything. I really liked 1st patch when new sailing was introduced, all the changes after that destroyed that fun sailing part for me.

Once again, if ships had passive bonuses on each ship turn rates would not be that big of a problem .

False. We are at a good place with turning, there are just a few ships that need to be tuned. 

I suggested 1 turn rate buff, 1 turn rate nerf, and the rudder HP or hit box on a 3rd ship adjusted. Clearly you didn't read my post. 

[Guest]

I think its important to remember something when discussing wind dynamics and if they work or dont work - especially with what players are calling "high heel" ships. In this game, the Devs have done a great job providing us with interesting and fun wind dynamics. Many people have an experience of "Oh my god the heel is awful. I cant get my guns down. The wind is too much". And then there are those that have the experience of "My guns point at the water, even when I depower. The wind is too much.  --- The heel on this ship needs fixing!" --- If you fall in these  categories, you have probably been frustrated a time or two. While the ship build and upgrades can help, part of the solution is in learning to sail a "Tactical angle". You learn what direction to sail, depending on the wind, that gives your cannons a shot. THAT ANGLE, becomes your tactical point of sail. If you constantly try to set up a pass while traveling at your "tactical angle" you will virtually always get guns on target. Then, after the shot, you can turn at high heeling angles. If you dont learn to do this, and you try to attack leeward (hiding your hull) - you may find an experienced player firing Grape directly into your deck. The point is --- when you consider wind dynamic changes, make sure you factor in your tactical angles and any changes on them. It may not be the wind or the ship...it may be the Captain. I had to consider that about myself too... Just food for thought

[Greysteak]

1. Wind:  I like the changing winds in battle but I feel the rate of change is much too high.  Part of the fun of battles is fighting for the wind but the rapid wind change eliminates that as a viable tactic as the game just does it for you.

 

[Sea Fox]

11 hours ago, Otto Kohl said:

Please finally nerf that god damn Wasa.

I Second

[Fenris]

1.Agamemnon : Pls increase upwind sailing ability, and slightly the upwind tacking. This was a great ship before it got ruined.

2. Wasa : Needs to be slightly slower generally, increase the BR of her. Lot of complains on her behalf.Nerf, but do not ruin her like Agamemnon.

3. Offtopic : Nerf Cartagena Caulking Refit and Navy Structure Refit 50 %. Thickness issue solved, even when they get stacked.

[Hethwill]

Did anyone read the opening post ?

I mean, it its complete meaning and subject ? at all ?

[H2O]

22 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

False. We are at a good place with turning, there are just a few ships that need to be tuned. 

I suggested 1 turn rate buff, 1 turn rate nerf, and the rudder HP or hit box on a 3rd ship adjusted. Clearly you didn't read my post. 

I do, but I also apply my game experience. All Turn rates close haul and into the wind must be boosted the rest I don't care that much. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by H2O

[H2O]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Did anyone read the opening post ?

I mean, it its complete meaning and subject ? at all ?

We are in 2018 who the hell has time to read posts? Tell me:)

[Eyesore]

1. wind changes: too fast, arc is too wide (perhaps make the wind move continuesly (like a pendulum?)(it can move 30degrees in 10 minutes?, next movement might be another 30degrees in the same direction or the other way?, not at intervals
2. heel: feels ok (have not sailed all ships), some ships should have more (troublesome?) heel
3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences: leeway seems ok, there is a difference per ship (perhaps not always that much, but that's probably how it should be, some should perhaps almost be unsailable (perhaps they would actually need that 'keel-upgrade')?) , shipdifferences : there are differences, perhaps not enough? (don't take my word on this :-) )
4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both): seem ok, sometimes it feels weird (it's not a fluid motion, not sure if it is lag or something else)(watch youtube at double speed and look at the wake, it is not a 'natural' curve? (maybe it is just the graphics that are a bit off???) The bow doesn't seem to cut through the water?)
5. speed curves and ship difference: it maybe feels that sailing badly punishes you more in terms of speed and manouverability (which is good i would say), going upwind is difficult (depending on the ship used)(it feels like you can take more advantage of sailingerrors, or perhaps even setup your opponent to make a mistake)(perhaps on some ships we should relearn on how to sail them efficiently???); shipdifferences : it all needs rebalancing
6. tacking time : you lose almost all speed, very early, the momentum doesn't seem to carry you very long? I'm ok with some ships that need some backing up to perform a tack (the bigger they are, the slower they should tack, right?)
7. downwind turning time: seems ok, and is rather controlable (high speed: wide curve, low speed: tight(er) curve)

 

Perhaps some (perceived) problemships might need to be 'rediscovered', use different setups than we used to (e.g. maybe they actually benefit from a jibbonus, or quite the opposite), find their new qualities and strengths and weaknesses, sail them differently than what we have become used to?

