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WASA why so over powered?


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22 hours ago, admin said:

impossible - constitution was like the third ship added to game. we love the uss constitution.
its just new ships sometimes make old ships unbalanced. but the combat update will also be applied. Consti will get its hp/thickness buffs (as well as indefatigable).

how about a gun load out buff. make the connie truly unique in the game by allowing her to have all 42 carros on both decks. Carros are very hard to use. there was a time when that build woulda been extremely OP but as it stands right now I don't think that would be to much due to how hard it is to effectively use carros. especially considering the amount of double shot players get (which punishes carro users very bad). also the carros on the connie would be historically accurate if I remember correctly that was her last combat refit, carro 42s all around. 

Edited by King of Crowns
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On 29-12-2017 at 4:50 PM, Hethwill said:

She has a tremendous broadside weight. Given she uses the best recorded guns setup why aren't others also ? Surprise i'm looking at you ? Where have your 12s gone to.... !? ;) ... maybe something could be reviewed... just saying...

No need to go through all the sources again, Wasa is more than a capable 4th rate but was never built to act as a "super frigate" when compared to the Constitution for example.

She was a ship of the line of battle. Same as the Ingermaland, same as a Wappen. I trust the savvy fellows of the records and archives but something tells me that she woudln't compare to a similar rate ship build for chase in the high seas ( like the Connie ;) )

i even go further than that (and even i do not go true the sources again)

you say, Same as the Ingermaland, same as a Wappen."" well i did a test and saw that it even is situated between the victory and the bucentaur when it is equipped with all the Russian upgrades :ph34r:

(Test result was that a Bellona was completely destroyed and demasted within 3 minutes and 30 seconds to zero points[sides/ masts/ sail [was a give away of 55 pvp marks])

we had/have this situation too  long and it even forced people away and therefore they call the game total crap,

of course, it is for testing, but you always can exaggerate (not buildable and only obtainable by notes [ victory points])

even if you compare it (for the sise vs   speed  ) it is a better speed  than the lynx 

that's why i call it the devil,  and never sail this ship (oh boy what will the spoiled brads yell after the correct parameters are installed )

happy days are over 

wasa in this form is just a modern destroyer on steroids completely out of time frame with upgrade cheats and strange[read hidden parameters] situations

and what did we get out of it...... well a lot of frustration and nothing more.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to dev and i just want to say it openly because def did it to (in the post where Russians slaughter people with the devil)

if people give warning to you, about  something that needs to be addressed in private and later on you openly on forums brags about it 

what is a contrast of the situation (or you know more, what we dont, that needs better communication)

you don't get it..... and completely ridicule your own customers and insult them by doing so (also > telling that old can die, and it is not an issue,..>  the young will infest and buy and do not know the difference)

pulling a long finger to us testers and bragging on cheaters with nice good upgrades what most, not possess is a clear example how you act in real life and will build your game

many questions are said many questions did not get an answer where some are extremely important to your customers,  i only would say get your act together and get two feet on the ground and keep them there

instead of ridicule problems as if they are not there...

we still don't know what is the next update is and where the UI stands/is atm you leave the testers out of the big picture what i consider also as bad behavior to your fellow sailors

 

ohw and some advise: if you tell people you don't do it for the money, just tell them also you are a millionaire... or you need a shrink....   

 

yes dutch tell it straight in the face its there nature sorry for that

 

Edit: font sice it was altered by mods and put it back to normal sice  so  every old guy can read it to..:D

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thonys
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11 minutes ago, Malachi said:

May I ask what do you think is out of the time frame for the Wasa?

that is about strength( metaphor.. modern ships / compaired to old ships just a way of saying)[its the bismarck in NA sailing against wapen von hamburg in  NA]

Edited by Thonys
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While I totally agree that she needs to nerfed for gameplay reason (best by reducing her 24s to 18s), I have to say she´s one of the ships that´s most accurately portrayed in-game.

 

If you want ships that behave like their RL counterparts, no one in their right mind would want to sail a Santi in her 140-gun config or a Surprise.

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28 minutes ago, Malachi said:

While I totally agree that she needs to nerfed for gameplay reason (best by reducing her 24s to 18s), I have to say she´s one of the ships that´s most accurately portrayed in-game.

