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Carronades vs Cannon (my take)

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I'm bored and these forums need some new topics, so here goes. I like many are always questioning which guns are better for which ship. After scratching some figures on paper and taking into account the general course of battles, I can say with hesitant certainty, it's cannons. I can also add with even more hesitation that longs are superior over mediums. If you're as bored as I am read on.

 

From a purely mathematical standpoint the superior penetrating ability and accuracy of cannons (especially longs) makes them the clear choice over carronades. While carronades load quicker and deliver more damage when they hit, they force you to hold your fire far more often then cannons do. As long as you can lay off your opponent broadside to broadside, you'll do just fine. The reality is that this is easier said then done and next to impossible against a human who is angling their ship. The inferior penetration of carronades beyond 150 yds. makes them useless in many cases. For instance, a 24 lbs. carronade, at 250 yds. would not penetrate a Navy Brigs armor at anything but a nearly flush angle. Let me put this into perspective...a Frigate with 24 lbs. carronades mounted, could not penetrate the armor of a Navy Brig that is slightly angled to it (at 250 yds.). You basically would be wasting your shot. Which brings me to the second point.

 

The amount of shots that you manage to get off per battle is important. Having cannons mounted allows you to fire at any enemy within 500 yds. with a average expectation of landing some of those shots. Every opportunity beyond 250 yds. is lost to carronades. Even if they by some stroke of luck do manage to land, they will probably not penetrate. The amount of targets that present themselves and can be hit by cannons in a 500 yds. radius is, on average, far greater then the number that presents themselves and can be hit by carronades in a 250 yds. radius. (and that is being very generous to the carronades)

 

The nature of carronades relegates your ship into the role of brawler. Brawler is great and its lots of fun slugging it out broadside to broadside. However the consequence of this style, is that while you may give better then you get...you still get damaged. By the third ship you are in general not looking too good. At this point your options are limited. Run for the circle, go down fighting or watch and hope. At the very least a ship mounting cannons can avoid the last one and stay up fighting, albeit from a distance.

 

One final note...if you are playing another human who has mounted cannons against your carronades, you can bet they won't get within 200 yds. of you. Even in a much smaller ship they will hold the advantage. There is nothing more frustrating than being pinpricked to death. For now many players are getting away with carronades only because of bots, myself included. Once this game gets a decent population and bots are removed, you will see far more players with cannons mounted over carronades for the reasons I have stated.

 

I apologize for the length of the post, again I was bored and just thought I'd help populate a very barren Legends forum.

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Once this game gets a decent population and bots are removed, you will see far more players with cannons mounted over carronades for the reasons I have stated.

At which point it will be time to buff carronades, which were mostly nerfed due to Sea Trials when people fought in a ring.

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Carronades are good on top decks and stern guns. They don't have range but a good carronade broadside will do a lot more damage than longs, and are faster to load so dps wise they're a clear choice.

Mediums aren't that bad either if you plan on staying a bit close to your enemy, More damage and faster reload for slightly less close-mid range pen.

I think the only time a 24pd carronade would pen an angled ship at 250 yards is if it sailed up and into the the top of the deck, where it may take our a crew or mildly penetrate, falling below deck and breaking someone's shoulder or something.

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the irony i found out about them is that as a brawler you would want thick hull, but to have realistic chances to get up close you need to be fast and nimble. it's not so easy to get distance from a fast ship with carros that's going for you head on, and if you grant him the brawl you're on the bad end. can be nasty.

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Let's not forget that long guns have a tedious reload, and their greater weight is enough to shave a full .10 knots or so off most frigates in comparison to cannonades. It's a decisive factor in choosing your gun loadout.

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While the differences between Carros, long guns and mediums are well known and tactics have evolved to deal with each are well developed, it is still at the end of the day personal preference and playstyle that are the deciding factors.

I think that the more tactically savvy players, and there are growing numbers of these, could seriously consider a two ship team  one with a Carro/ long gun combination to do serious damage and an all long gun ship to stand off in order to slow down or cause additional damage the opponent's ship(s) once carros have finally become balanced. Once developed such tactics would be difficult to counter should a ship be separated from its consorts, but not impossible. 

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I doubt that we will ever have Bots Removed. No matter how much Population we get.

Simple Reason being that this would Completely Seal out New Players forever.

Most Players Simply do not Spend long in the Small Starting Ships. So even with a Large Player Population you usually have nearly Nobody on the Small Ships. Since they are just too small a part of the Captains Life.

 

Also. Larger Ships in my Eyes are not really meant to Mount Carronades.

Carronades are Weapons meant for Smaller Ships and for the less used Decks Guns which in Battles between Larger Ships usually wont be Fired on anything beyond 50 Yards anyways.

 

 

I do Agree however that Carronades should get a Damage Buff.

A Carronade Should effectively Do the Damage of a Cannon with its Calibre.

After all thats what it is about. Its lack of Penetration is the Payoff for that after all.

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4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I do Agree however that Carronades should get a Damage Buff.

A Carronade Should effectively Do the Damage of a Cannon with its Calibre.

After all thats what it is about. Its lack of Penetration is the Payoff for that after all.

Maybe not towards structure, a cannon going slower through a ship will cause more splinters, doing more damage to crew than a nice clean shot through the hull will. 

They already to that better, but could still use a buff.

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According to my experience:

PVE:

Carronades are a must until SOLs, and shall be used with high HP wood and upgrades builds: you just close in and melt the target faster than he can melt your armor.

