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As the titled suggests the new repair system is abit unbalanced. I haven't played the game for over a year and a half so i'm unaware of what its been like in previous iterations but as the following video will show the new system is pretty unbalanced. In this fight we killed over 800 crew on this Bellona and yet he managed to keep bringing back hundreds of what i assume are walking drunken blood bags with limbs nailed on. Just watch the video :) I'm not sure what to suggest as a fix, but the idea of carrying a entire new ship on board to repair with and presumably what are small foam blocks that expand into sailors when rums added to them is laughable. Still regardless i'm seriously enjoying being back in the thick of it. Keep up the great work Devs!

PS we got the bugger second time round. 

PPS skip through the midst of it and you'll see what i mean. No time to edit it down with my current workload. 
 

 

Edited by Capt Jubal Early
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I would suggest going back to the old system or perhaps even better refining this one to make the repairs/rum weigh more so you're introducing a soft cap that if you start putting more and more on it will effect your ship drastically. 

That way you can keep the infinite repairs but due to the extra weight you realistically only want to bring 2-3 repairs Max to get the best performance etc out your ship but have the option to bring loads of repairs with negative of seriously reducing ship speed/turning etc.

That way you keep the new system with abit of the old system.

 

Edited by Bloody Hound

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maybe we should also change the crew models to be magical cursed skeletons as they are revived, oh and we still need the kraken.

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what about no repairs of any type in combat, except leak patching? 

just make masts and rudder a bit more difficult to hit and we're good to go.

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I totally agree that reps have gone WAY overboard. I really think the current state of repairs is making PVP stupid vs "Samuari" ships that have Voodoo doctors and self repairing systems..

Last night was a perfect example. a French Endymion sailed by PIT came towards KPR> I had just taken a clan friend out for a bit of "initial PVP training" and we both had Prince de Neufs.

I spotted the French Endy approaching and we called the target and started to follow. Another good player (ie much better than me!) on an Agamemnon responded plus another player ina  prince. We tagged and engaged, a good tag and PIT was ready & willing  to fight.

Now in my eyes I thought we had the perfect "lone raider" interceptor setup. One heavy ship with lots of guns, and 3 smaller fast ships able to prevent escape and provide anti sail support (and possibly some stern raking etc when the enemy ship was more or less crippled)

The plan went well to start with and the Aga closely engaged the Endy, and the Princes stood off and attacked sails.

Endy was down to sub 60% sails quickly, and then repped back up to 100%, we re-engaged sails and took down to sub 60% again, The Aga had also taken his stern and raked and killed a fair amount of crew, plus some hull. Thinking things were going our way, we closed in, and one of the princes was sunk.

The Endy then repped his hull , rose his crew from the dead, and repped sails back up to 100%, we engaged sails again, but as I had thought he was on last legs I had close to "danger close"

A few broadsides later from Endy and my prince was  wreck, and his full 100% sails endy came rapidly closing on me to finish me off!

OPur final prince tried engaging sails but he was the new guy and caught a couple of broadsides from the Endy which was at full speed again and went down. The Aga had stayed close and engaged the whole time, and hadn't managed to get the Endy down below 50% armour or structure except on stern and prow. Also crew only dipped below 200 once, and was always back up again to 250 or so. We followed progress of the Endy / Aga as they dodged and swerved trying to get rakes but both failing to get blows and the battle then timed out. 

The French endy repped again to 100% everything and then defensive tagged a British AI massive fleet and was miles from everyone.

NOW. The French player was good BUT as his ship had magic self healing everything and zombie unkillable crew, I felt like the whole thing was a total waste of time. He made NO effort to preserve his sails, via dodging, angling yards, using battle sails etc, just hammered around everywhere on full sail, safe in (HIS) knowledge that he could rep to 100% every time, repeatedly.