 

If you want ships that behave like their RL counterparts, no one in their right mind would want to sail a Santi in her 140-gun config or a Surprise.

well i would even go further than that 

sure ....she can keep the 24 

but  to be accurate she will topple over in a turn, just for gameplay,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the devil is cursed -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- that is why they removed the upper deck of some ships (*guess who)

- major design building flaws( Knackebrod design) [yes we dont do it for the money def ]

 

sorry for the stcky underwater

IMG_2357-1024x682.jpg

Edited by Thonys
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38 minutes ago, Thonys said:

well i would even go further than that 

sure ....she can keep the 24 

but  to be accurate she will topple over in a turn, just for gameplay,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the devil is cursed -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- that is why they removed the upper deck of some ships (*guess who)

- major design building flaws( Knackebrod design) [yes we dont do it for the money def ]

 

sorry for the stcky underwater

IMG_2357-1024x682.jpg

Why would she tip over, if you look at many of the US SOL's they all had 32's on multi decks and didn't have an issue.  I actually would love to see one US SOL in game that has dual decks of 32's, but most fall right out of the time line.

The Wasa was actually designed to have a low center of gravity so it could carry the more heavy guns than normal for a ship of it's size. 

If we all want to be more accurate we should remove 42's from all ships except the Victory and put only 36's on the other 2nd and 1st rates that actually carried them.  

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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4 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Why would she tip over, if you look at many of the US SOL's they all had 32's on multi decks and didn't have an issue.  I actually would love to see one US SOL in game that has dual decks of 32's, but most fall right out of the time line.

The water building up on the deck quickly exceeded the ship's minimal ability to right itself, and water continued to pour in until it ran down into the hold; the ship quickly sank to a depth of 32 m (105 ft) only 120 m (390 ft) from shore. Survivors clung to debris or the upper masts, which were still above the surface, to save themselves, and many nearby boats rushed to their aid, but despite these efforts and the short distance to land, 30 people perished with the shi

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

- that is why they removed the upper deck of some ships (*guess who)

- major design building flaws( Knackebrod design) [yes we dont do it for the money def ]

 

sorry for the stcky underwater

Sorry, but what you´re talking about? Which ships had their upper deck removed?

The Wasa/Cronprins Adolphs were very stiff ships and certainly didn´t have stability problems.

 

EDIT:

Quote

The water building up on the deck quickly exceeded the ship's minimal ability to right itself, and water continued to pour in until it ran down into the hold; the ship quickly sank to a depth of 32 m (105 ft) only 120 m (390 ft) from shore. Survivors clung to debris or the upper masts, which were still above the surface, to save themselves, and many nearby boats rushed to their aid, but despite these efforts and the short distance to land, 30 people perished with the shi

You do realise thats´not the Wasa we have in-game, right?

Edited by Malachi
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2 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Sorry, but what you´re talking about? Which ships had their upper deck removed?

The Wasa/Cronprins Adolphs were very stiff ships and certainly didn´t have stability problems.

 

EDIT:

You do realise thats´not the Wasa we have in-game, right?

whats in the name  right!

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1 hour ago, Malachi said:

Sorry, but what you´re talking about? Which ships had their upper deck removed?

The Wasa/Cronprins Adolphs were very stiff ships and certainly didn´t have stability problems.

 

EDIT:

You do realise thats´not the Wasa we have in-game, right?

NOt sure as that was part of Thony's post, but I think he was talking about RAZED ships where they took a SOL and removed it's top deck to make a 4/5th rate.   Indefatigable is one of these ships.

1 hour ago, Thonys said:

whats in the name  right!

Oh about 200 years of design changes apparently.  LOL

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4 hours ago, Malachi said:

While I totally agree that she needs to nerfed for gameplay reason (best by reducing her 24s to 18s), I have to say she´s one of the ships that´s most accurately portrayed in-game.

 

If you want ships that behave like their RL counterparts, no one in their right mind would want to sail a Santi in her 140-gun config or a Surprise.

Her 13kt/10.5kt performance was recorded with reduced armament, right? 24s and 18s?

 

That's the answer. Just like Endymion, her speed needs scripting to make it dependent on armament. Moreso than the usual weight consideration in the game.

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Quote

Her 13kt/10.5kt performance was recorded with reduced armament, right? 24s and 18s?

Nope, 10 3/4 / 13 were the speeds recorded in sailing trails of the Gustav Adolph in 1787 and she carried 24s/36s since her launch.

Edited by Malachi
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I've heard several people say the in game model of the WASA is an accurate representaion of the real thing and of that  time period.