Long are better when you start getting into SOLs, but they shall be used with + thickness + pen wood and upgrades builds: just keep fighting at medium distance and your longs will penetrate a lot more than the cannons of the NPCs.

PVP

OS: since in OS speed is the meta, the capability too dictate the range is essential. So as far as you have a very fast ship, longs are the way to go. Carronades may have their role in shallow water OS PVP for some ships (I think about snow and niagara).

PB: well, longs all the way when you fight in rated vessels, since PB fitted ships usually have a lot of HP and thickness and good penetration ratio also from distance is essential. For shallow waters PB carros could be a choice, since those battles often become a close quarters brawl.

 

In summary: long are almost always a better choice, except for PVE and for some particular situation.

Edited by victor

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Since the carro nerf you're pretty much forced to go side by side to make your shots count (due to low penetration value the bounce probability is high), which means you are exposing yourself and take unnecessary damage

Meanwhile, with mediums you can pen. From more odd ish angles and got more range aswell. DPS is not that much worse, if you make your double balls count you might even be done faster, while taking less damage

(Unless you go for raking and boarding.)

#BuffCarronades

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1 hour ago, JobaSet said:

When was the last carro nerf.  I remember it, just don't remember when it was.  

 

  • Carronades penetration drop from distance significantly increased making them effectively a short range weapon. Don't expect any penetrations above 500m.

Think it was this one. After that they were slightly buffed again to what we have now but i'm not sure.

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I think the main problem here is the fact that using diverse broadsides (for example carronades on top, medium on upper and long on lower deck) is not a good idea in Naval action due to aiming being done for whole broadside, so you would end up wasting your shots most of the time.. in reality, each deck had own officer responsible for properly aiming the guns.. I think devs should investigate options to add some kind of "gunnery assist" to player where he could pre-set his guns to certain roles,  let say load grape for his carronades and preset them to only fire if target is close, while other guns would keep the solid shot - player would not have to micromanage it, but would engage targets as he sees them with ammo he wants to use for best effect.

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19 minutes ago, JaM said:

I think the main problem here is the fact that using diverse broadsides (for example carronades on top, medium on upper and long on lower deck) is not a good idea in Naval action due to aiming being done for whole broadside, so you would end up wasting your shots most of the time.. in reality, each deck had own officer responsible for properly aiming the guns.. I think devs should investigate options to add some kind of "gunnery assist" to player where he could pre-set his guns to certain roles,  let say load grape for his carronades and preset them to only fire if target is close, while other guns would keep the solid shot - player would not have to micromanage it, but would engage targets as he sees them with ammo he wants to use for best effect.

You can disable certain decks and fire carronades seperately not affecting the aim or accuracy. The only problem I have is that in order to switch carronades from chain to ball while loading double ball/charge I have to switch all decks to ball, resetting the reload.

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yes, but thats exactly my point.. option to use different loadouts is very complicated, and something that is very problematic to do in heat of battle.. I think some kind of a new system, where player could chose how should his guns operate is needed.. its not just about enabling/disabling guns.. why not use different decks against different target areas? (fire grape from carronades, chains from upper deck and doubleshot from lower deck at short-medium ranges for example at the same time, with each deck being aimed automatically against different parts of enemy ship (grape vs top deck, chain vs sails, doubleshot vs hull)

Something like a "Gun panel" which you could pop out, and select ammo, enable/disable deck and select target area (hull, sails, top deck) I know players like firing guns manually, but i think current system only really works for ships with single gun deck.. bigger ship you have, more shots you waste

 

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IMO a slight damage buff is all that is need for carronades. Off the top of my head a medium 6pdr does 38 dmg whereas a 18pdr carronade does 50 dmg, so about 25% more.

Carronades should do significant damage at close range - 50 m or pistol shot. After all they were called "smashers" for a reason. They would often load quarterdeck carros with grape and ball, be nice to do that in NA

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1 hour ago, DeRuyter said:

Carronades should do significant damage at close range - 50 m or pistol shot. After all they were called "smashers" for a reason. They would often load quarterdeck carros with grape and ball, be nice to do that in NA

AFAIK only the 68-pound carronades had the nickname 'smasher'.

And +1 for grape and ball

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I haven't really used carronades on anything larger than a 5th rate recently but it still feels like they're a bit too accurate at times. At release all fights will be 25v25 (I'm guessing) so everything with be turning into melees pretty quickly - most carro ships won't be running out of targets for quite a large portion of fights. Might be worth trying a slight nerf to accuracy or penn at longer ranges again?

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6 hours ago, JaM said:

I think the main problem here is the fact that using diverse broadsides (for example carronades on top, medium on upper and long on lower deck) is not a good idea in Naval action due to aiming being done for whole broadside, so you would end up wasting your shots most of the time.. in reality, each deck had own officer responsible for properly aiming the guns.. I think devs should investigate options to add some kind of "gunnery assist" to player where he could pre-set his guns to certain roles,  let say load grape for his carronades and preset them to only fire if target is close, while other guns would keep the solid shot - player would not have to micromanage it, but would engage targets as he sees them with ammo he wants to use for best effect.

i like your suggestions. both of them.

the first one would be easily solved if aiming took into account the fact that you disabled decks. it currently doesn't (not sure if this is a bug). that way you could at least micromanage your aiming to be right with different types of guns on deck.

automating all this would be far more involved, but it's a good suggestion considering who the developers are. they have shown masterful accomplishment in abstracting micromanaging in ultimate general, i'd love to see how that could apply to na.

 

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