Edited January 15, 2018 by Eyesore

[Landsman]

13 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Le Gros Refit is quite usless

Yes, agree. Please buff it... @admin

[William Death]

Here are my suggestions.

1. wind changes
   1. Slow it down (a slow shift over time) and make them less dramatic (wind should shift a maximum of 45* from the starting wind over the course of an entire battle. That is, it should move a maximum of 45* either way from where it started: It might slowly shift right 45*, then slowly shift left 90*, bringing it to 45* left of where it started. Then it might move 30* right, and then 15* left. And so on...
2. heel
   1. It seems alright, I would say that heel-reducing modules (like optimized ballast) need to have a clearer indication of what they actually do. Is it 7% less roll, meaning 7% less than 10*? Or is it calculated some other way? If it is done the first way, the module seems useless to reduce roll: 7% off of a 10* roll would barely be noticeable.
3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
   1. I feel that leeway is balanced between most ships, but maybe a tiny bit too much overall? Tune it down, just a little bit.
4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
   1. Constitution needs a buff. Turn rate is way too low.
   2. L'Hermione could use a small turn rate buff, it is currently only .01 more than the Trincomalee. Maybe increase it by .1-.2.
5. speed curves and ship difference
   1. Ingermanland needs a slightly better upwind performance in battle. I think that there is a bug in open world, my Ingermanland seems to drop to 4.0kn when sailing upwind (maybe around 30* to the wind it happens, and it stays at 4.0kn all the way, even straight into the wind). Please have a look at the OW sailing profile for this ship.
   2. Do something for the Le Gros Ventre Refit. I paid 50 PvP marks for mine, and I feel like I've been cheated. I know the players who spent 150 for theirs must feel even more cheated by it now. It is absolutely horrible. The swivel guns are worthless for anything but stern-rakes. We should be able to load other types of ammunition in them, besides just ball. Please buff the sailing profile to make it better upwind, and allow us to unlock all 5 slots on it. Maybe a small (.10) turn-rate increase wouldn't be bad either.
   3. L'Hermione needs a better sailing profile. Look at the following sailing profile chart. Why sail L'Hermione when I could sail the much more powerful Indefatigable with basically the same (or slightly better) sailing profile? It doesn't cost PvP marks either. I've included the Endymion's sailing profile, which is closer to what the L'Hermione's should look like. Do not make them exactly the same, but the upwind performance of L'Hermione should be better than what it currently is. Buff the thickness by 2 (from 58 to 60) and maybe give it 75-100 more HP than it currently has. 
   4. Release the Hermione/Santa Cecilia to the market. We need more 12pd frigates, and we need to test the balance between the frigates. I can understand wanting to have a special gift ship, so maybe keep the "Santa Cecilia" on as a paint scheme for the Hermione, or as a separate developer-gift that comes already fully unlocked. From what I've read, Santa Cecilia/Hermione will need some buffing to balance it. The sailing profile I think is rather poor for it, and I've heard the sail HP is very low.
   5. Third Rate ship buff. I like that you gave it 32pdrs on the lower deck. Still, I don't see a reason to sail it over the Bellona. I'd suggest you give the option to have it be a carronade loadout ship: 42/42/32pd carronades would be pretty cool. Lots of damage up close, but not too good at range. Of course it would still have the option for 32/18/9pd  longs. If you do this, it also needs an HP and thickness buff to make it the same stats as the Bellona.
   6. Pavel: bring back the Pavel's speed. You have it slower than the Bucentaure right now. That was one of its main advantages for me and many others who sailed the Pavel. The old speed you had for it, 11.99 kn (if I remember that correctly), seemed quite balanced against the slower but more powerful Bucentaure.
   7. Victory needs a little bit of a sailing profile buff upwind. It used to be the best upwind, now it has no noticeable advantage over any of the other first rates in terms of sailing profile.
6. tacking time
   1. Ingermanland needs some buffing here. I know it is not, and should not be the best upwind sailor, but it is fairly sluggish through the tacks. Give it a small buff.
   2. The Le Gros Ventre Refit needs a major buff here. As I mentioned earlier, it needs to be faster upwind, but should also tack much better than it currently does.
7. downwind turning time
   1. Seems alright on the ships I've tested.

