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Masts made of glass?

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1 hour ago, admin said:

ps

You can counter demasting making it impossible, but you dont want it, because of that brain pattern. Learn to overcome it Captain and you will do better. Equip upgrades to masts, speed does not matter since couple of last patches. 4 mast upgrades slow you down but make demasting impossible, you will enjoy those battles immensely - laughing when enemies spend half an hour trying to get your masts down while you sink them all. 

Most of the masts upgrades have penalities to heel and speed, making manuevering and aiming much more harder.

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37 minutes ago, Tac said:

Although I feel I must add that speed does matter because otherwise you will never catch anyone to have a battle with.

 

It is different now - you can debuff the speed through structure, its easier and more effective than mast shooting. Lose half structure and you lose up to 70% speed ;)

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As someone else said in another thread, gun accuracy is the issue, not the damage they do or the thickness of masts.  Right now we have guns that can be fired like they are being shot out of a gun on the Leopard 2E tank.

 

Most masts fell back in the day due to stays and lines being shot out, not to direct mast hits.   Hence why chain and bar shot was so dangerous.   The French would intentionally give up the wind t get elevation to fire into the masts and rigging of the enemy ship.   

Right now you dont need to give up the wind to shoot up into the rigging of another ship.  You you dont have to use battle sails because ships are to stable at full sails and the damage done to the masts under full sail is the same as the damage done under battle sails. 

 

My suggestion is reduced damage to masts or increased resistance to masts while at battle sails.

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People that know me know I love demasting but mid and tops need a hp buff in my honest oppinion. Im sick of people doing the downwind kiting top section demasting..... 

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

It is different now - you can debuff the speed through structure, its easier and more effective than mast shooting. Lose half structure and you lose up to 70% speed ;)

I only see a  significant speed drop when structure is almost 0

Edited by z4ys

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1 hour ago, TommyShelby said:

Feel free to check out the spreadsheet linked in this topic; 


 

:o 

its him....

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2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Gotta agree with admin here. Yes 32s and 42s and deadly against most ships mast, but frigate v frigate a few buffs will render your mast pretty sturdy. Demasting only goes so far, I'd like to see an example of someone getting canoe'd in an even fight before having any chance to respond. Until then demasting is in a pretty good place imo.

I actually run French refit on my prince for that reason when I'm playing tagger stern camper to keep folks in battles.  Along with Renno's or other ships I use like this, they might not be totaly decked out speed ships, but they need to keep mast and sails up long enough for the big boys to catch up.

Though I have been noticing folks mention a trend with US players and I think you where one of them and the ship I captured off lionshaft before the merge are heavy Mast modded for that reason since we go for mast to disable your ships and than have folks move in to board or just sink you.

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

Imo, masts fall very easily due to the gun accuracy.

Less accuracy and a buff on hp masts could help to properly balance the issue.

But it's not just mast your hitting, it's the rigging and other things that can grow foul and disable your ships.   

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3 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Remember what happened when we had crew & cannon damage from hull side hits?  It did not really matter were you stern raking or sniping masts, it was deadly to sail a side and have a faster reload time than your enemy.  Then just hammer s out from your enemy.  Sounds like a war winning tactic?

Doubling is a real naval tactic if I remember correctly.  This does not really work like it did IRL.  Hard to make working with 0 "internal" damage. Side internal damage will make community unhappy, so probably making masts to have equally arcade damage model than sides would be better.  Stern crew damage should follow the same arcadeness btw.

Accuracy and mast hp have similar effect btw.  Also not sure how big hit box ball and masts have, are those realistic? If you make hitboxes smaller you basically decrease accuracy and may fix everything by just doing that.

You could also consider this..  Further from mast hitbox center balls hit, less damage those do.

The devs have already built so much on the realistic-ness of the combat and ship handling, why step back from that?

Start with the mast HP and decrease cannon accuracy a touch. Bring back side internal damage, if a ball pens it pens, its going to do damage to crew/guns. Adjust damage resistance accordingly. Maybe update the hull damage model to be in more line with the mast damage. Add a planking damage bar that when shot away, decreases the amount of resistance you have to internal hull damage.

Because I also think the sheer strength of hull adds to the demasting problem. The absolute best way to fight a demaster is to go straight for hull right away, forcing him to engage your hull as as well or risk massive damage. The problem is there is no active damage happening when you go for hull. Yeah you get a few crew kilks but for the most part you're just shooting into a sponge for 89% of their health until they slow down significantly.

