Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Patch 14: Part 3 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, admin said:

wtf? hex editor? for a server based game?

lets do this.. do that thing you are talking about. Increase your speed for example to a 1000 knots in a battle instance and post your sailing adventures here on the forum.
Its a simplest way to prove to you that people who spread lies about cheating in NA have no clue. 
 

Some of the folks in this game blow my mind. I remember we got a copy of a port battle recording of the other nation we just did a port battle with (US if any one wants to know).  I was listening to it and they mention how I brought my iron wood ships no one could pen (LO, Stiffness, Hull build Aggy's and Victs) and how I could always pen them and they couldn't pen me (DOUBLE Charge and learning to angle your ship when fired upon).   Than near the end they mention about getting DC in battle and one guy says he always used a VNP to get into game so they can't dedos him and use lag switch on him.  DO THESE GUYS EVEN KNOW WHAT A LAG SWITCH IS.  I mean we where cracking up so much how these guy used every excuse as to why they lost the fight other than actual fact they brought store bought ships to a port battle.  They where in three different team speaks and couldn't organized crap and than last they are using other ways into the game than direct connect and wonder why they lag out or get DCed.   When most the time they get beat by folks that learn the game, learn the mechanics and than use the to the best of there teams abilities.

This is also why we have said things in Global Chat about using our pirate hacks, you have to activate them with the pray button (yes folks thought we actually had pirate hacks).  Never believe anything I say in Global chat when I'm trolling you, cause that exactly what I'm doing. It's like when I had a BUCC the day after wipe. I said I had a buck in my pocket and we went with that as a joke that I had the ship.  Folks actually thought my clan had Buccs and Victory's the day of the wipe.  Yes I had a 3rd rate within a week and we had some 1st rates the next week, but we didn't have them on day one.....some folks will use any excuse to explain there short failings lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, admin said:

the statements 

  • the in game leeway has the same strength at any wind angle
  • there should not be any leeway at running speed whatsoever (running range is huge)

are both incorrect

 

So what are the Unity curves like for an LGV? How much leeway should there be at 130 degrees?

Because we can't test anything if we're just told that the results of our tests are "wrong." How do the devs measure and test leeway? With a debug tool that traces the ship's path?

 

Quote

Leeway changes depending on hull position and wind power and wind angle. And there is some leeway at running speed because running angle definition is too wide to be exact. Running angle has less leeway than close hauled and broad reach, but it still happens because due to nature of the age of sail ship keel cannot convert all wind power into forward force - if an angle is involved in any force some of could leak to the side (simple vector physics)

Sailing close-hauled you are relying on lift created by the sails, like an airplane. When the wind is abaft the beam (broad reach etc), you are relying on drag created by the sails. No one worries about leeway when sailing downwind IRL. Compared to upwind sailing, the sideforce vector is almost in line with the hull. And then a tiny bit of that 'leaks.'

lUED7LG.jpg

In this picture, I have sagged about 20 feet to leeward while sailing less than 200 feet forwards. Around 10 degrees of leeway and that is excessive. Most ships should only make 10+ degrees when close-hauled in considerable wind and swell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, admin said:

i have even easier explanation of this bug with the speedometer
imagine a helicopter flying 0 kmh forward (forward force)
but flying 3km h upwards (side force)

our speedometer tries to visualize it in one number
when helicopter, still flying up, moves 10 m forward from the center point it shows 3.01 positive speed. it is 3.01kmh from the center point)
when helicopter, still flying up moves 10 m backwards from the old center point it shows -3.01 negative speed. it is still 3.01 but it shows negative because its opposite direction from the old center point. From the old point it is an opposite direction and distance passed by the helicopter is 3+/-01.

  • If you look at the helicopter form above it only moved 10m forward and 10 back (old speedometer)
  • but it also flew 3km up which speedometer does not know how to show so it shows it as positive or negative depending on change of direction from the starting point
  • as a result speedometer shows 3.01 when helicopter flies 10m forward while moving up 3km/h up and shows -3.01when it moves 10m back. because its the distance passed in 2 dimensions. 

Not exactly what you are trying to say?

Helicopters have several "speed" gauges.  They have a climb/decent meter, a slip angle gauge and a speedometer with different settings, for different altitudes... like AGL, TRU, and ASL. 

Helicopters would be a BAD analogy for sailing. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, maturin said:

So what are the Unity curves like for an LGV? How much leeway should there be at 130 degrees?