If this is true (I'm not an expert) then I wouldn't want it nerfed. The realizism in this game is it's soul. BUT can it not stay the same but maybe go the way of the santa cicilia? Or the rattlesnake? Couldn't the really badass ships be put in a special category and hard as heck to obtain? This way 90% of the ships in game won't all be WASA'S!

This seems like the best option. But please please please don't make "elite" ships obtainable thru PVP marks! That's rediculous.

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49 minutes ago, Sea Fox said:

I've heard several people say the in game model of the WASA is an accurate representaion of the real thing and of that  time period.

If this is true (I'm not an expert) then I wouldn't want it nerfed. The realizism in this game is it's soul. BUT can it not stay the same but maybe go the way of the santa cicilia? Or the rattlesnake? Couldn't the really badass ships be put in a special category and hard as heck to obtain? This way 90% of the ships in game won't all be WASA'S!

This seems like the best option. But please please please don't make "elite" ships obtainable thru PVP marks! That's rediculous.

This is why I'm more for a BR change and than buff the old 4th rates back to there old pre nerf stats is a better way to balance the game.  Most the ones that want to nerf it to death got owned by a good player and just think it's OP.   We took one 1vs 1 with a Bellona last night so folks saying a Bellona has no chance prob don't know how to sail there ships.  Was the guy a good sailor?  I would say he was average, but our Bellona is a pretty good hand.   Demasted and boarded him three times before he could beat him and here is the kicker.  The Bellona was speed built compared to a kinda tanky Wasa.  He used his speed to keep angle shots upon his hull and to take adavantage of the wind/leeway and demast the Wasa.   To be honest I think the only reason it's some what OP is cause of the skill of many that play it.  Not truely cause of it's stats.  

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22 hours ago, Thonys said:
  1. 1 Russian upgrades :ph34r:
  2. 2 wasa in this form is just a modern destroyer on steroids completely out of time frame with upgrade cheats and strange[read hidden parameters] situations
  3. 3 to dev and i just want to say it openly because def did it to (in the post where Russians slaughter people with the devil)
  4. 4 completely ridicule your own customers and insult them by doing so (also > telling that old can die, and it is not an issue,..>  the young will infest and buy and do not know the difference)
  5. pulling a long finger to us testers and bragging on cheaters with nice good upgrades what most, not possess is a clear example how you act in real life and will build your game
  6. ohw and some advise: if you tell people you don't do it for the money, just tell them also you are a millionaire... or you need a shrink....   

 

yes dutch tell it straight in the face its there nature sorry for that

 

Moderation team tells it straight too :)
You have broken multiple rules in this post.

Minor things

  1. Calling new year experimental cannons gifted to a new year (unicorn guns/licorne guns) Russian upgrades? 
  2. Claiming things that do not exit - hidden parameters: players see everything and there are no hidden parameters
  3. Everyone knows that its professional players that get excellent results in PVP not only the russians. Your bias is racist and racism is against the rules of this forum and against steam eula too.
  4. Here you claim that developers said : old can die and its not the issue; completely rephrasing the words and twisting their meaning. Developers did not say what you posted. They said that old players of course will be upset of removal of things they got used to, new players . In the future quote the phrase and do not rely on TS or private discussions to quote if you really want to quote. 

Major rules broken

  1. Developers never bragged on cheaters. Not good
  2. Personal attack and discussion of real life situations

Lack of respect
Trolling
Shitposting
Off topic
Discussion of moderation or developers

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

This is why I'm more for a BR change and than buff the old 4th rates back to there old pre nerf stats is a better way to balance the game.  Most the ones that want to nerf it to death got owned by a good player and just think it's OP.   We took one 1vs 1 with a Bellona last night so folks saying a Bellona has no chance prob don't know how to sail there ships.  Was the guy a good sailor?  I would say he was average, but our Bellona is a pretty good hand.   Demasted and boarded him three times before he could beat him and here is the kicker.  The Bellona was speed built compared to a kinda tanky Wasa.  He used his speed to keep angle shots upon his hull and to take adavantage of the wind/leeway and demast the Wasa.   To be honest I think the only reason it's some what OP is cause of the skill of many that play it.  Not truely cause of it's stats.  

There are a few problems I see with your argument. 

1) Your premise that all captains who feel the Wasa are overperforming are poor captains is based on a single test. One in which the better captain is in the non-Wasa vessel. This is a small and flawed sample size to base so large an insult on. 

