Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
Sign in to follow this  
H2O

Cannonball vs Mast Physics

Recommended Posts

Can someone who is an expert in physics verify this for me. 

1. Smaller caliber ball will bounce from thicker mast section if alignment is not perfect. (angle (tilt), distance, weather(waves, wind) will impact performance and sniping sails with balls should not be possible in 99% of the time. This makes even more sense with thin mast section as area is drastically reduced and with factors listed above probability of hitting thin mast section should be 1 in 10000 ).\

Why am I saying that? Imagine 2 ships, both changing angles every second in different directions on Y axis. This means aim is alive from both parties or worsened by 2. On top of that add 2 round objects colliding together in not 100% parallel lines. Don't forget rotation on X axis, 2 ships could turn in different directions when shot is made. This will increase ricochet probability. 

2.  Smaller caliber ball will get stuck inside thicker mast section if alignment is perfect and distance is short.

3. Large caliber ball will remove a chunk of thinner mast section , but will change direction when impacts thick section. This will result in some damage , but will not take down the mast as multiple shots in the same location must be produced. 

I am simply trying to figure out why we do not have ball bounce from thick mast section since we do not produce 100% aligned shot all the time. I believe this issue needs more research and can drastically improve mast survival if shot using ball. 

Different story with chain vs thick section and that should be discussed as well. Chain in close range should be the only reliable mast killer imho. 

I would like to hear your thoughts and let's assume we are working with the strongest wood in game. 

mySdDCV.jpg

Mast condition after multiple ball hits. Mast sections remain intact and do not fall. In order for it to fall multiple shots must hit already damaged area. True or false?

uC1ASBV.jpg

Edited by H2O

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, H2O said:

Large caliber ball will remove a chunk of thinner mast section

Im not expert but I would assume the mast would still fall because it wouldn't be able to take the incredible wind force that they need to handle. Keep in mind even a good mast could be ripped of a ship in certain conditions. You're over complicating a simple balancing issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Im not expert but I would assume the mast would still fall because it wouldn't be able to take the incredible wind force that they need to handle. Keep in mind even a good mast could be ripped of a ship in certain conditions. You're over complicating a simple balancing issue.

Mast is supported by ropes from all directions and you need to be really lucky to produce that shot with a direct hit as too many factors prevent us to do such things in real life. I researched you tube videos and I noticed 'machine gun' effect in Naval action. Basically you shoot balls in a straight line (unlocked sector) while turning hits mast hitbox too often. Ever watched Predator movie? Same principal. Naval Action physics act as they would vs stationary object, but not a moving one @admin  mast ricochet and hitboxes are the problem I think.

1. Hitboxes are too big and are not divided into sectors

2. Above listed factors are non existent. 

In real life even if you did shoot balls in a straight line ship would already change angle and mast location because it hit the wave of wind force was stronger inside sails from both sides. It has to be an incredibly lucky shot to make it happen. In NA they happen all the time. Question is why? and what is wrong here. 

 

Edited by H2O

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, H2O said:

Mast is supported by ropes and you need to be really lucky to produce that shot with a direct hit as too many factors prevent us to do such things in real life. I researched you tube videos and I noticed 'machine gun' effect in Naval action. Basically you shoot balls in a straight line each while turning hits mast hitbox too often. Ever watched Predator movie? Same principal. 

In real life even if you did shoot balls in a straight line ship would already change angle and mast location because it hit the wave of wind force was stronger inside sails. 

Im trying to understand what you're saying here but it makes no sense to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Im trying to understand what you're saying here but it makes no sense to me. 

We are able to put 4-8 shots into the same mast wound ignoring physics. You can't do that in real life with old fashioned cannons. It's impossible and that is why I call it 'machine gun' effect. Even most advanced ships today can't produce such shots. 

Broadside 14 shots with 4+ direct hits on the same mast spot. :oProve me wrong, but something is broken here. 

Sorry can't explain better. 

Edited by H2O

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gunnery is and has always been far too accurate. You can play around with mast thickness and hit points but it's just avoiding the real problem.

Which is that gunnery dispersion during rolling broadside (or single shot) is far too low, in reality the ship is rolling and smoke from the first guns to fire blinds gunners, you would have a lot of vertical dispersion and even horizontal dispersion as the gunners miss their timing in the smoke.

At most rolling broadside should only be accurate enough to hit the enemies side or bow/stern at point blank range, and firing single shots for ranging should reset dispersion/bloom so you have to wait several seconds to aim in again. 

At longer ranges everyone should be using the "random shot" mode for better dispersion and keep rolling broadsides for point blank raking or passing a ship at short range.

Random shot btw isn't random at all, it's is careful calculation with 1-2-3-4-5-6 timing to fire the whole broadside that aids long range gunnery by producing a deliberate pattern much like a shotgun blast. Admin made a great explanation of this back in the sea trials days but seems to have forgotten it now :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My gut tells me that if cannon were made inaccurate enough to meaningfully affect the dismasting, then we would be missing SoL hulls at 50m, and the game wouldn't be playable. Certainly hitting Lynx hulls amidst the waves would become a crapshoot.

But Alex raises a good point. A rolling broadside should be far less accurate than it is now. By definition you are telling your gunners to fire in sequence, with no regards for where the barrel is pointing at the moment of ignition.

So rolling fire should become the least accurate means of firing, with Random the most accurate. Only the first three ranging shots should be accurate, unless you fire slowly to allow the smoke to clear.

But let's be realistic: the gunnery is finalized. Maybe for the next game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, H2O said:

uC1ASBV.jpg

If a real mast was damaged like that, odds are the top would split off while under full sail. 

If you look at a tree, and you watch lumberjacks cut at it, they dont just cut straight across the trunk.  No they cut a wedge out of it.  This weakens the trunk base, AND it gives them some control over where it will fall.   You can find countless videos of trees snapping unexpectedly on the lumberjack because of wind or other force, while he is still cutting the wedge out.

 

Seeing as a mast is pretty much a tree trunk, the same logic would apply.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pattern broadside or random fire is more or less where it should be, firing to hit an enemy at medium and long ranges is quite accurate. Or at least accurate enough.

However most people prefer rolling broadsides because they are very accurate and allow extreme concentration of fire at even very long ranges with enough practice. I have vivid memories of Tommy Shelby sniping the mizzen mast off my Connie with a Victory at not less than 800m, and the whole broadside went through my mizzen-top platform like a stream of cannonballs about 3ft by 3ft that ran deliberately from the front of the mizzentop platform to the back just below the height of the platform itself.

At 800m. With a 50 gun broadside.  

Which is great for Tommy and the people who have really practiced gunnery, but also slightly insane, wildly unrealistic and causing all sorts of problems with dismasting mechanics.

All that would need changing is cranking up horizontal/vertical dispersion on rolling broadsides by a factor of about 3-10 (starting low and increasing as more guns fired) and adding reticle bloom to each aimed shot so people can't machine gun snipe. Perhaps reduce dispersion on random fire as compensation.

Edited by Alex Connor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×