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In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.

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15 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

I have a few suggestions concerning mostly other mechanics but one or two concerning wind and buffs/debuffs

1. Wasa as great of a ship it is needs something to be done to it to balance out its use. Right now for a fourth rate ship it out classes the majority of its fellow fourth class ships in almost every aspect and even if it does not out match an aspect such as speed or firepower of another fourth rate the wasa out matches that said fourth rate in all the other aspects. Not to mention it does need an adjustment to its battle rating. In port battles since there is only a slight difference between the Bellona, let's say, and the Wasa that people will choose the Wasa for its lower battle rating.

2. When going against the wind in open world it has become a struggle hitting 4 kn to even want to be traveling. It significantly increases the time you are out there in open waters just waiting for the wind to turn ever so slightly. Maybe just a few more knots would be alright in open world. In battles I am okay with it. So far I been loving the wind mechanics and feel like they are a breath of fresh breeze. 

3. Victory Marks. I play as Poland and going up against other nations such as Pirates and Great Britain you see a significant difference in the use of first rates. I personally do not think the permits and blueprints should be worth a victory mark but rather PvP Marks. Granted maybe make the instantly built ships worth an increased amount of Victory Marks and make the Wasa a craftable ship. Maybe make those Navy upgrades worth a victory mark with slight changes to the upgrades for instance but nothing significant to make them absolutely outstanding.

4. Port Battle Timers. I love the concept so please do not remove it. My suggestion though is increase the windows of time for setting up the port battles and for the port battles themselves. Possibly letting other people from different timezone participate in the grind and port battle itself because right now the timers either decide if an attacker can go after a certain port or if they just cannot attack it because that set time is out of their availability to play. Maybe because of work, sleep, school, or other real life responsibilities. So possibly broadening the port battle windows time frame might help alleviate some of those issues.

Edited by Davos Seasworth
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I think creative part of this forum is not active anymore. I see same request from the same people over and over again. Nerf Wasa , fix timers ,remove marks... etc.

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6 minutes ago, H2O said:

I think creative part of this forum is not active anymore. I see same request from the same people over and over again. Nerf Wasa , fix timers ,remove marks... etc.

We don't need creative ideas

We need to fix the current problems first. 

Edited by Stepp636
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7 minutes ago, H2O said:

I think creative part of this forum is not active anymore. I see same request from the same people over and over again. Nerf Wasa , fix timers ,remove marks... etc.

It's probably because people don't invent problems, just report existing ones. I guess that's a really useful feedback :) 

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8 hours ago, admin said:
  1. speed curves and ship difference

As for ship curves I don't know because I don't know where to look for them from official source. 

As for ship difference we need at least 3 types for each ship with significant bonuses:

-Regular - Default specs across all types of ships no bonuses. (CHEAP MAN OPTION)

-Naval Issue - Boosted specs in Reload, Armor and penetration. (TANK)

-Sleek Hull Build - Boosted Speed and Sailing characteristics, no bonuses to armor, reload or penetration. (SKIRM)

Now starting players can start with default ships, it's fine, but as they progress they can aim towards ships that fit their play style. If they play in heavy groups they can go with Naval Issue ships that are tougher and produce heavier punch, but are not maneuverable. They can also pick Sleek Hull build for maneuver and lack of firepover, but in large groups they can still be deadly. 

This would bring more colors to this game for sure. Also, Constitution is ruined. 

Edited by H2O

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8 minutes ago, vazco said:

It's probably because people don't invent problems, just report existing ones. I guess that's a really useful feedback :) 

Since Wasa was added and they keep reporting it, something must be really broken here. It has been a long time since. 

Edited by H2O

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To all those who ask the nerf to the thickness of the masts and the hull of the line ships it is seen that they want to sink or capture more powerful ships with the much cheaper frigates. While it can already be done, considering that any type of frigate far exceeds the maneuverability of a line ship, what do you expect? What do these big ships stop using?

It is true that NA is not a pure simulator, but what can not be is an arcade. In real life not a single frigate would come close to fighting a ship of line because of a single broadside would send it to the bottom.

Everything that has been said in this thread can be improved, but please do it with a head.

Edited: If you nerf SoLs, you must nerf frigates too. 

Edited by Jorge
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3 minutes ago, Jorge said:

In real life not a single frigate would come close to fighting a ship of line because of a single broadside would send it to the bottom.

Not true. 

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42 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

2. When going against the wind in open world it has become a struggle hitting 4 kn to even want to be traveling. It significantly increases the time you are out there in open waters just waiting for the wind to turn ever so slightly. Maybe just a few more knots would be alright in open world. In battles I am okay with it. So far I been loving the wind mechanics and feel like they are a breath of fresh breeze. 

Yes please

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7 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Constitution - Painful to sail. It has serious trouble dueling other 4th rates in terms of maneuverability, and doesn't stand a chance vs. most 5th rates. I think it needs a buff to turning, could be rudder, yards, or a mix of both. The profile and speed are fine, it just needs help with turning. 

