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Mr. Doran

Alternative to Cannon Grind

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Instead of just dooming players to almost certain failure for the required amount of games to obtain decent cannon to stand a chance against anything other than the most incompetent of opponents why not just allow us access to all gun poundage from the get go and increase the grind proportionally in the amount of total xp required to advance to the next ship. The cannon grind does not scale well; it makes little sense why when you get the next ship in the line you should have comically smaller cannons than what previously came. Advancing and then not being able to do anything in terms of damage does not make for enthralling game play. It is especially a hellish situation when a stock poundage team gets matched against a team made up of almost exclusively fully upgraded ships. 

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Because then what would be the reason for anyone to pick the smaller guns?

 

That is the reason cannon grind is in place. Better question, IMHO, is why do we need smaller cannons in the first place?

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1 hour ago, Galileus said:

why do we need smaller cannons in the first place?

For smaller ships?

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9 minutes ago, jodgi said:

For smaller ships?

 

Not in general, but in loadout. As in, if a ship can wield 256-pound longs or 2-pound longs, why would it equip the 2-pounders?

 

Difference between longs, mediums and carros at least gives you some real impact on how you need to play and how others need to play against you. Caliber of the guns? Sure, going down lowers the crew requirement and reload times, but it also lowers penetration - to a point where I feel like going for lower caliber once you have access to the higher one is straight up suicidal. If I want more reload at the means of pen, I will switch to mediums and tailor the upgrades for that, I won't start shooting volleyballs. And as long as this is the case, the only reason for lower calibers to exist is to force you to grind, where the grind exists only to force you to use lower calibers.

 

The whole thing feels like a mess of useless, to be honest. Feel free to correct me.

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10 minutes ago, Galileus said:

The whole thing feels like a mess of useless, to be honest. Feel free to correct me.

For us players it's completely useless.

I judge the "stock gun grind" by how I've seen it done in other games (WoWS, WoT, and to a certain extent: WT, but I haven't really ground anything there).

Stock grind hell is there to incentivize players to use a little cash to avoid some to all of it. I've seen the numbers from (3 years ago) WoT where most of the income was due to premium time. That only accelerates the grind a tad. In wot you can earn XP on any elite or premium ship and use additional cash, in the form of bought or won in-game gold, to convert said XP to free XP, just like our red books. Free XP and red books can be used on any cannon or ship/tank grind you like. So it seems parts of the skipping stock hell is already in place in NAL.

The only things we know by being told is that we will have premium account, red books and premium ships. I only assume there will be a way of skipping stock guns by playing "elited" or premium ships and converting XP to red books for gold(cash or event prices). I don't know how this is planned in NAL. We'll be able to buy premium account as a one-off thing, so they aren't planning to have premium time as a continual source of income. Premium ships are also a rather finite source of income, though it could pay off really well. Converting normal books to red books could be a longer term source of income as long as players still haven't ground out every ship.

Stock grind is so utterly horrible, both here and in wot, but I'm not scared of it. I'm scared of not being able to skip it partly or fully. Wargaming's numbers from three years ago show that very few players deal with the stock grind as the major majority ( ;) ) use a little cash to skip one to all rungs in the stock grind. One important difference is that in wot, when you have fully pimped your tank, you still have 100-200 matches to grind to the next tank. We are ready for next ship when our current ship is pimped out with guns.

How I feel about stock guns depends entirely on how they plan to make ground out and premium ships, red books and cash work in NAL. I'm so used to paying to avoid pain in WoT I don't have any shame left ;)

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Still, must be better ways of grind. An equivalent of research, where current upgrades would need to be unlocked first, maybe in tiers? Some armor and hp stripped until research - again, tiered? Sails hp, sails speed, crew bunks, and BETWEEN that all cannons unlocks. At least it would be one of many things you need to grind out. It would be faster to unlock canons themselves (total grind split between more things) and even more importantly stock under-armoured ships would actually be voulnerable to these 4pds. A symmetry of both swords and shields going through upgrades toegether, a dynamic of mismatch between offence or defence heavy ship upgrades and fully upgraded ones being relative and proportional to stock ones.

