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Hiding in battles to join PB discussion

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4 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

There has to be a way that doesn't exclude nations like Prussia from RvR. What chances would we have if we had just sailed there? We would get screened immediately. We would probably need 3 fleets to cap a port. The pb one, one for the screeners and another one just in case considering the population difference between us and the USA. If you take them away there is no chance we can cap a port with only a PB fleet.

Yes, i don't like those tactics either but there needs to be a way that it doesn't exclude lower population nations from RvR. 

Just my 2 cents :)

Funny enough, we had this thing called "Alliances," back in the day... 

The problem with an open world, dynamic MMO is that numbers should determine who wins.  Anything else is silly, gamey mechanics. If you want to play impossible-mode Prussia, then you need to figure out a way to either get numbers and compete, or occupy a space of the game where competition isn't high enough to wipe you out. Unlike @Jon Snow lets go I believe screening should absolutely be part of the game and that the better organized you are, the more players you get online, in the better outfitted ships: that should confer an advantage.

Smaller nations should have some perks to help balance things a little, but if you can't manage impossible-mode through careful diplomacy, strategic gameplay and/or skill, then you should be playing a nation with a safe zone.

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Whatever. I didn't join Prussia for the RvR anyway. The zerg rush shouldn't be the panacea for every problem though. Knock yourselves out :)

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12 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Or you can be intelligent enough to predict where they will hide in battle. Hiding too far away and allowing the fleet to be screened defeats the purpose.  

Scout better 

1 hour 20 minutes before the PB

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If you have a proper screening fleet then you should be on top of them within that two hour window or within enough time to enter the always-open battle and sink every last one of them. :) The problem I could foresee is two, full 25 man fleets of opposing, allied nations completely filling a battle to hide in.. but that could be Tribunable?

not closing battle is a fake feature because they can sail away 20 minutes, then you join 20 minutes behind them. Spawn doesnt move. Doesn't help making it moveable because you cna just sail in every direction and spread out

 

is it tribunable tho? WHy shouldnt I be allowed to have a 25vs25 battle where we shoot masts and then get out? That's a quite usual battle in NA

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6 minutes ago, rediii said:

not closing battle is a fake feature because they can sail away 20 minutes, then you join 20 minutes behind them. Spawn doesnt move. Doesn't help making it moveable because you cna just sail in every direction and spread out

 

is it tribunable tho? WHy shouldnt I be allowed to have a 25vs25 battle where we shoot masts and then get out? That's a quite usual battle in NA

It's not fake if you have scouts and a screening fleet in place to pounce. And note, I said tribunable in reference to tagging in alts, or deliberately filling battles with allied ships.

I'm not opposed to your original solution since I personally enjoy screening much more than port battles. I just find it ironic now that the shoe is on the other foot. ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It's not fake if you have scouts and a screening fleet in place to pounce. And note, I said tribunable in reference to tagging in alts, or deliberately filling battles with allied ships.

I'm not opposed to your original solution since I personally enjoy screening much more than port battles. I just find it ironic now that the shoe is on the other foot. ;) 

I'm not realy on the other foot. Sweden has less players than russia atm. If we attack you we would have a advantage by hiding in battles

 

My oppinion is also (in general, every mechanic) that mechanics should avoid tribunal things since it could escalate on multiple 2500 ppl servers and be too much work for the devs and therefore cost money :) 

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29 minutes ago, rediii said:

hI'm not realy on the other foot. Sweden has less players than russia atm. If we attack you we would have a advantage by hiding in battles

 

My oppinion is also (in general, every mechanic) that mechanics should avoid tribunal things since it could escalate on multiple 2500 ppl servers and be too much work for the devs and therefore cost money :) 

This topic along with responses from Devs and Moderators is already discussed in an open tribunal thread (see below). There is non-contestable video footage of the use of this tactic.

This thread started as a result of the recorded use of this tactic at Bahia Escocesa in November. The thread contains several suggested solutions  none of which appear to have been accepted or adopted by the Devs. The tribunal thread is still open. The response from Devs to the November posting, as far as I can see, is that anyone using this method is, and I quote, a "turning into trash arsehole dickmans", whatever that is.  No punishments have been forthcoming for anyone using this method to enter a PB. 

Buster (purveyor of dirty watches and sewer contents, open 7 days a week or when Mrs Buster allows). 

Edited by Busterbloodvessel

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12 minutes ago, Busterbloodvessel said:

This topic along with responses from Devs and Moderators is already discussed in an open tribunal thread (see below). There is non-contestable video footage of the use of this tactic.

This thread started as a result of the recorded use of this tactic at Bahia Escocesa in November. The thread contains several suggested solutions  none of which appear to have been accepted or adopted by the Devs. The tribunal thread is still open. The response from Devs to the November posting, as far as I can see, is that anyone using this method is, and I quote, a "turning into trash arsehole dickmans", whatever that is.  No punishments have been forthcoming for anyone using this method to enter a PB. 

Buster (purveyor of dirty watches and sewer contents, open 7 days a week or when Mrs Buster allows). 