Because we can't test anything if we're just told that the results of our tests are "wrong." How do the devs measure and test leeway? With a debug tool that traces the ship's path?

I don't know what you have tested though.. Leeway at broad reach is higher than leeway at running. It also depends on the sail plan. ships with higher % of stay sails will have a different angle of max leeway. But its definitely not equal at all points of sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, admin said:

I don't know what you have tested though.. Leeway at broad reach is higher than leeway at running. It also depends on the sail plan. ships with higher % of stay sails will have a different angle of max leeway. But its definitely not equal at all points of sail.

I'm sure it's not equal.

All I'm saying is that the observable differences are small, from the player's perspective.

Too small, it seems to me, but all I can do is fiddle with the Home camera.

 

For instance, IRL changing course from 45 to 90 halves your leeway, or thereabouts. As a rule of thumb, leeway decreases 'linearly.' So by the time you get to 135 degrees, it barely exists.

Modern writers don't even talk about leeway on a broad reach, because it just doesn't matter anymore.

5-10 degrees of leeway was considered typical for a close-hauled 18th century square rigger in moderate conditions.

Cruising Sailboat Leeway Angles (beating (B) or reaching (R))
Sailboat type Wind 3-10 knots Wind 11-21 knots Wind 22-33 knots Wind >33 knots
Shoal draft cruisers B:10º / R:5º B:8º / R:4º B:12º / R:10º B:20º / R:12º
Deep draft
cruisers
B:6º / R:4º B:4º / R:2º B:6º / R:4º B:12º / R:6º
Extra large cruisers B:10º / R:4º B:8º / R:4º B:12º / R:12º B:20º / R:15º

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maturin said:

 

For instance, IRL changing course from 45 to 90 halves your leeway, or thereabouts. As a rule of thumb, leeway decreases 'linearly.' So by the time you get to 135 degrees, it barely exists.

 

Yes it decreases.  the amount of leeway needs to be tuned of course. Current leeway might be too high compared to combat reports 
maybe you can share more reports like the one on wasa here for better tuning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I play on PVE server and the NPC ship are 90 of the time to perfect they seem not effect by these changes. they stop dead and instantly back up at speed also they stop and start sinking your sail down and depowered well keeping pace just keeps going or raise sails and back away as they sink now .can you make this game any more stupid and still not add any new content .in PVE there are no small first rate fleets in open word for a single player to attack or ever second rate fleets . you waste everyones time with these realistic changes that no one cares about in a game that is so unrealistic of the time with out any content to boot . I believe you DEVS ARE LOST AT SEA. with this game 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, admin said:

Yes it decreases.  the amount of leeway needs to be tuned of course. Current leeway might be too high compared to combat reports 
maybe you can share more reports like the one on wasa here for better tuning. 

Unfortunately I only have a few 'benchmarks.'

Leeway:

Niger-class and Lowestoffe-class (12-pounder frigates from 1760s) were reported to be very weatherly. This meant 3 degrees of leeway when close-hauled, 'all sails drawing.'

More typical angles for a ship, however, would be between 5 degrees and 12 degrees.

Leeway is greatest in rough weather, due to wave actions as much as wind. 20-25 degrees or so.

Quote

"A ship is supposed to make leeway only when she is close-hauled and a rough sea on."

-A New Treatise on the Practice of Navigation at Sea (William Thoms)

No one ever reports the leeway they make on a broad reach, because it is negligible.

 

In terms of turning, I have only seen Chapman and the French ever time their ships during maneuvers.

We know that the best frigates can tack in their own length (turning circle <150 feet) and wear in 4 times their own length (turning circle <600 feet).

French 80-gun ship sailing at 7 knots, tacking in 6.5 minutes.

Whaling ship Charles W. Morgan (in 2015) tacking in about 2.5 minutes in a light breeze.

Chapman's 40-gun frigate sailing at 6 knots, tacking in 4 minutes (this was considered disappointing).

Replica ship L'Hermione reported tacking in 4 minutes.

Wasa was recorded to have both tacked and wore round in 2.5 minutes (I am skeptical about wearing so fast. Maybe the cursive was hard to read.)

