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Forthcoming patch 14 Part 3

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19 hours ago, Archaos said:

Can someone please explain what is happening in this picture, I keep seeing it being posted up but quite frankly it is ridiculous without the full context. The arrows in the river are they supposed to be wind or current, because if its wind then why is it changing as you go through the channel. To me it looks more like how current would behave in a restricted channel.

What the picture does not show is where the wind is coming from. You also note at one stage they are using an anchor to swing with no sails up. These may all be feasible maneuvers in a real ship but this is not possible in NA, so I do not know why it keeps getting posted. 

The wind is coming from the left-hand side of the picture, and the half-fletched arrows represent tidal current. The ship is painstakingly working through an estuary, with wind not much stronger than the tide.

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23 hours ago, admin said:

It will make ships with huge sail power to hull ratios  (like surprise, rattlesnake) bad in holding the course and bad in chasing, but great in brawling (amazing turning)
Alternatively ships with lower sail power to hull ratios (like uss constitution) great in holding the course = chasing and running (not so good turning). 

So yet another nerf to the constitution, which handled better than almost any other frigate of her time. When I was in the navy I had the pleasure of sailing her. Your in game representation is pathetic compared to the real article. I think you are trying hard but completely missing the mark.

the Connie was modeled using the same design principles of the Yankee clippers who had the extra topsails to compensate for not as much mainsail area. This made them the fastest and most Mobile ships on the seas in their time. This is where your sail area calculations are completely wrong. You may as well remove the us ships from game if you aren't going to do them justice. @admin

your fancy sail calculations also do not account for game balance. You need to have all ships of a particular class balanced against each other. Each 4th rate should have a reasonable ability to defeat any other 4th rate. Same for the other ship classes. With all of the nerfs to the Connie maneuverability and due to your flawed calculations, and her being so undergunned compared to the others, what are you planning to do to balance her vs the other 4th rates? Before you took away her maneuverability, she has that over the others. Now she's got nothing. Are you finally going to correctly classify her a 5th rate? Because after this next patch, she's going to be lucky to be able to compete against them. 

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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6 hours ago, Valentine Karrde said:

So yet another nerf to the constitution, which handled better than almost any other frigate of her time.

I don't recall a single compliment ever specifically paid to Constitution's handling. On the other hand, Bainbridge did try to bribe a fellow captain $5,000 to let him take President instead.

The ship was undoubtedly well-handled in combat, but that's something quite different from design. Handiness was certainly not one of the design priorities.

 

Quote

When I was in the navy I had the pleasure of sailing her. Your in game representation is pathetic compared to the real article. I think you are trying hard but completely missing the mark.

Well the digital version can set more than her topsails, so that's a little less pathetic. She's just been robbed in the speed department, for balance reasons (one wonders where that leaves Wasa...).

 

Quote

the Connie was modeled using the same design principles of the Yankee clippers who had the extra topsails to compensate for not as much mainsail area.

This is where your sail area calculations are completely wrong.

Not really, her rig was fairly proportionate. Not sure what you mean there.

Of course, the sail area calculations are misleading. Surprise had the good fortune to be modeled by the devs in a sail configuration fit for light winds. Trincomalee has a sailplan for a slightly stronger breeze. But of course both real ships could adopt both configurations at will, and swap between them in a few minutes. Which would have a huge impact on the game as currently coded.

Smaller vessels will almost always have the higher sail area: displacement ratio, however. (And that's not what determines leeway.)

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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

 

In OW you already get 4º declination on a dead reckoning btw.

What does that mean?

I have no idea about battle. I doubt it was that relevant, given I've never read about it having any noteworthy impact in any small or large scale battle.

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8 minutes ago, maturin said:

Not really, her rig was fairly proportionate. Not sure what you mean there.

 

The ship is still in active duty, please refrain from using past tense to describe the living.

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20 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

What does that mean?

I have no idea about battle. I doubt it was that relevant, given I've never read about it having any noteworthy impact in any small or large scale battle.

Say you trace a protractor beam from Coquibacoa to Les Cayes and you religiously follow it. The end position will be aproximately 4º off.

The longer the more aproximate the deviation.

Leeway in battle, that's what we getting now :)

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4 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

From what admin and ink have said, your Caribbean server character will get all the redeemables, no matter what nation it is. They have said you could even delete your Caribbean server character if you wanted to change the name, because the redeemables will be there until you use them. 