I would welcome a fix more than the knowing that everyone using this method is (goldenquote!) "turning into trash arsehole dickmans"

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

The problem with an open world, dynamic MMO is that numbers should determine who wins.

I played ESO in the most dominant clan for a while. The system there was so flat (spam AOE spells as a group) that there was no skillcap. It was all about numbers. And it got super boring to be just a number in a TS with 70 other numbers.

NA has a great skillcap and if you are really good you can make a difference, thats the best part about the game.

Edited by Jon Snow lets go

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Just now, rediii said:

I would welcome a fix more than the knowing that everyone using this method is (goldenquote!) "turning into trash arsehole dickmans"

Agreed. To be fair the Devs do say that they would like to design it out.

 

Buster (two fingers in socket)

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2 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

We kept them in the battle untill the pb was over and our fleet in the PB got 1000 points. that is all. 

Not a problem at all with this.

Problem is constant tagging after a port battle fleet would escape the screening.

 

2 hours ago, rediii said:

You can after 3 minutes

If there are ships blocking the port against attackers its fair that hendoesnt get into the PB I think

But you get tagged again after 2 minutes ... constant screening will be the result.

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Screening fleets as such seem to be an enduring matter in this game. Those who have numbers can always have advantage, defending or attacking.

Me thinks, like esteemed members of this Forum on several occasions already suggested, that staged conquest could be a solution.

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1 hour ago, rediii said:

1 hour 20 minutes before the PB

The early bird gets the worm.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to show up early to a PB.  

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1 hour ago, Cortez said:

Screening fleets as such seem to be an enduring matter in this game. Those who have numbers can always have advantage, defending or attacking.

Me thinks, like esteemed members of this Forum on several occasions already suggested, that staged conquest could be a solution.

Staged as in lobby-based?  Why shouldn't numbers dictate power to a large (not necessarily absolute) degree?

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Screening (both offensive and defensive) is a valid tactic.

Suggestions:

No tow to port or ship tow requests to the port by anyone starting 3 hours before PB.

AI can not be attacked within zone starting 3 hours prior.

Starting 3 hours before PB, Battles within the area stay open until completed (sunk enemy or 1.5 hours)

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I have a brilliant solution! When the attacking fleet enters port battle REGION a new button appears, [Join PB]. When the players in the PB fleet press this button they enter the PB and spawns in a decent attack position close to the port. This would end the need for screening, and remove a zerg advantage in conquest. In theory it could still be possible to screen the attacking fleet before they get to the boarder, but this is a rather large area to cover..   

Would also be nice if the attack fleet spawn in a perfect line and the wind in these pbs are neutral, so skill have more effect on the end result than dumb luck.

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13 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

I have a brilliant solution! When the attacking fleet enters port battle REGION a new button appears, [Join PB]. When the players in the PB fleet press this button they enter the PB and spawns in a decent attack position close to the port. This would end the need for screening, and remove a zerg advantage in conquest. In theory it could still be possible to screen the attacking fleet before they get to the boarder, but this is a rather large area to cover..   

Would also be nice if the attack fleet spawn in a perfect line and the wind in these pbs are neutral, so skill have more effect on the end result than dumb luck.

As soon as you are in range on the port you can click it and join PB. Ofc you will start far away. Besides that no to that idea

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2 minutes ago, Coraline Vodka said:

As soon as you are in range on the port you can click it and join PB. Ofc you will start far away. Besides that no to that idea

English is not my native language, but you would get the option to join the pb before you see the port/land. It would remove the entire entry sail towards the port in OW and when you spawn in battle you would not be far away from the port. 

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43 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

I have a brilliant solution! When the attacking fleet enters port battle REGION a new button appears, [Join PB]. When the players in the PB fleet press this button they enter the PB and spawns in a decent attack position close to the port. This would end the need for screening, and remove a zerg advantage in conquest. In theory it could still be possible to screen the attacking fleet before they get to the boarder, but this is a rather large area to cover..   

Would also be nice if the attack fleet spawn in a perfect line and the wind in these pbs are neutral, so skill have more effect on the end result than dumb luck.

wind actually creates new situations everytime. I like it more than neutral wind like old pbs

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Screening, IMO, is basically a griefing mechanic. The whole goal is to use some cheap throw-away ships to keep the enemy out of the PB, so that you have an easy win/no battle in the PB itself. As others have said, even if you win the screening battle, you likely can't win the PB because it'll either be too late (timer to join is over), or your enemy already has a whole bunch of points accumulated inside the PB. That is a frustrating thing for the fleet that is being screened (losing a port because some crappy ships tagged you), and is honestly not that fun for the fleet doing the screening. The fighting for the port should happen in the PB, not in some silly lopsided battle outside. The numbers advantage a nation may have should come into play in the grinding up of hostility: see hostility going up, gather a big fleet to stop it.