French 74-gun ships reported (IIRC) wearing in 10 minutes or more.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bottom represented on the screen (which looks very nice) in battle is not the actual bottom for physical interaction with the ship.  Yesterday I got "stuck" on the bottom even though I could see that there was still plenty of water under my ship!  Full sail with favorable wind and my ship would not move, and was actually getting pushed over on its side as if it was beached.  I was actually in battle at the same spot a few days before and did not get stuck like this with the same bottom clearance.  I did F11 it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lee is very intense at the brigs level, it doesn't correlate somehow and the effect is very visible when at beam, like the ship wouldn't have a keel somehow.

Was having fun in the Navy Brig testing it and definitely needs a review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

stop whining everybody, the game gets better and bigger every month. seriously I am already happy that they didn't pull the plug on this game so, be thankful for what you got for once...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 14 patch experimental additions enhance the sailing qualities a lot.  I like them, a wonderful progress.

What I miss most at this moment is a stepless, infinitely variable setting for the sails. Or mabe the ability to set each sail individually.

Would that be possible, and desirable here? Thanks for the work!


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One change I noticed for today's patch is variable wind direction in instanced battles (not PB's). Looks like the wind moves through ~90 degrees for 8 min, hols for 8, then moves again for 8. Mine went ccw, hold, cw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Revenant said:

The 14 patch experimental additions enhance the sailing qualities a lot.  I like them, a wonderful progress.

What I miss most at this moment is a stepless, infinitely variable setting for the sails. Or mabe the ability to set each sail individually.

Would that be possible, and desirable here? Thanks for the work!



 

I think we're at about the right level of manual sailing options based on the limited amount of detailed feedback we can get from our sailing choices. There's a finite amount of "feel" we can get from how the ship is sailing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Farrago said:

I think we're at about the right level of manual sailing options based on the limited amount of detailed feedback we can get from our sailing choices. There's a finite amount of "feel" we can get from how the ship is sailing. 

but some of the sail settings don't make a whole lot of sense (at least to the casual observer), like having staysails  furled but square sails set when sailing close hauled. Or not being able to control the spanker independently of the aft-most square yards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2017 at 4:26 AM, Odol said:

Not exactly what you are trying to say?

Helicopters have several "speed" gauges.  They have a climb/decent meter, a slip angle gauge and a speedometer with different settings, for different altitudes... like AGL, TRU, and ASL. 

Helicopters would be a BAD analogy for sailing. 

 

 

Ironic that a helicopter analogy is being used.

Snow reminds me of being seated in a helicopter piloted by a student, heavy handed at the controls especially rudder causing excessive yaw/slip. 

Early days though and best of luck with the fine tuning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@admin we should be able to raise hostility outside of the port battle timer window as set by the port holder. Assuming the holder of the port has set the window to the best time for them to defend a port, what's wrong with being able to raise the hostility outside of that time, they still get to defend in a PB at at time convenient to them? In my mind not being able to grind for hostility outside of the PB window is just reducing content for a lot of players around the world in different time zones now we have one global server. The hostility grind is tedious, its the PB people want so why not make it so the PB can happen. As said the defenders will still have the window set for the time that suits them for a PB!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎28‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 12:51 PM, admin said:

Update 30 Dec 2017

  • Wind now changes in all instances, not only port battles

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PaladinFX said:

@admin we should be able to raise hostility outside of the port battle timer window as set by the port holder. Assuming the holder of the port has set the window to the best time for them to defend a port, what's wrong with being able to raise the hostility outside of that time, they still get to defend in a PB at at time convenient to them? In my mind not being able to grind for hostility outside of the PB window is just reducing content for a lot of players around the world in different time zones now we have one global server. The hostility grind is tedious, its the PB people want so why not make it so the PB can happen. As said the defenders will still have the window set for the time that suits them for a PB!

no plans for that. Hostility is raised in a window set by defenders, so defenders can try to react and get it down by PVP. 

Hostility grind is not really tedious as 3 groups can set the pb in like 15 mins to 100% for any port. (in eve online you have to grind for days)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like something else changed, leeway effect seemed much more intense today, or maybe thats just because I played after a few glasses of wine O.o 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, admin said:

(in eve online you have to grind for days)

Yes! Stuff that shit in their face and let them eat it. Wonderful, perfect EVE, sweet schadenfreude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for finishing the new model and bringing virtual realism to the point :)

Thank you for balancing your priorities between PvP-balancing, overall gameplay and realism.

Also of course, thank you for the nice gifts! I'll give the "unicorns" a try :D

Please keep up your great work!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×