I certainly dont mind sinking for the cause, and having contributed to hunting a ship, but the fact he could repeatedly repair in combat to 100% seems totally ridiculous. Why doesn't each "repair rep" have a hard limit on top. eg 1st rep, 98% , 2nd rep 90% 3rd rep 85% or something. The fact we all died, and french player basically suffered zero (real terms) damage despite us causing a cumulative 150% damage on his sails or more is a joke. Not to mention the fact that our hour long PVP combat got us practically 0 xp and zero rewards. And then you wonder why people dont PVP?? How the hello kitty can you PVP in this situation???

I love NA due to its realism and immersion. Long running fights where ships are slowly battered down, and real tactics etc but this kind of fight made it a joke. sailing merrily at full sails laughing off damage, sail damage and crew deaths and emerging unscathed is more like Pirates of the caribbean than what I remember as NA. 

Honestly this has really shaken my faith since my return to the game recently. I dont see what we could have done differently really, and as I say as far as I am concerned we had the perfect intercept force of harriers and a big gun ship. End result,we all sunk (the Princes), and the enemy sailed off happily totally undamaged after running the clock.

I feel the combat game has "lost the wood for the trees".

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From what i have read here in the topic you guys want to win by casually shooting sails from distance and then closing in by taking the kill. 

Shooting enemy is not enough.. you have to be aggressive

Repairs promote historical combat. our goal is to give a recreation of tactics and concepts of the age of sail too. Why many people love 74 in our game (it was the most numerous combat ship of major navies of the age of sail. They were more numerous than frigates in Mediterranean fleet and Caribbean squadron). They love it because focusing on tactics and concepts supported this 74 popularity in game you feel the same power/performance/cost benefits..

Here is the explanation of the repairs philosophy 

  • multiple repairs during a single battle was a common occurence. During Glorious first of june battle several lineships veered off to repair several times. Battle of ushant had this too
  • timing and choosing what to repair is a skill
  • aggressive attack of opponent is a skill
  • agressive station keeping near enemy is a skill
  • focus fire is a skill
  • crew kills are not kills but casualties (many of which could be recovered)

Repairs are maybe not historical in their volume, but they happened during combat even during duels (constitution vs java).

the main point of repairs is to force historical action over inaction, that was extremely important in the age of sail.

  • If you are passively shooting enemy from distance,
  • if you dont focus fire ,
  • if you dont close up

You will have an indecisive battle.

This is how it was in history. Majority of naval engagements ended up with enemy veering off and repairing. Thats why John de clerck admired by nelson said that only aggressive action wins fights and that finding made britain the empire. Thats why battle of ushant was indecisive (lack of aggressive action, battle of first of june was mildly better, lack of aggressive action, 

 

TLDR.. repairs bring MORE skill to the store. It's proven by data. More people win fights when outnumbered, especially when enemies pew pew indecisively from 1000m like admiral Keppel at the Battle of Ushant (who was actually courtmartialed for lack of aggressiveness) .

Stay aggressive and you will love repairs. 

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

From what i have read here in the topic you guys want to win by casually shooting sails from distance and then closing in by taking the kill. 

Ganking enemy is not enough.. you have to be agressive

Here is the explanation of the repair philosophy 

  • multiple repairs during a single battle was a common occurence. During Glorious first of june battle several lineships veered off to repair several times. Battle of ushant had this too
  • timing and choosing what to repair is a skill
  • aggressive attack of opponent is a skill
  • agressive station keeping near enemy is a skill
  • focus fire is a skill
  • crew kills are not kills but casualties (many of which could be recovered)

Repairs are maybe not really historical (their volume).

But they force historical action over inaction.

  • If you are passively shooting enemy from distance,
  • if you dont focus fire ,
  • if you dont close up

You will have an indecisive battle.

This is how it was in history. Majority of naval engagements ended up with enemy veering off and repairing. Thats why John de clerck admired by nelson said that only aggressive action wins fights and that finding made britain the empire. Thats why battle of ushant was indecisive (lack of aggressive action, battle of first of june was mildly better, lack of aggressive action, 

 

TLDR.. repairs bring MORE skill to the store. It's proven by data. More people win fights when outnumbered, especially when enemies pew pew indecisively from 1000m like admiral Keppel at the Battle of Ushant (who was actually courtmartialed for lack of aggressiveness) .