 

And instead we start in new ships shooting volleyballs, and yet disparity between lower and higher tier ships can be insanely huge.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 10:28 AM, jodgi said:

For us players it's completely useless.

I judge the "stock gun grind" by how I've seen it done in other games (WoWS, WoT, and to a certain extent: WT, but I haven't really ground anything there).

snip

In WT it is ammo grind for the most part. Your stock TIger I has the 88mm cannon but only the stock AP&HE rounds. To get the APCR, etc. you must grind. But that grind is minimal compared to the grind for the next high tier tank (and you can buy your way out of the ammo grind).

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On 12/13/2017 at 6:40 AM, Galileus said:

 

Not in general, but in loadout. As in, if a ship can wield 256-pound longs or 2-pound longs, why would it equip the 2-pounders?

 

 

You do not; it is suicide to use 12 pound longs on your Constitution when you have 24 pound longs. The differentiation in choice is mediums, longs, carro at their highest poundages for that ship. The differentiation is not do I pick good guns, shittier guns, shittiest guns. 

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Yea was so happy i got to the Brig then....4lbers....WHY?! Why can i not use the 6lbers from my cutter? Did my crew suddenly forget how to use 6lbers guns? Did my captain not check the fine print when he bought the ship?

Edited by ironhammer500

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I think the gun grind is fine as long as it carries over to next ship. Why ground 6pd on a Cerb if I already grinded them on a Mercury. However should I want the 24pd Carronades, well I would need to grind those first, but only once :)

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Then to rub salt in the wound, your guns have no effect on the matchmaker.

So I get to go 1v1 someone's 32-pdr carronade Cerberus with my 6-pdr pop guns. Hurray.

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 The cannon grind feels fine up until you hit the upper 5th rates when new ships really dont feel like upgrades  such as having to go from 18lbers back down to 9lbers etc

Few mix and match ideas to fix:

  • rebalance the larger ships so their stock guns are more similar to historic guns used (12s+18s rather than 9s+6s) although there would be a lot less to unlock
  • massively increase the damage done to crew/guns/structure by stern rakes if unlocks are kept as they are.
  • unlock guns separately from the ship xp (unlocked guns could then be used on any ship within reason) - by the time you get to navy brig you can unlock 6lbers etc. Players could then choose which guns they want to unlock depending on how they play etc.  XP earned on smaller ships can then still be useful as well.

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On imho the given problem dares as follows:
1. When buying a ship is completed, as now, with the smallest caliber guns (only mid).
2. Further the player at once can change these guns on any he liked (from accessible for installation on the given ship), buying them for silver.
Sorry for Google translate

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i understand the need of grind as a means to income. in general i think progression should be personal and in skill, and any form of gear upgrade is artificial progress, but that's where the money is and i get it. but blatantly handicapping you with small calliber guns is quite gross, a bit too extreme :huh:

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With the 2x xp u get from being beta/alfa it only take 6/8 weeks to get every ship and have 5 slots on them.  I don't see the problem at all here.  Game been out to everyone since 3 weekend of Nov.  I know of at lest 5 that have a Santy now and 2 of them have almost all ships with 5 slots and that is not counting me. So really 6 and that just the ones I know about.

It not the grind people are bitching about it getting beat for 3 or 4 matches.  This makes no since to me why people think they should have even fights and not put the time in.  Its only 4 or 5 battles a slot.  Unless you really do not understand how to play to make XP.  IE Not fighting with group(ai or players) = Fail,  Shooting Sails = Fail,  Capping out at start of fight  = Fail.  IT got to be the simplest game to understand how to move up ships and upgrades on the Net. 

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6 hours ago, JobaSet said:

This makes no since to me why people think they should have even fights and not put the time in

 

N/C

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A few weeks back I would have agreed with the OP but now have changed my mind. Currently up to the Agamemnon. As a normal NA player, I thought I was good to above average PvP wise. NA-L has definitely improved my PvP skills.

