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Thomas G. Marshall

'Global' Ship Market

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We all know how the Ship Market currently works. Someone builds whatever ship they can/want to however they want/think which would sell best, and someone else looks in the ports for a ship they like. OR people broadcast a desire on chat. 

In the Future, what about a Ship Market where the BUYER puts up a proposal for a ship they want of what build type they desire and a price range they are willing and able to pay. Once placed after some time the proposal is displayed in other ports nearby of the same nation and progressively spreads farther over time, after some more time it begins to spread to ports of other nations starting around the port of origins and spread slower than it did to same nation ports. 

Once a prospective builder is interested finds the proposal they mail the other person from a link provided by the contract and they start negotiation and set up a time to meet when both are online. 
When they have come to an agreement they initiate something similar to that trade window (though it would be ideal if somehow this window did not require both to be in the same port) but instead of trading its a contract window in which the agreed on parameters are 'locked in' 

In the contract window the buyer would first submit the contract then the provider either accept or modify and send it back for approval, this would go on until both were happy. 

The Contract would contain the ship, ships build, price, deadline, and location of exchange. 

If the provider does not provide the ship by the deadline they pay a % to the buyer

If the buyer does not buy the ship they pay a % to the provider

I know there are some rather big things to resolve with this, but this is just a basic proposal. 

 

alternately they could just do for ships what they have done with other goods. contract for a specific ship and build, someone brings the ship there and sells it to the contract and then the contract is claimed.  

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Setting up contract FOR a ship, yes. but i think that has already been suggested 

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Buy contracts wont fix economy in any way. People just wont sell ships or materials when they dont need money/can make money so much easier with missions.

When economy works you can just buy ships from the market. Sure if there are 50 different builds for each ship you might not always find the exact one, but then many builds wouldnt differ much. Ships and builds that are demanded would always be well supplied.

Permits are a problem limiting shipbuilders to supply demanded ships, changing this would achieve much more (after balancing of economy).

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6 hours ago, Fargo said:

Buy contracts wont fix economy in any way. People just wont sell ships or materials when they dont need money/can make money so much easier with missions.

When economy works you can just buy ships from the market. Sure if there are 50 different builds for each ship you might not always find the exact one, but then many builds wouldnt differ much. Ships and builds that are demanded would always be well supplied.

Permits are a problem limiting shipbuilders to supply demanded ships, changing this would achieve much more (after balancing of economy).

Those ships you see that the AI seeds the shops with are generally of sub-optimal builds. 

The top three builds for Combat ships: Teak, Live Oak, White Oak frames with White Oak planks... I've not seen such a build for sale. 

THAT is why people will build ships... but why aren't the markets full? because who wants to build a ship and attempt to sell it by putting it for sale and hoping someone wants it. 

If the people who want the ship could put up a contract it would be SO much better. 

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2 hours ago, Thomas G. Marshall said:

THAT is why people will build ships... but why aren't the markets full? because who wants to build a ship and attempt to sell it by putting it for sale and hoping someone wants it. 

If the people who want the ship could put up a contract it would be SO much better. 

And why should someone craft the ship you ordered?! As a shipbuilder im also placing buy contracts, but for materials. These dont fill already while its way easier to craft materials and also non crafters can craft those. People dont need gold or have better ways to earn this, the market is dead.

And why should lots of people suddenly buy ships via contract when these ships are not selling on the market now?!

If a noncrafter needs a ship he asks a clan or a shipbuilder he knows. With labour contracts the shipbuilder not even needs the labour. Ships for marks reduce demand in addition.

What if the ship requires marks/permits?! You still have to communicate with the buyer unless the price allows you to buy marks if availiable, while contracts are supposed to undertake exactly this. 

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1 hour ago, Fargo said:

And why should someone craft the ship you ordered?! As a shipbuilder im also placing buy contracts, but for materials. These dont fill already while its way easier to craft materials and also non crafters can craft those. People dont need gold or have better ways to earn this, the market is dead.

And why should lots of people suddenly buy ships via contract when these ships are not selling on the market now?!

If a noncrafter needs a ship he asks a clan or a shipbuilder he knows. With labour contracts the shipbuilder not even needs the labour. Ships for marks reduce demand in addition.

What if the ship requires marks/permits?! You still have to communicate with the buyer unless the price allows you to buy marks if availiable, while contracts are supposed to undertake exactly this. 

your logic seems very flawed...

why should the people who are paying for the ships be allowed to place contracts for the exact ships they want when the ships being sold aren't selling?? seems to be self explanatory...

the ships that aren't selling are not selling because no one wants them... its a very simple concept really... 