For this reason, I personally preferred the old flag and timer system: pull a flag and run it to the port in under an hour. If your enemy cares about the port you're attacking, they'll have a fleet nearby they can use to fill the PB and maybe try to intercept your flag. There was rarely enough time to amass an effective screening fleet. Port timers ensured that flags could only be pulled in your clan's primetime, so it shouldn't be a problem to defend. If you don't have an outpost nearby to launch your fleet from, then you obviously didn't need the port and shouldn't have over-expanded. Only take what your clan can hold. Fake flags and multiple flags against the same clan could easily be solved with limits of how many flags can be pulled against a clan, and making the flags cost several hundred combat marks each to pull: successfully attacking the port (whether you win or lose) will see 1/2 of the combat marks returned to the person who pulled the flag. Another safeguard: to pull a flag, you have to be in a battle-group with at least 4 other players to buy the flag.

However, there were some people who didn't like the flag system, for various reasons. So, if we want to keep the current "grind AI for 1.5 hours, PB the next day" system (I don't like it, but whatever), then screening fleets need to be addressed. While it is a bit silly, the current  ways around the screening fleets (TP to the port, hide in battle), are effective short-term solutions to these griefing fleets. I'm not sure what the best long-term solution would be to prevent this griefing...maybe eliminate all ability to tag battle groups of 4 or more players for 30 minutes before the PB in a large radius around the port (maybe from the port to the horizon around it). This will mean that, to "screen" a PB, you need to stop hostility when it is going up, or intercept your enemy when they leave the port they sail from. It is not an ideal solution, but then again, I'm not certain that there is an easy solution to griefing/screening short of going to a lobby-based PB system (which brings another set of problems/solutions).

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6 minutes ago, William Death said:

Screening, IMO, is basically a griefing mechanic. The whole goal is to use some cheap throw-away ships to keep the enemy out of the PB, so that you have an easy win/no battle in the PB itself. As others have said, even if you win the screening battle, you likely can't win the PB because it'll either be too late (timer to join is over), or your enemy already has a whole bunch of points accumulated inside the PB. That is a frustrating thing for the fleet that is being screened (losing a port because some crappy ships tagged you), and is honestly not that fun for the fleet doing the screening. The fighting for the port should happen in the PB, not in some silly lopsided battle outside. The numbers advantage a nation may have should come into play in the grinding up of hostility: see hostility going up, gather a big fleet to stop it.

For this reason, I personally preferred the old flag and timer system: pull a flag and run it to the port in under an hour. If your enemy cares about the port you're attacking, they'll have a fleet nearby they can use to fill the PB and maybe try to intercept your flag. There was rarely enough time to amass an effective screening fleet. Port timers ensured that flags could only be pulled in your clan's primetime, so it shouldn't be a problem to defend. If you don't have an outpost nearby to launch your fleet from, then you obviously didn't need the port and shouldn't have over-expanded. Only take what your clan can hold. Fake flags and multiple flags against the same clan could easily be solved with limits of how many flags can be pulled against a clan, and making the flags cost several hundred combat marks each to pull: successfully attacking the port (whether you win or lose) will see 1/2 of the combat marks returned to the person who pulled the flag. Another safeguard: to pull a flag, you have to be in a battle-group with at least 4 other players to buy the flag.

However, there were some people who didn't like the flag system, for various reasons. So, if we want to keep the current "grind AI for 1.5 hours, PB the next day" system (I don't like it, but whatever), then screening fleets need to be addressed. While it is a bit silly, the current  ways around the screening fleets (TP to the port, hide in battle), are effective short-term solutions to these griefing fleets. I'm not sure what the best long-term solution would be to prevent this griefing...maybe eliminate all ability to tag battle groups of 4 or more players for 30 minutes before the PB in a large radius around the port (maybe from the port to the horizon around it). This will mean that, to "screen" a PB, you need to stop hostility when it is going up, or intercept your enemy when they leave the port they sail from. It is not an ideal solution, but then again, I'm not certain that there is an easy solution to griefing/screening short of going to a lobby-based PB system (which brings another set of problems/solutions).

screening is no griefing mechanic anymore since battlegroups and BR shield is a thing.

Atm its a solid mechanic that is logical and fun actually. It also includes more than 20 people into conquest

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3 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

English is not my native language, but you would get the option to join the pb before you see the port/land. It would remove the entire entry sail towards the port in OW and when you spawn in battle you would not be far away from the port. 

You want a lobby based port battle mode. Maybe they will include it in NAL

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I would be happy to get rid of instanced battles altogether, although I know this is unrealistic. But it would solve so many problems.

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10 minutes ago, BPHick said:

I would be happy to get rid of instanced battles altogether, although I know this is unrealistic. But it would solve so many problems.

That would indeed be amazing, my thought would be when you enter a region it turns into a battle instance but that would take alot of work and I'm sure could be exploited somehow

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3 hours ago, BPHick said:

I would be happy to get rid of instanced battles altogether, although I know this is unrealistic. But it would solve so many problems.

 

2 hours ago, Coraline Vodka said:

That would indeed be amazing, my thought would be when you enter a region it turns into a battle instance but that would take alot of work and I'm sure could be exploited somehow

In IL2 and other flying combat games, dozens of planes take off from several different airfields miles and miles away from each other. We search each  other out and fight without going into a battle instance. I guess NA uses battle instances because then real world travel time would be way too long. I for one would like a smaller map with zero time compression just to get rid of tagging and battle instances. 

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