Bring back significant crew/cannon damage after some armor is shot away and balls really start flying through the ship. Using unlocked aiming you should be able to aim at a section of a ship and start doing damage to the crew and cannons there. The ability to take out certain sections of guns and internals with good broadside marksmanship is a crucial one IMO. Good ball marksmanship should be rewarded against hull the same way its rewarded for swiping away top mast with a well put broadside. "Mast sniping" shouldn't even be a serious term if we're shooting for realism, there's nothing snipe-y about a smooth bore cannon.

For reference, here's a video of a duel where the other player focus solely on demasting while I went for hull. I don't claim this player an amazing mast sniper, but he rarely put a broadside into my bottom mast without getting less than 3 hits which is good mind you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8diz1Y92o7Q&t=1010

Notice at 27:11 it shows no fires, no pumps, and only 16 cannons and 99 crew. Cannons which are repaired immediately with a hull rep, and crew which can be brought back in dozens by the minute, both of which can be done at the same time. Keep in mind most if not all of these shots are coming from the front corners of the ship, going in long diagonal lines down the length of the midsection. There should be some kind of crew movement/reload speed penalty to constant damage to the gun quarters of a ship, speed/structural leak penalty to lower sides of the ship and perhaps even turning/heel penalties to the bow of the ship. These things go up and we don't have to simplify mast damage, going short of realism. Though it'd be a challenge to balance, there'd be a huge boost in dynamic that would further NA's standing as the best sailing combat sim to date.

TL:DR make hull damage as useful and advanced as mast damage

 

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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1 hour ago, admin said:

It is different now - you can debuff the speed through structure, its easier and more effective than mast shooting. Lose half structure and you lose up to 70% speed ;)

Most of the OW fleet actions start with shots fired from afar (mostly top sections of masts). And when we get to structure speed doesn't mater much anymore as it happens at close range and we already know what will happen. 

We even get to weird stuff... A mortar was used to demast ships in OW battle. Kudos to the Mortar Captain for his accuracy.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

When we are growing up we accumulate brain patterns. Patterns that we like and recognize and if something does not fit the pattern we think that something is wrong.

But in this case your brain pattern is wrong. Somewhere in the past you read something or played something where ships only shot at hull and that was it. Maybe it was total war or age of sail 2 where they had minimal demasting due to old tech and conservation of fps. That pattern stays and its hard to defeat it. But with time it will change. Like accepting the fact that age of sail ships could sail backwards. Or accepting demasting as one of the key tactics (which could be countered)

Demasting was one of the main tactics
from small action 
a64MKC7.jpg

to large 50-60 ship battles
Fd9R4pH.jpg

 

We have no desire to fight with your brain pattern, but please STOP posting your ideals as facts.

  • Say it as it is: you hate (dont like) demasting, 
  • dont say its unrealistic and it never happened.

ps

You can counter demasting making it impossible, but you dont want it, because of that brain pattern. Learn to overcome it Captain and you will do better. Equip upgrades to masts, speed does not matter since couple of last patches. 4 mast upgrades slow you down but make demasting impossible, you will enjoy those battles immensely - laughing when enemies spend half an hour trying to get your masts down while you sink them all. 

Don't get me wrong I love the the idea of a  demasting mechanic. It makes sense ads complexity and realism. Yes it is historically accurate and it is a critical tactic in battle.

I'm going to go ahead and claim the mantle of "the most sunken player in the game" and I dare anyone to challenge me on that lol! 

As someone who has been sunk several times in every ship in almost every configuration I can tell you that yes, it was frustrating every single time but I love playing the game so much I go back build, Buy or cap another ship and go back for more! I realize there is a balance to be made between historical realism and gameplay and you developers have done a damn good job towards achieving that balance!!

My complaint is this there is no fun in being demasted but that is part of the game. What I cannot stand is being demasted in a single broadside or les than 90 seconds when up against the ship of near equal battle rating. I feel like the scimitar wielding bad guy in Indiana Jones who has the big sword and it is trained his whole life to use it but gets shot by Jones and the battle is over. Now imagine being that guy times 50! It just isn't Fun. I play the game to have fun. I don't mind going up against guys that are going to kill me and knowing from the beginning of the battle that I'm going to get sunk. I would just like the ability on a 3 to 1 gank, to take one of them with me. Or to bring a ship to the brink of sinking before I die so that that guy will think twice before messing with me again.

Demasting definitely should stay in the game but it needs work. 

 

 

 

Edited by Sea Fox
Addition

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1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

The devs have already built so much on the realistic-ness of the combat and ship handling, why step back from that?

Start with the mast HP and decrease cannon accuracy a touch. Bring back side internal damage, if a ball pens it pens, its going to do damage to crew/guns. Adjust damage resistance accordingly. Maybe update the hull damage model to be in more line with the mast damage. Add a planking damage bar that when shot away, decreases the amount of resistance you have to internal hull damage.