 

do you think the shipyards of our modern age and of the age of sail would just make a ship and then place it somewhere until someone bought it? no, someone would come to them and order the ship they wanted. as such what is so wrong about being able to place a contract for a ship in this game? and then expand upon it to take it to other ports?

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2 hours ago, Thomas G. Marshall said:

why should the people who are paying for the ships be allowed to place contracts for the exact ships they want when the ships being sold aren't selling?? seems to be self explanatory...

The question was not why they shouldnt be allowed to do it... Why should people suddenly demand ships just because they are allowed to place contracts. If ships would be demanded shipbuilders would be able to sell them on the market right now for reasonable profit.

2 hours ago, Thomas G. Marshall said:

the ships that aren't selling are not selling because no one wants them... its a very simple concept really...

So accidentally everyone trying to sell ships is selling the wrong ships?!

2 hours ago, Thomas G. Marshall said:

do you think the shipyards of our modern age and of the age of sail would just make a ship and then place it somewhere until someone bought it? no, someone would come to them and order the ship they wanted. as such what is so wrong about being able to place a contract for a ship in this game? and then expand upon it to take it to other ports?

Im not saying its anything wrong with it, its just not improving anything....

You cant really compare what it ment to build a ship back then compared with NA. Each day more combat is happening then in the whole age of sail. Ships are consumption goods in NA, lost and crafted every day... atleast thats how it should be. Ofcourse you have to order something when production takes more than 10 years. As a shipbuilder in NA you can craft multiple ships each day. With labour contracts currently even unlimited amounts.

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7 hours ago, Fargo said:

The question was not why they shouldnt be allowed to do it... Why should people suddenly demand ships just because they are allowed to place contracts. If ships would be demanded shipbuilders would be able to sell them on the market right now for reasonable profit.

So accidentally everyone trying to sell ships is selling the wrong ships?!

Im not saying its anything wrong with it, its just not improving anything....

You cant really compare what it ment to build a ship back then compared with NA. Each day more combat is happening then in the whole age of sail. Ships are consumption goods in NA, lost and crafted every day... atleast thats how it should be. Ofcourse you have to order something when production takes more than 10 years. As a shipbuilder in NA you can craft multiple ships each day. With labour contracts currently even unlimited amounts.

sure you can craft lots of tiny boats, and heck those are often rather easy to find the crafted ones of good builds...

but im talking about proper ships. the only 4th rates youll regularly find currently are the Agamemnon beyond that you have to go to specific ports and hope there is one there thats not well beyond your budget or over priced. 

so how exactly is a method in which the people that want the ship can EASILY reach out to the people who can and will build the ship they want as well as negotiate on a price and location of exchange? 

if people SHOULD BE losing ships everyday (which i dont full agree with but thats irrelevant) then the system in which they replace those ships should be easier, simpler, and more reliable than blundering to this port and that hoping to find something you can and want to get, or all but spamming the chat "WTB (SPECIFIC SHIP) PM" over and over until someone finally answers your call. 

 

my question is, why are you so against a system that would allow people to 'order' a ship they want instead of accept whats available? would that not in the end stimulate the ship building economy?

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On 8.12.2017 at 11:41 AM, Thomas G. Marshall said:

sure you can craft lots of tiny boats, and heck those are often rather easy to find the crafted ones of good builds...

but im talking about proper ships. the only 4th rates youll regularly find currently are the Agamemnon beyond that you have to go to specific ports and hope there is one there thats not well beyond your budget or over priced. 

so how exactly is a method in which the people that want the ship can EASILY reach out to the people who can and will build the ship they want as well as negotiate on a price and location of exchange? 

if people SHOULD BE losing ships everyday (which i dont full agree with but thats irrelevant) then the system in which they replace those ships should be easier, simpler, and more reliable than blundering to this port and that hoping to find something you can and want to get, or all but spamming the chat "WTB (SPECIFIC SHIP) PM" over and over until someone finally answers your call. 

 

my question is, why are you so against a system that would allow people to 'order' a ship they want instead of accept whats available? would that not in the end stimulate the ship building economy?

I think you dont get the point. A: It wont fix serious problems of economy. B: If economy is fixed you wont need it, the market would just be filled with all kind of ships, it would be easy to replace ships. 

Who defines overpriced?! Do you think people would sell ships cheap because you want them to do so?! Prices are based on demand and supply. See people buy upgrades for 3mio. gold. If ships would be demanded they would pay that for a ship aswell.