Things you didn't mention but should be adjusted:

1. BR Rebalance. Please, we need this. This will help a lot with the second point
2. Wasa nerf. You've nerfed it some, but having it the same BR as other 4th rates means it will still be the pretty much the only 4th rate seen in port battles. A BR increase would be good. I'd also suggest nerfing HP on it some.
3. First Rate thickness rebalance: Hulls of 1st rates are too thick. I would suggest nerfing the thickness by 5cm, and eliminate stacking of Cartagena and Navy Hull Refit.
4. Demasting rebalance: please nerf mast thickness, but increase mast HP. Once you've done this, you can then fine-tune demasting by increasing or decreasing HP. I would say the thickness of a mast should be such so that the largest-caliber gun the ship carries can penetrate it out to 500m with regular ball shot. Start there, and make minor adjustments as needed. Currently, you have masts that are very thick, but with very low HP. This means that masts are hard to penetrate, but easy to snap if your cannons can penetrate them. It should be the other way around: you can penetrate the masts of a frigate with any size cannon, but it will take ages to make it fall with 6pdrs, or relatively quick to make it fall with 24pdrs. You have a good system with making the upper masts thinner and with less HP: easier to demast than the lower sections. Please keep that system. To clarify this point: I'm not suggesting we have paper masts that fall if you look at them wrong; instead, we need masts that take a while to fall, but will eventually yield to sustained fire. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by William Death
To clarify my opinion of wind shifts.

[Landsman]

24 minutes ago, William Death said:

Do something for the Le Gros Ventre Refit. I paid 50 PvP marks for mine, and I feel like I've been cheated. I know the players who spent 150 for theirs must feel even more cheated by it now. It is absolutely horrible. The swivel guns are worthless for anything but stern-rakes. We should be able to load other types of ammunition in them, besides just ball.

Pretty much this. Also heel and leeway seem over the top...

24 minutes ago, William Death said:

Please buff the sailing profile to make it better upwind, and allow us to unlock all 5 slots on it.

Agreed. Since the rework I haven't seen any decent PvP player sail it... should be a hint? For almost the price of a Wasa, it should have at least 5 slots and a better profile. We have a broken 4th rate with the broadside weight of a 3rd but this raider LGV with 9pd cannons and a broadside weight of a niagara can't get some love? 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Landsman

[Rouleur]

General leeway:

Overall its pretty good.

The sliding on ice effect is too extreme - when it happens it also feels like the ship has stalled very fast (like a plane would) so a small change would be good.

Wind change - the odds should be mostly for small changes 5- 25 degree, lower odds for 15-40 degree change with a small chance of 45-90 degree plus and complete reversal rare. When wind does change the speed of change probably needs some thought - also odds based - mostly modest change speeds but occassionally violent.

Graphics tweaks may help to make reduce the feel of leeway (sliding on ice) as well.

Wrecks don't drift at all - they should be impacted by leeway as well although at lower speed due to lack of canvass and weight of water - reducing the drift the lower the wreck goes. Slowing down the time between a ship being sunk and disappearing below the waves will help the looting - again some variability in the submerging rate should occur - maybe overall damage related.

Ship sailing profile:

Victory should be the best sailing first rate and better upwind than the others.

Ship BR:

There is no reason that ships in same class need to have the same BR at all. 

Wasa is OP - needs higher BR than Aggy:, 3rd Rate - lower BR than Bellona etc. Will help with PB variance.

Marines:

All warships should have some marines related to total crew count which don't impact on sailing and gun loading performance etc. The mod should be extra marines and these should reduce performance as now - trying to avoid a smaller ship vastly outnumbering the marines count of a large one and overwhelming a much larger crew too easily. Can't see why lower tier ships get higher percentages of marines for the mod - should be 10% across the board.  Grape should disproportionately kill more marines as they are by definition more exposed on the deck and ball at deck height/slightly above should do the same. 

Repairs:

The cool down needs to be longer and maybe the time spent in repars longer as well. Rum is massively OP - restoring the entire crew is sureal. 

 

[Corona Lisa]

Took a closer look at the wind changes yesterday. Its turning for 3 minutes for about 120°.

I think thats still too much and also unrealistic.

[Percival Merewether]

EDIT: Delete my post please - made by mistake.

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by NicklasK

[DevsGoFluckYourselves]

Kindly Delete This Account

Edited July 31, 2020 by KindlyDeleteThisAccount

[NethrosDefectus]

On 15/01/2018 at 8:01 AM, EliteDelta said:

Yes there is something happening here. Yesterday I had a moment where I stern raked a Bucentaure with a Bellona, had 32 hits (with medium guns, using normal ball shot) I killed 60 ish crew, took off almost 2 bars of structure, and yet I didn't damage the stern armour at all. The discord actually went pretty crazy laughing, because they thought I missed every shot, until they noticed the structure and crew. My thought was maybe the balls went through the windows..? But I've never seen that before. I know its possible with grape, but it seemed odd. 

We too have noticed this

[n_Ka]

Now we need the return of the storm in battle, with lightning who make some time fire on the sail !