Because I also think the sheer strength of hull adds to the demasting problem. The absolute best way to fight a demaster is to go straight for hull right away, forcing him to engage your hull as as well or risk massive damage. The problem is there is no active damage happening when you go for hull. Yeah you get a few crew kilks but for the most part you're just shooting into a sponge for 89% of their health until they slow down significantly.

Bring back significant crew/cannon damage after some armor is shot away and balls really start flying through the ship. Using unlocked aiming you should be able to aim at a section of a ship and start doing damage to the crew and cannons there. The ability to take out certain sections of guns and internals with good broadside marksmanship is a crucial one IMO. Good ball marksmanship should be rewarded against hull the same way its rewarded for swiping away top mast with a well put broadside. "Mast sniping" shouldn't even be a serious term if we're shooting for realism, there's nothing snipe-y about a smooth bore cannon.

For reference, here's a video of a duel where the other player focus solely on demasting while I went for hull. I don't claim this player an amazing mast sniper, but he rarely put a broadside into my bottom mast without getting less than 3 hits which is good mind you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8diz1Y92o7Q&t=1010

Notice at 27:11 it shows no fires, no pumps, and only 16 cannons and 99 crew. Cannons which are repaired immediately with a hull rep, and crew which can be brought back in dozens by the minute, both of which can be done at the same time. Keep in mind most if not all of these shots are coming from the front corners of the ship, going in long diagonal lines down the length of the midsection. There should be some kind of crew movement/reload speed penalty to constant damage to the gun quarters of a ship, speed/structural leak penalty to lower sides of the ship and perhaps even turning/heel penalties to the bow of the ship. These things go up and we don't have to simplify mast damage, going short of realism. Though it'd be a challenge to balance, there'd be a huge boost in dynamic that would further NA's standing as the best sailing combat sim ever made.

TL:DR make hull damage as useful and advanced as mast damage

 

Now that's an interesting topic.

Realistically, hitting the hull could do serious damage to the masts and rigging:

  • Penetrating shot that strikes the masts below deck-level
  • Shot strikes chainplates, channels, shrouds and backstays weakening the most important running rigging (mast HP debuff)
  • Shot smashes the pinrails, making yards and sails fly out of control (rigging shock)

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3 hours ago, admin said:

we are not saying demasting is fully balanced. In previous post we just responded to captains who claimed that demasting is unrealistic and not historical (never happened)

Just check my post, I said "I do not think", I did not say I am sure or I know it. Do I need to explain what "I don't think" means ?

Suprised to see you kind of offended on the demasting subject. I still do think the "accuracy of longs+charged+some skills", which leads to "single shot sniping" is not even close to being realistic. I do accept some well placed broadside can cut the masts, but come on, sniping with single shots ;)

By the way I love your game, I will keep playing, I do not hate anything about this lovely game, except the UI, Map, Huge changes without notice, Slow development of the game, and some other small things. We all here want to see this game getting better and better each day.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Sea Fox said:

 I feel like the scimitar wielding bad guy in Indiana Jones who has the big sword and it is trained his whole life to use it but gets shot by Jones and the battle is over.

Demasting definitely should stay in the game but it needs work. 

 

 

 

OT- Funny note about that scene. 

Harrison Ford did that because he couldn't get the choreography right for the fight scene.  So on a whim he just shot the guy, and it was a wrap.  The director went with that take because he felt that is what Indy would have done. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Bring back significant crew/cannon damage after some armor is shot away and balls really start flying through the ship.

The last time this was tested one round shot from bow to stern killed 80 crew members.  It can be that we tested side internal damage with overall unbalanced damage model.  Everyone lost their crew fast from side hits.  Everyone was disabled and all that was achieved was that everyone lost dps. It did not matter much where you landed your shots, it was a massacre.

If stern and mast damage are set to be this high, more "realistic", we probably need internal damage from side hits as well.

If we keep all protecting hull sides, stern and mast damage should be nerfed on similar level of arcadeness.  Similar level has been reached when doubling feels rewarding?

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You can actually bring down a mast with shots below the deck and hitting the mast base under the weather deck. 

I have brought down the masts on a NPC Trader Brig by shooting through the stern of the ship at the same level as the stern chasers.   I aimed right between them and 2 or 3 broadsides later from a Trincomalee with long guns, I took the main mast down. 

 

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5 hours ago, admin said:

You can counter demasting making it impossible, but you dont want it, because of that brain pattern. Learn to overcome it Captain and you will do better. Equip upgrades to masts, speed does not matter since couple of last patches. 4 mast upgrades slow you down but make demasting impossible, you will enjoy those battles immensely - laughing when enemies spend half an hour trying to get your masts down while you sink them all. 