Stay aggressive and you will love repairs. Because they are actually done by sailors who have to be taken from guns, sailing or survival.

I think what jub is asking for is not the removal of sail repair, but more a downside to it.

historically I doubt they repaired the sails with patches, they had spare sails and would change them when required. doing so required the ships to pull away as you mentioned and it would slow them down during the time they would switch sails.

Maybe a solution would be to give sail repairs a negative main sail / jib sail force. A malus based on the percentage of damage taken on either of these until the repair is finished.

 

Edited by RKY

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41 minutes ago, VonVolks said:

 

Honestly this has really shaken my faith since my return to the game recently. I dont see what we could have done differently really, and as I say as far as I am concerned we had the perfect intercept force of harriers and a big gun ship. End result,we all sunk (the Princes), and the enemy sailed off happily totally undamaged after running the clock.

I feel the combat game has "lost the wood for the trees".

explanation above
in reality you would be courtmartialed for you battle for lack of aggressiveness in combat. Repair cool downs are long enough to sink any ship especially if you are in a group. 

Your description of that solo French captain heroic action shows me that we are on the right path. You blame repairs. I blame your group tactical coordination. 

 

41 minutes ago, VonVolks said:

 

The plan went well to start with and the Aga closely engaged the Endy, and the Princes stood off and attacked sails.

 

that was your mistake.
When outnumbering the enemy if he committed to fight you all have to do one thing, focus on hull (like nelson recommended - nelson's doctrine). 
If you decide to split damage you have to have a plan; Princes should have focused on crew by rakes and stay close so you can completely avoid damage due to gun positions on the endy. You cannot recover sail and crew loss as fast as you described. 

Your battle description shows that you have not been aggressive enough. Endy vs aga and 3 princes is an easy target. But you will learn with practice. Stay close and focus fire into one side.
 

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31 minutes ago, RKY said:

historically I doubt they repaired the sails with patches, they had spare sails and would change them when required. doing so required the ships to pull away as you mentioned and it would slow them down during the time they would switch sails.

 

You are also not required to sleep and are not sent to prison hulk if you are boarded

Its a game first 
But The mentality of age of sail ships as slow behemoths that could not do things like repairs must be burnt out from brain patterns. Its our goal
(for those who want to read on the fast nimble beauty of ships read this great find by @maturin  https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol14/tnm_14_3_57-68.pdf

On repairs our current knowledge is wrong too. 
Replacing a lower mast section was part of the lieutenant exam and could be done at sea
Replacing a sail was even easier.

The goals of repairs is not to provide realism in specific mechanic, the goal of repairs is to promote aggressive action (as if you were passive the age of sail battle ended up with draws usually) and to give a player an option to recover if enemy is passive and win the combat.

 

Whats probably needs tuning is crew repairs and amounts of repair bonuses.

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17 minutes ago, admin said:

You are also not required to sleep and are not sent to prison hulk if you are boarded

Its a game first 
But The mentality of age of sail ships as slow behemoths that could not do things like repairs must be burnt out from brain patterns. Its our goal
Replacing a lower mast section was part of the lieutenant exam and could be done at sea
Replacing a sail was even easier.

The goals of repairs is not to provide realism in specific mechanic, the goal of repairs is to promote aggressive action (as if you were passive the age of sail battle ended up with draws usually) and to give a player an option to recover if enemy is passive and win the combat.

 

Whats probably needs tuning is crew repairs and amounts of repair bonuses.

Yes please :) Its just very OTT at the moment. 

PS

Nerf rum add a surgeon book to knowledge to buff it ;)

Edited by Capt Jubal Early
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32 minutes ago, admin said:

TLDR.. repairs bring MORE skill to the store. It's proven by data. More people win fights when outnumbered, especially when enemies pew pew indecisively from 1000m like admiral Keppel at the Battle of Ushant (who was actually courtmartialed for lack of aggressiveness) .