Okay cause I tried deleting my character on EU server but couldnt. So all redeemables will be linked not to that character but our steam profile is what I am getting. 

 

@admin @Ink to redeem the cannons on my ships for the merger would I have to unload my ships?

Edited by Davos Seasworth

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Quote

I have no idea about battle. I doubt it was that relevant, given I've never read about it having any noteworthy impact in any small or large scale battle.

Leewardly ships were constantly throwing off line formations.

And most collisions involve leeway, since you generally don't steer right at another ship, if you can help it.

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4 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Say you trace a protractor beam from Coquibacoa to Les Cayes and you religiously follow it. The end position will be aproximately 4º off.

The longer the more aproximate the deviation.

Leeway in battle, that's what we getting now :)

I have been wondering on multiple occasions why there was some discrepancy.

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4 hours ago, maturin said:

I don't recall a single compliment ever specifically paid to Constitution's handling. On the other hand, Bainbridge try to bribe a fellow captain $5,000 to let him take President instead.

The ship was undoubtedly well-handled in combat, but that's something quite different from design. Handiness was certainly not one of the design priorities.

 

Well the digital version can set more than her topsails, so that's a little less pathetic. She's just been robbed in the speed department, for balance reasons (one wonders where that leaves Wasa...).

 

Not really, her rig was fairly proportionate. Not sure what you mean there.

Of course, the sail area calculations are misleading. Surprise had the good fortune to be modeled by the devs in a sail configuration fit for light winds. Trincomalee has a sailplan for a slightly stronger breeze. But of course both real ships could adopt both configurations at will, and swap between them in a few minutes. Which would have a huge impact on the game as currently coded.

Smaller vessels will almost always have the higher sail area: displacement ratio, however. (And that's not what determines leeway.)

Read 6 Frigates by Ian Toll. And take the Connie tour in Massachusetts. Or do what I did as a cadet at the US Naval academy and become part of the crew and sail her yourself :)  Once you have sailed her especially, the in game digital version doesn't even come close. The only version that this game had that did come close was the early 14.1 version. 

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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11 hours ago, Havelock said:

 

I see it as a mechanic to give ships more unique sailing qualities. I mean, can you imagine having to slightly tap d for 20 minutes xD

I normally can only tap D for 3-4minutes before needing to hydrate *wink wink*

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19 hours ago, maturin said:

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Please stop.

Ive already expressed I'm no sailor, however considering that Redii has already given me the rant that in a game anythings possible I would tell you to stop trying to dictate to me rules on sailing however unrealistic they may be to you, like your an authority because? Further more if I didn't protest these changes we would end up with a game so difficult to play most people will give up and play a game easier to navigate and enjoy.
If the devs idea of ship balancing is to introduce capsizing well I guarantee you people will leave.

Edited by Aziz

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One last question. What about unredeemed redeemables on the global characters? Those will also carry over, too? As in, I will end up with 4x Aggie coupons, assuming I have used none for either character thus far?

Like, the extra Yacht I understand not carrying over, but the unused forged papers, non-premium ships, etc?

Edited by greybuscat
clarification

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Fun thought about Leeway for OW.


You start a trip with wind coming from 180°. 45 minutes later, wind will be coming from 180° again. The Leeway pushing you to port in the first 22 minutes of the journey will have been cancelled out completely by the Leeway pushing you to starboard in the second 22 minutes.

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15 hours ago, maturin said:

The wind is coming from the right-hand side of the picture, and the half-fletched arrows represent tidal current. The ship is painstakingly working through an estuary, with wind not much stronger than the tide.

Thanks for the explanation, I am well aware of the intricacies of maneuvering a ship through a restricted waterway being a trained Master Mariner, what I was trying to point out was that the picture is quite regularly thrown up on these forums ever since the Devs first posted it but in reality it bears no relevance to what we can do in NA. It does not show where the wind is coming from and it does not say that the arrows are the tidal current. In game there is nowhere we have to maneuver like this and we do not have use of an anchor to assist turning.

Although I have no experience on square rigged sail ships, I can assure you such maneuvers in such a restricted waters would only ever be done as a last resort and at great risk to the vessel. I see it as more of a theoretical exercise rather than something that was practiced regularly. So I do not understand why people post it as if it is some magic sailing ability that was regularly done.