The problem with inflation is that NPC prices arent effected. Usually it would atleast be very expensive to gather resources, but it isnt. The result: In one mission i earn enough gold to buy resources needed for multiple first rates. Limited by labour, gold inflation directly translates into resource inflation and ship inflation. There is no demand, people dont need ships/more ships than their friends and clans are able to produce. 100 CM translate in 10 labour contracts -> labour is not really limiting anything. Shipbuilders arent needed anymore, a single shipbuilder could in theory supply a whole clan or nation. 

Just ask a random max rank player how many ships and how much gold he owns, how much resources his clan has stacked and how many marks(=labour). If labour would be a limiting factor, you would be able to sell labour on the market for high value. Just test it by selling labour. As a reference, without hyperinflation 100 gold/ LH was common, it should be much more now if labour is demanded.

Economy got always trampled on, but right now really everything in this game contradicts a working market. Im just disappointed that people are not rubbing in devs nose how obviously broken it is, or atleast support those who try. Dont get me wrong, i appreciate very much that youre one of the few dealing with eco problems. 

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I also think it would be a pretty good feature to be able to set and to see buy contracts for ships.  Not sure I agree with crossing nations on that, but at least having it propagate to other ports of the same nation would be a convenient way to broadcast.  No Fargo, it won't resolve all the economic deficiencies of this game that you point out, but the OP didn't suggest that, he was asking for a new feature which in part I could agree with.

Edited by Jean Ribault

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The point is that its not a good idea to ground new ideas on broken mechanics. Make the basics work, then think about how to improve further. Even if there is no downside, why use time and resources for something that has no upside, that in the best case is just not making anything worse. Your argument is that it should become easier to get the ship you want from the market, but based on a currently broken situation. Before we fix basic problems and the market starts working we cant evaluate how difficult it is.

 

Maybe think about why people fill buy contracts for materials or resources instead of putting a sell contract. A: Youre safely selling large amounts of goods for moderate profit. B: You need the money immediately even selling for low profit. C: very good price. D: You want to get rid of a small amount of goods. E: You dont have enough contracts. F: Good is oversupplied and looses value, youre happy about every piece you sell. Now why should i sell a ship to a contract that usually aims to buy as cheap as possible?! People would still just put their ships on the market instead of filling your contracts. You are forced to buy the slightly more expensive ship, what else can u do. Usually youre neither in a hurry selling a ship nor trying to get rid of it. When a ship is very well supplied already you craft another ship or build. Sure this is theorycrafting and i can be completely wrong, but this seems likely to me.

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On 12/9/2017 at 6:27 PM, Fargo said:

Now why should i sell a ship to a contract that usually aims to buy as cheap as possible?!

did you neglect to read the part where the potential provider NEGOTIATES with the person interested in obtaining the ship? or did you just forget what it means? 

perhaps in your opinion the ship should cost more, or even know based on fast the ship should cost more... bring that to their attention when you negotiate the deal! 

if they don't acknowledge and change the price, end negotiations and dont provide the ship... you know like what would actually happen. 

 

sure in real life it would take a great many months or even years to build a vessel while in game with LCs you could do it in hours, but it still takes a considerable amount of resources, which can take considerable time to obtain, with out LCs it can take several days to build the parts recoup the hours and then assemble the ship, there is also the time it takes to get the credits to buy the parts, or the combat marks to buy the labor contracts. all of those things lead me (and others who have said so in game) to desire a system where the builder doesnt half blindly build a ship estimate a price high enough to make it worth it and low enough for people to still want it. 

 

and i never said implement this !NOW! obviously it would be more a secondary project, just as customizing the paint on a ship would be tertiary.

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@Thomas G. Marshall 

Negotiating?! The purpose of contracts is that you dont have to communicate for each deal. If you want to negotiate you can go to trade channel. If anything makes sense its buy contracts like we have for other stuff already. What if 15 people want to negotiate with you all online at different times?! This deal would take a week probably if you want to make it fair... Shouldnt sell contracts work the same way then?! And this should make deals easier?! 

Stop assuming a broken economy. You totally dont understand how demand, supply and competition works. Have you even read my whole posts?!

Btw. figuring out what ships currently sell for best profit is what makes shipbuilding exiting. If you blindly craft ships youre doing something wrong. And you have to care about your profit/what you can sell your ship for so or so. You cant blindly fill contracts assuming that the buyer cares about youre profit... And the market would always tell you what your ship or similar ships currently sell for.

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