Indefatigable - A good ship overall, but it is completely ruined by the strangely weak rudder. The rudder health isn't different from other 5th rates, but there is something incredibly bad about the rudder placement or hitbox. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but if you ever get stern raked, the rudder breaks. It is without a doubt the worst ship I have every sailed in terms of rudder health. I realize there are mods to help buff the rudder health, but they don't fix the problem. I have tested them. I think it is just too easy to hit the rudder when stern raking, and if this were adjusted, the indefatigable could actually become a useful ship in PvP again. 
Side note: Strangely, the Agamemnon does not seem to suffer from the same weak rudder, in my experience. 

Belle Poule - Needs a small turn rate nerf, I think. It is strange that it has a turn rate on par with the surprise, even though the BP is much longer. At the moment this very high turn rate is making the BP somewhat OP against similar ships, because the ability to angle, especially with the strong armour, makes it an exceptionally powerful 5th rate. I have a feeling many other hunters will not like me for saying this, but it is needed, in my opinion.
Base turn rate for BP is 4.23 (I think it should be closer to 3.5)
Base turn rate for Surprise is 4.11

That's all for now, I may think of more later. 

 


 

From this we can come up with a conclusion that Turn Rates on all ships are broken and they need to be increased to return that Fun feeling. I think boosting 1-2 ships will not change anything. I really liked 1st patch when new sailing was introduced, all the changes after that destroyed that fun sailing part for me.

Once again, if ships had passive bonuses on each ship turn rates would not be that big of a problem .

Edited by H2O

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from the top of my head: Randolph vs.Yarmouth, La Forte plus four other frigates vs two British 74s, Venus vs Rättisvan, Venus plus a 74 vs a turkish threedecker

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5 minutes ago, Malachi said:

from the top of my head: Randolph vs.Yarmouth, La Forte plus four other frigates vs two British 74s, Venus vs Rättisvan, Venus plus a 74 vs a turkish threedecker

I didnt look for the rest but randolph(frig) vs yarmouth(64 third):

yarmouth got raked 3 times and got some mastdmg and randolph had a magazine explosion, 3 survivors

So that frig got wrecked and caused only slight dmg to the third rate

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  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time


1, Variable wind speed and weather both in open world and in battles would be my wish. - As regards the wind changing in port battles i think it's a nice tactical addition. I would however suggest that it doesn't just rotate in direction but varies side to side with a 50% chance? So a northern wind can become either a westerly or easterly wind over a given time.

2, 3 5, - Both the heeling and leeway additions that i've noticed since returning to the game are really nice. Love the more natural feel of the ships and the difference between them. One thing i do find strange though is the fact that some of the larger vessels can overtake or at least keep up with the light 6th and 7th rates. Not sure if it was like this in real life but it feels odd in game not being able to get away from a Endyimion in a 6th rate square rigged ship.

All other changes i thought were fine or didnt notice due to being away from the game for so long.


Crosbie
 

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2 hours ago, rediii said:

thats still the case in my oppinion. Its maybe even worse now since you turn less fast with less crew

No it is not. I did a fight with Hachi (trinc) vs me (Santi). He was able to tag me from any position he wanted.  So ofc i head no weather gauge. Ofc The way to succes depends on the captains you are facing but the rule of thumb is:

  • Gain weather gauge at all cost
  • Use Chain (its much more effective especially when no time to mast snipe)
  • get some space between you and the enemy
  • now either outrun and sail away (leave battle) or keep weather gauge  and pound his hull from distance.

The biggest mistake you do is by getting cocky and try to hunt him down (going close) when the enemy is low on health especially when you give up weather gauge. That really can flip the tide of the battle.

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Why are there 2 different API terms for yard turn speed?

 SHIP_TURNING_SPEED_RHEAS is used for Bovenwinds Refit.

RHEA_TURN_SPEED used for all the other modules.

Is the bovenwinds not giving the yard turn bonus?

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Wind changes
Please slow down the how fast the wind turns to 1/3 of the current speed.
Suggestion: I would personally like to test random wind change. The way it works now is to predictable. So for example we could get from 0 to 3 wind changes during a 1,5 hour long battle. When the wind changes should be random, what direction it changes to should be random and in which direction it turns should also be random. Should make chasing players down/ or upwind interesting when the wind could all of a sudden do a 180 turn ;) 

General turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
Buff St Pavel turn rate. I think it should match the Bellona's stats (it has no chasers so it needs something and it has a long water line, so the Bellona should be able to out turn it in battle)

Speed curves and ship difference
Would like to separate the Bucentaure and St Pavel more. St Pavel should be faster and have a better overall sailing curve than the Bucentaure. If they are to similar I'm forced to chose the Bucentaure 10 out of 10 times because of the better broadside weight.

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary
Please nerf the Wasa's. Reduce it's speed curve overall and increase it's BR so it is closer to the 3. rate, rather than the other 4. rate's.

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39 minutes ago, Malachi said:

from the top of my head: Randolph vs.Yarmouth, La Forte plus four other frigates vs two British 74s, Venus vs Rättisvan, Venus plus a 74 vs a turkish threedecker

3 in 200 years... Awesome. 