Stay aggressive and you will love repairs. 

It is true but it is way better with the longer cd you added and nerfed repair mods.... before it was just no skill but spam repairs and repair mods.

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4 minutes ago, Landsman said:

It is true but it is way better with the longer cd you added and nerfed repair mods.... before it was just no skill but spam repairs and repair mods.


Yeah that's true. OP is old now. Been 3 or so patches since I posted.

I think values still need editing abit. Sail repair is in my opinion way to fast.
and rum is way OTT
 

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6 minutes ago, Landsman said:

It is true but it is way better with the longer cd you added and nerfed repair mods.... before it was just no skill but spam repairs and repair mods.

i think they could be increased again, but i want to be careful.. Remember we dont hear about repairs from winners.. they love them. The problem is that people don't understand that being aggressive negates all repairs. You cant recover from massive damage. And you can achieve massive damage only if you focus fire and stay aggressive.
 

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Watch this beauty (timestamp 2-16-16) 

https://youtu.be/UHnvTlj00TQ?t=8176

British stayed far - were losing ships, but then brave santisima and agamemnon said **** it and got close got close like nelson ordered and one shotted a 74!!!!!
amazing moment

No repairs would help here.

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11 minutes ago, admin said:

Watch this beauty (timestamp 2-16-16) 

https://youtu.be/UHnvTlj00TQ?t=8176

British stayed far - were losing ships, but then brave santisima and agamemnon said **** it and got close got close like nelson ordered and one shotted a 74!!!!!
amazing moment

No repairs would help here.

Note OP was focused at Rum issues :) Hull rep isn't that OP like you say. Decisive focus fire does the job.

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4 minutes ago, Capt Jubal Early said:

Note OP was focused at Rum issues :) Hull rep isn't that OP like you say. Decisive focus fire does the job.

what rum issues? CD is 25 min

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1 minute ago, rediii said:

what rum issues? CD is 25 min

...... CD might be 25mins but resurrecting 400 crew with it is mental. Over the course of a battle you can revive more than your ships crew. It should be scaled.

Read OP next time please :) 

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Repairs are fairly good right now, they can be raised a little bit, but they are still fine. If you don't sink a ship but damage it fairly enough it's out of the game for round about 25 minutes, in that time you can either go for sails if you focus the damaged ship or focus other ships. Noobs just don't know how to use reps to win a fight and that is why they hate the system. 

Edited by Never Surrender
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@admin How on earth do you think you can "Stay close and focus fire" on the hull of a tanky Endy with a PRINCE?? It does zero damage to the sides even from close.and if we were close to the hull we would have been sunk in 3 seconds by the endy..... What planet are you living on??

We were aggressive. The agga was up close and personal the whole time. we closed to point blank for rakes when the stern was down.

Clearly I understand that repairs were part of naval engagements. Clearly I understand that casualties are not kills, but NOT 100% repairs. Ships left the line to repair and come back etc, yes. BUT this ship was under constant fire and constantly engaged and yet REPEATEDLY came back to 100% sails.

Saying we were not aggressive when we actively chose the fight and pursued and closely engaged and all sank is pretty much offensive. If we had plinked away from miles away, we would not have sunk as we would have been out of Endy range and could have escaped easily.

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So the aga was alongside the endy At effective broadside-range? 

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2 minutes ago, Tac said:

So the aga was alongside the endy At effective broadside-range? 

Yes the whole time as much as he could. He is a good player with plenty of experience.

An Aga has more firepower and is bigger than an Endy, yet we could do nothing.

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9 minutes ago, VonVolks said:

How on earth do you think you can "Stay close and focus fire" on the hull of a tanky Endy with a PRINCE??

Given we sunk a Indefatigable with 2 schooners by hugging the sides I'd say it is possible. The 6 pounders did penetrate the Indefatigable sides at point blank.

Maybe the player didn't know the weaknesses of a schooners because never played them enough.

Really hard to quantify player knowledge.

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