The gun grind actually improved my play. I know moving up a ship my first load out will be poor to awful. Wasting money on officers too early and getting that first slot open is vital. I started logging all my fights. Money earned to maintenance, the KILL assist ratio Damage dealt and the broadside loadouts.

Starting with a weaker loadout made me focus more on delivery. My damage dealt. Proper deck targeting and distance. NOT over firing and wasting broadsides. Making shots count. This is all easy to say…

I never thought myself a sloppy un-disciplined fighter, but this Gun Grind helped tighten up my manual sails technique, not firing off the top deck mediums until properly in range and other stuff you all know. You need to focus earlier, but by the time you’ve opened up everything with the guns you wanted you’ll start dropping more enemy ships quicker and cleaner.

This is just a personal view point from my experience. If I could have had my desired loadouts from the start I definitely wouldn’t have improved as much as I have…

 

Norfolk   

 

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1 hour ago, Norfolk nChance said:

A few weeks back I would have agreed with the OP but now have changed my mind. Currently up to the Agamemnon. As a normal NA player, I thought I was good to above average PvP wise. NA-L has definitely improved my PvP skills.

The gun grind actually improved my play. I know moving up a ship my first load out will be poor to awful. Wasting money on officers too early and getting that first slot open is vital. I started logging all my fights. Money earned to maintenance, the KILL assist ratio Damage dealt and the broadside loadouts.

Starting with a weaker loadout made me focus more on delivery. My damage dealt. Proper deck targeting and distance. NOT over firing and wasting broadsides. Making shots count. This is all easy to say…

I never thought myself a sloppy un-disciplined fighter, but this Gun Grind helped tighten up my manual sails technique, not firing off the top deck mediums until properly in range and other stuff you all know. You need to focus earlier, but by the time you’ve opened up everything with the guns you wanted you’ll start dropping more enemy ships quicker and cleaner.

This is just a personal view point from my experience. If I could have had my desired loadouts from the start I definitely wouldn’t have improved as much as I have…

 

Norfolk   

 

Masochism is not a substitute for balance; Cons with 24s will still be able to demast Cons with 12s while Cons with 12s cannot touch Cons with 24s. I am sure touting the cannon grind in the name of improvement is going to get pretty old very quickly when the fully grinded players boot is continuously crushing the skulls of the newcomers. Hopefully many Cerbs with 32s will roll up on their stock six-pound counterparts regularly.

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3 hours ago, Mr. Doran said:

Masochism is not a substitute for balance

Saved for hello kittying posterity.

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@Mr. Doran

“Masochism is not a substitute for balance…” good quote, that I could also say about the wife’s cooking.

 

Of course, and I totally agree 24s Connie v 12s Connie is a going to be hard to near impossible task. That wasn’t my point nor was I trying to sell the Gun Grind. From my only personal experience I found myself actually improving my techniques. This was unexpected.

From my logs it took me 26 Battles to get through the Connie to the Aggie to use the same example (from a zero silver start). This you might find to be quick, average or slow. I lost 7 battles (sunk or taken not recorded as they’ve no game values), and 4 battles with NO kills to my credit. What I did find of interest is my Damage DEALT to KILL ratio.

The Damage dealt quickly rises and stays around 24k to 28k. My KILLs from the 15th BATTLE onward is at least 3. Top score was 4 KILLs 1 assist and delivered 35k damage. Why is this relevant? My loadout at BATTLE 15 was Lower deck 18 Longs, Upper 24 Carros still not maxed out at L24/C32.

BASICALLY, the killing became more effective (topped out) well before the top loadout was available and used.

Now, the newbie point you make is very true and is a real issue. The Newbie can easily get lost into thinking he’s no chance because of the small starter guns. This is simply NOT true but hard to believe. It needs one of you guys to write a good beginners PvP guide.

Edited by Norfolk nChance

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The correct style of training is the way from simple to complex ... with small-caliber cannons at the beginning of the game is done incorrectly.
Although you can cheat, in battle, cuddle up to the NPS on which you shoot, in the game a bug, if you swim to NPS closely, it stops to shoot at you ...
well, and the first slot can be opened using an additional experience.:)

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