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Just thougt of something: Sailing profile of the Santa Cecilia is utter trash. I guess you didnt pay much attention to it in the recent patches.

I understand if you dont want her to be overpowered since shes so exclusive, but she should have a nice twist to make her desirable.

Edited by Havelock
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@Jorge

There were more, of course. But just one would have been enough to make your initial statement invalid. 

Edited by Malachi

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6 minutes ago, Jorge said:

3 in 200 years... Awesome. 

So what you're saying is that imaginary pixel 1st rate you are going to be sailing around in should have a "I Win" button?  

Or that only ships of the same rate can fight each other in the OW?

Sounds like a fun game.

Much like in sports, the player talent usually has a bigger factor in success than does the equipment, no?  The difference is, in real life, navies would rarely, if ever, put complete idiots in command of the kings property.

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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1st rates with 100+ cm thickness is silly. Nothing really can penetrate them, you must go 0-20m away side by side perfect angle to hit it with only 42s, maybe with double charge 32s will do something too. Smaller ships can only chain, chain, rake, rake, chain, board.

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15 minutes ago, Malachi said:

@Jorge

There were more, of course. But just one would have been enough to make your initial statement invalid. 

What is invalid is your premise, if in more than 200 years it has only happened on very few occasions.

 

16 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So what you're saying is that imaginary pixel 1st rate you are going to be sailing around in should have a "I Win" button?  

Or that only ships of the same rate can fight each other in the OW?

Sounds like a fun game.

Much like in sports, the player talent usually has a bigger factor in success than does the equipment, no?  The difference is, in real life, navies would rarely, if ever, put complete idiots in command of the kings property.

No, of course not. But neither does the one that uses a frigate have to have an advantage simply by using that type of boat. I guess balancing the game is paramount. Obviously, no one expects band to band with a surprise to sink a victory.

And as for the captain, you're right but here are talking about some of the best players I've seen in the game and I do not think they need to make it easier to sink less experienced players even if they use more powerful boats.

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9 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

1. Accurate prevailing wind directions for bot OW and Combat. The wind "clock" really is an immersion breaker since I know how the wind patterns actually are in the Caribbean. Of course players will then complain it isn't "balanced".

2. Heel seems to be a bit much in all the square riggers I've used in game. In addition, while the inability to depress guns far enough to compensate for the windward side is realistic, the ability to elevate the guns enough to compensate on the lee side no matter how far over you're heeled is more than was actually possible.

3. Leeway seems a little too high on most of the square-rigged ships I've used. Everyone of them end up backing sails while tacking and that just isn't the way they work when properly trimmed and handled. Using manual sails correctly during a tack does nothing to alleviate the issue, and done correctly, it should. As an aside to this, some of the ships seem to turn faster when backing sails than they do moving forward... odd sort of thing. Also, if we need to make rudder corrections to sail in a straight line, how about putting in incremental rudder control so I can adjust my heading for leeway without having to keep pushing the helm over every few seconds -- you know, like it is in RL.

4. I'm not sure if the poor handling I've seen since the last changes are due to the Turn Rates, or the Turn Acceleration Rates. The Indefatigable, which has been my main 5th Rate since the wipe, Wears around well if the turn is long enough to get up to turn speed. For anything less than about 120 degrees, however, it feels like it's wallowing. Still, I've been able to dance around Constitutions with it, so I think the Connie may need to be revisited as well.

5. Ship differences are easier to assess than the curves and they are adequate for the most part. The Surprise is quicker than the Indef (and mine is made of woods giving some speed and acceleration bonuses). Turns better and seems to sail better a bit closer to the wind than it's big cousin. On the other hand the Mercury, which was quite sweet in most respects until the last change, has become a barge. It's reputation IRL was built on being able to survive against multiple opponents and much of that came from is sailing capabilities. I guess the differences are about what I would expect, but there are some that seem a bit off.

6. I think I cover this in 3 above. The first thing I thought of that caused issues with this was the leeway, but the physics changes probably helped.

7. As I said in number 4, turning seems to work okay while wearing around, once I get the ships up to speed. There may also be a bit too much drag causing the rate to go down more than I would have expected.

Thanks for the opportunity to give some feed back on the sailing models. For the most part I feel leeway was needed but a little over done; the physics changes have drastically changed the handling on some of the ships, but not so much on others and the larger the ship (except for the Mercury) the more the handling seems to drop... although I would expect that.

Edited by Challenge

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1 hour ago, Jorge said:

What is invalid is your premise, if in more than 200 years it has only happened on very few occasions.

That´s ridiculous.

You said that frigates didn´t fight against ships of the line. That statement was false, pure and simple.

By the way, if you knew a bit about naval history, then you would´ve noticed that my examples more or less just covered a 25-year span, I'll let you figure out which one, I´m done with this conversation. And to quote myself:

Quote

There were more, of course.

 

 

 

Edited by Malachi

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