 

Can you elaborate:

1) Afaik we have a general 25% buff cap. Since theres upgrades like Reinforced stern though i guess this cap is not existant for all parameters. So, can i actually buff mast thickness or HP above 25%?

2) How did they counter demasting back then? I guess lowering sails, right? Masts in game dont care if youre on 100% or 0% and will just fall if enough damage has been dealt. Can we expect a better use for battle sails in the future? Like, taking 60% less damage to masts when youre on 40% sails?

3) How is your position on demasting overall? If you watched recent battles, its very obvious that almost all battles start with demasting these days. French Rig is a must have upgrade in competitive PvP, with the Elite version being even more desirable.

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7 hours ago, admin said:

When we are growing up we accumulate brain patterns. Patterns that we like and recognize and if something does not fit the pattern we think that something is wrong.

But in this case your brain pattern is wrong. Somewhere in the past you read something or played something where ships only shot at hull and that was it. Maybe it was total war or age of sail 2 where they had minimal demasting due to old tech and conservation of fps. That pattern stays and its hard to defeat it. But with time it will change. Like accepting the fact that age of sail ships could sail backwards. Or accepting demasting as one of the key tactics (which could be countered)

Demasting was one of the main tactics
from small action 
a64MKC7.jpg

to large 50-60 ship battles
Fd9R4pH.jpg

 

We have no desire to fight with your brain pattern, but please STOP posting your ideals as facts.

  • Say it as it is: you hate (dont like) demasting, 
  • dont say its unrealistic and it never happened.

ps

You can counter demasting making it impossible, but you dont want it, because of that brain pattern. Learn to overcome it Captain and you will do better. Equip upgrades to masts, speed does not matter since couple of last patches. 4 mast upgrades slow you down but make demasting impossible, you will enjoy those battles immensely - laughing when enemies spend half an hour trying to get your masts down while you sink them all. 

mods wont' save your ship against a pen modded ship just sayin

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12 hours ago, admin said:

We have no desire to fight with your brain pattern, but please STOP posting your ideals as facts.

  • Say it as it is: you hate (dont like) demasting, 
  • dont say its unrealistic and it never happened.

 

I dont like demasting as it's boring for demasted guy. Realistic indeed it may be. The game is realistic in demasting. The game is not realistic in towns being changed across nations more often than me changing my socks, plus it rewards (or not) people for olimpic medal table like position at the end of "round".

Lets all have realistic brain patterns please.

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Redeemable Agamemnon in PvE 4th rate mission VS Frigate and Surprise.

Mostly fired 18pd medium charged shots but also 24pd.

Now that I check Shelbys chart it can be that many from those 18pd charged shots did not even penetrate.

5x Bottom Mast sniped in 12-15 minutes.  3 from Frigate and 2 from Surprise.  (Even 25 minutes would be way too fast for 5 masts)

No accuracy upgrades, books or perks.

1st game after very long break.  Was even stuck in irons multiple times wondering how you tack with the new model.  What is the best way to tack?

I was playing this long so I hope I am better than an average player, but sure far from a pro.

With my skills I would not expect this kind of results.  I tested it and sure it could be worse, but it is broken as hell at the moment.

For years there has been changes done for masts.  How can we still be in this state?  You have done A and B, then tested A again and then B again, then A ... .  You know you could try to find and test options C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and L as well?

...

Additional ideas on top of those I already said in earlier posts:

If masts were stronger, you could decrease chain shot damage.

If masts were stronger, you could easily remove multiple repair kits per battle.

As cannons are too accurate and you dont want to make those less accurate, you can increase mast hp as that creates the same effect.  Multiply mast hp by X for example.  Depending what other fixes you are planning to do, X could be from 1 to 4.

Decrease horizontal accuracy when sniping.  You can still measure the distance, but sniping will be hard.  Wont fix mast rakes.

Consider decreasing charged shot count by -80%

Consider to decrease accuracy so that with all accuracy mods you can achieve the same accuracy level as currently without any mods.  You seem to be Simo Häyhä without any sights anyway.

You could also consider to change damage model so that better your penetration is, higher damage you cause.  Lets say 18 pd charged medium penetration is 1 point higher than mast thickness, minimal damage instead of full medium cannon damage.

18 pd long charged with all penetration upgrades could not penetrate 5th rate mast.  24 pd could not penetrate 4th rates mast, etc.  5th rates have optional mast upgrades to make it harder for 4th rates to dismast them.

Use your own imagination.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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