2) The Wasa in the single experiment you did mention, was a poor choice to face a speed bellona. A true test between ships would be based on an equal build/mods etc. You mention the Bellona used the wind advantage, and any Wasa captain worth his salt knows that the Wasa can easily gain weather gage on a Bellona based on their sailing profiles, particularly if the ships are similarly built/modded. 

My conclusion here is that a single combat with dissimilar builds with captains of admittedly different skill should not be used to insult a rather large amount of captains. People's opinions are worth more respect than this. Good day to you.

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3 minutes ago, Churlish said:

There are a few problems I see with your argument. 

1) Your premise that all captains who feel the Wasa are overperforming are poor captains is based on a single test. One in which the better captain is in the non-Wasa vessel. This is a small and flawed sample size to base so large an insult on. 

 

Wasa is a third rate, developers class it as 4th because they use the British system of classing by number of guns.
https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=10981

It is not overpowered for a third rate. Third rates were queens of the sea. 

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7 minutes ago, Sailor said:

Wasa is a third rate, developers class it as 4th because they use the British system of classing by number of guns.
https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=10981

It is not overpowered for a third rate. Third rates were queens of the sea. 

This may be. It may or may not be overpowered or imbalanced but that wasn't quite my point, and likely the devs will be the ones who will make this determination. However, I do take issue with flawed experiments and inductive reasoning to be used as a basis for insults and propping up a self-absorbed sense of elitism.

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11 minutes ago, Churlish said:

There are a few problems I see with your argument. 

1) Your premise that all captains who feel the Wasa are overperforming are poor captains is based on a single test. One in which the better captain is in the non-Wasa vessel. This is a small and flawed sample size to base so large an insult on. 

2) The Wasa in the single experiment you did mention, was a poor choice to face a speed bellona. A true test between ships would be based on an equal build/mods etc. You mention the Bellona used the wind advantage, and any Wasa captain worth his salt knows that the Wasa can easily gain weather gage on a Bellona based on their sailing profiles, particularly if the ships are similarly built/modded. 

My conclusion here is that a single combat with dissimilar builds with captains of admittedly different skill should not be used to insult a rather large amount of captains. People's opinions are worth more respect than this. Good day to you.

See your points are flawed.  

I have unlocked Wasa on my second char.   So I have fought in both ships.  My main prefers the Aggy over the Wasa cause I like how it handled before the merge and current patches.  The problem is you guys forgets that 99% of the game isn't elite players.  Hell 70% of the game doesn't even get on these forums.  Most of the guys and I say most cause I know them from Global that have been making these WASA OP post are guys that could hardly manual sail there own arse out of irons are spend most of the battle running in there speed ships.  Of course if they take a Fir/Fir Ship against something with a heavy broad side of a ship of that type.  

I have over 7K hours in this game on my main and 4K on my alts, I done a lot of testing of ships so it's not just one example.  Hell just look at my post count  I think I"m like around the top 5-10 players on post.   Up until recently when I started working again I played a lot of hours in this game.  That was just one example I stated on here.   The fact is that is it's a powerful ship that needs to be moved to a better spot that matches it's BR and maybe some minor tweaks to it's stats.  It does not need to be nerfed to death.  Any one notice when a few of us state fix the BR none of the guys complaining say anything about port battles?  Instead they still say, "Well it will still be to powerful in OW."   Well than maybe bring bigger ships or ships not made of fir fir.  If you bring SOLO's don't sail them solo.   Don't be an idiot when you out number and go at the player one at a time.   Support the other players in your battle.  To many folks die cause they only care about there own ships and hides and they leave the other players up the creek and run.

 

8 minutes ago, Sailor said:

Wasa is a third rate, developers class it as 4th because they use the British system of classing by number of guns.
https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=10981

It is not overpowered for a third rate. Third rates were queens of the sea. 

And this is why many of us think that it needs a BR bump.  Can still keep it a 4th rate but bring the BR up to match the 3rd rates cause of it's broad side weight, but ships like the Connie and Aggy need there old stats back and than do a proper BR balance between them.  Even the Ingermanland and Wappen need some love too.  Don't nerf ships cause older ships are under power.  Bring the old ships back to there proper power level to balance things out.  I bet you most of these guys that think the Wasa is OP wasn't away when then Wappen, Aggy and Connie first came out and every one thought they where OP too.  It's just a balance issue is all.  OW shouldn't matter about BR cause any one can use what ever they want.  This just helps balance them in port battles is all.

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