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23 hours ago, admin said:

4 .Unstable situations might be added (having a ship with large yard power but using it irresponsibly can result in capsizing of the boat).

Oh god, I can see it now- some guy accidentally capsizes his ship and, in his rage, writes a nasty steam review about the game's "broken heeling mechanics" or something.  This sounds cool but seems like it could add a lot of fuel to the fire that is the game's steam rating. I beg of you- do not add this!

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On 15-12-2017 at 2:04 PM, admin said:

Captains.


Here is information on the forthcoming patch 14 Part 3

1. Merge

Merge will happen next week (somewhere between 18th and 22nd December).

Due to the fact that all your assets from global will be transferred to redeemables on the Caribbean, you can already start a character or use an old one on the Caribbean Server formerly known as PVP EU. All your assets will come to redeems once merge is done and you will have some head start to get used to a new place ( +pick a name, nation etc). 

2. Ship re-balance will continue

  • all light ships will get their final exact (Historical) sail composition and curve finalized
  • most frigates will have their super turning powers rebalanced
  • some ships will have their speed curves slightly improved (e.g. bellona)
  • open world speeds slightly improved

3. Leeway will be added

 

 

4. Unstable situations might be added (having a ship with large yard power but using it irresponsibly can result in capsizing of the boat).

5. Several new upgrades added

6. New combo books added

7. Rudder turn inertia and acceleration added, yard power inertia and acceleration added.

 

 

4

 

 

gratefull for this change! thank you and keep doing what your doing right now ,I think you may have found your way again.

Edited by Rickard

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On 15-12-2017 at 2:48 PM, Yngvarr said:

would be realistic though

but then we would still be missing realistic wind and sea currents

indeed , and leeway can be easily adjusted by calculating the amount of degrees leeway has just like in real live.

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2 hours ago, Archaos said:

Although I have no experience on square rigged sail ships, I can assure you such maneuvers in such a restricted waters would only ever be done as a last resort and at great risk to the vessel. I see it as more of a theoretical exercise rather than something that was practiced regularly. So I do not understand why people post it as if it is some magic sailing ability that was regularly done.

No, it was done regularly.

Look at London. Look at Philadelphia. Look at Sevilla. Where are these major port cities located? On rivers.

The picture represents a kind of shiphandling that is a lost art. Because of course, we have had steam-powered tugboats and other engines, for over 150 years.

An anchor was only used twice in that screenshot, on the bottom leg. Page 200 of Seamanship in the Age of Sail if you want to see the wind arrow and last third of the diagram, along with a written explanation.

I do agree with you that it has been taken out of context, with only limited relevance to the game's sailing model.

 

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15 minutes ago, maturin said:

No, it was done regularly.

Look at London. Look at Philadelphia. Look at Sevilla. Where are these major port cities located? On rivers.

The picture represents a kind of shiphandling that is a lost art. Because of course, we have had steam-powered tugboats and other engines, for over 150 years.

An anchor was only used twice in that screenshot, on the bottom leg. Page 200 of Seamanship in the Age of Sail if you want to see the wind arrow and last third of the diagram, along with a written explanation.

I do agree with you that it has been taken out of context, with only limited relevance to the game's sailing model.

 

Great example would be River Avon into Bristol

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1 hour ago, maturin said:

No, it was done regularly.

Look at London. Look at Philadelphia. Look at Sevilla. Where are these major port cities located? On rivers.

The picture represents a kind of shiphandling that is a lost art. Because of course, we have had steam-powered tugboats and other engines, for over 150 years.

An anchor was only used twice in that screenshot, on the bottom leg. Page 200 of Seamanship in the Age of Sail if you want to see the wind arrow and last third of the diagram, along with a written explanation.

I do agree with you that it has been taken out of context, with only limited relevance to the game's sailing model.

 

Those are all big rivers though... I don't think it would have required those kinds of maneuvers. 

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3 hours ago, Custard said:

Great example would be River Avon into Bristol

Zero relevance.... I either picked the wrong post or you edited yours lol. But yeah all of this has zero relevance in game. All they are doing is making it more frustrating to newer players and assuring a permanent small player base. Maybe that's what they want... dunno.

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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