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Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Fair enough. :) Can anyone explain the physics of why Navy Brigs have such a derpy close hauled bump?  The changes to the Prince profile leave me quite sad (much more similar to a Lynx now than before):

83227533076f9622dad4a037db3f7216.png

Outside of port battles, most of the PVP (solo and duo) I have done recently has been in a Prince. If it ever had 90% sail force 2 ticks off 180 like "Prince_Old" shows in the graphic, I don't remember it at all.

I was logged out in open world and just sailed my Prince back to port, and it felt exactly the same as last night.

As for the Navybrig at 45 degrees, I have no idea! It's a long-running mystery for sure. I'm sure it will get addressed when they do the smaller ships.

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3 hours ago, Liq said:

Okay so I did a few tests on the surprise - The acceleration once the topsails are down is just insane. I am really liking the new possible manouvers you can do, e.g. going 6 kts reverse, then reverse-ruddering and get the odd broadside off (maybe)

 

Have to admit, there's a lot there that looks over-the-top.

Bearing in mind that Surprise will be the most unnatural square rigger in the game, because she makes 12 knots at 75 degrees, the point at which a real ship would be luffing. And 10 kts at 60 degrees. (Surprise once set that huge impractical middle staysail for a photo shoot, and as a result she's the closehauled king in NA, haha.) With that much upwind momentum to play with, it's impossible to get normal tacking behavior.

Maybe acceleration is excessive for frigates now too? One thing that has long been on my wish list is for acceleration to be almost zero, until a sail has actually finished setting. It looks really gamey to have a ship accelerating from canvas that isn't actually sheeted home yet.

All in all, I think the first round of changes was designed to turn Agamemnon into a hotrod. And that left no room for moderation in the light warship classes. What will the brig be like?

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2 hours ago, admin said:

I care about sailing profiles. I am making this game for myself first. I decide what to add first and last. 

You Sir, have balls of steel! Heads up!

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11 minutes ago, maturin said:

Agamemnon into a hotrod.

Aga tacks with her butt now. 

Surprise may be super comfortable now, but try to do the same in an LGV.

Sailing profile matters more now and as a tool to differentiate between fighting pixels in a game I think it's terrific!

Auto skippers will get stuck without hope of ever getting out without touching some keys. People with a clue will be able to swing their bow downwind faster than before after a tack.

Sailing and fighting will be even more challenging and fun than before.

These are the most fun changes in a long time, whatever the squirrels say.

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Good points @maturin.

16 minutes ago, maturin said:

Maybe acceleration is excessive for frigates now too? One thing that has long been on my wish list is for acceleration to be almost zero, until a sail has actually finished setting. It looks really gamey to have a ship accelerating from canvas that isn't actually sheeted home yet.

I really like the idea about delaying acceleration until the sails would have time to fill with wind.

As for acceleration, perhaps all acceleration is too great? I think turn acceleration could also use a look.

One of the reasons the Surprise has the acceleration she does in @Liq's video is she has (according to the provided spreadsheet) an acceleration time of 16 seconds. This very low accel-time is probably related to her weight, which is also very low at 660. Even leaving her impressive staysail arrangement, changes to acceleration on the Surprise (and all ships) could be done from the weight side of the equation.

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25 minutes ago, maturin said:

Have to admit, there's a lot there that looks over-the-top.

Bearing in mind that Surprise will be the most unnatural square rigger in the game, because she makes 12 knots at 75 degrees, the point at which a real ship would be luffing. And 10 kts at 60 degrees. (Surprise once set that huge impractical middle staysail for a photo shoot, and as a result she's the closehauled king in NA, haha.) With that much upwind momentum to play with, it's impossible to get normal tacking behavior.

Maybe acceleration is excessive for frigates now too? One thing that has long been on my wish list is for acceleration to be almost zero, until a sail has actually finished setting. It looks really gamey to have a ship accelerating from canvas that isn't actually sheeted home yet.

All in all, I think the first round of changes was designed to turn Agamemnon into a hotrod. And that left no room for moderation in the light warship classes. What will the brig be like?

The Admin pretty much covered it, the reason for the acceleration etc, is the time difference between NA and Real world, NA takes seconds/minutes to turn yards/set sails, whereas quoted from Admin "Realistic sail setting time is 45 mins. Realistic yard turning is 10 mins."  so with that the acceleration etc is pretty much a scaled up version of the real thing

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The Crew have to be in dynamic - when player rising or turn off the sails the crew increase on it when sails stabilized the crew have to be distributed between guns and others parts of the ship with some minimum crew on sails which depends on how many sails opened at that moment. The book and ship knowledge of batsman will be more useful and the gameplay of micromanagement of ship become more interesting with this model of the dynamic crew. Developers, please think about it. 

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I haven’t had a chance to test but things that make combat more active and skill based are great. We’ll always have a few ships that look best on paper but with these variations based on sails, we’ll start to see more and more experts who can make their ship of choice sing.

I look forward to further refinements and applying the changes to 2 masters as well.

BTW, @admin it’s great that you are able to build a game that preserves your vision. It is a beautiful game. But please remember a lot of the criticism on this forum, even when you disagree, springs from your player base’s desire for an even better game. Better game = more satisfied players = better reviews = more sales = more money to fund your vision. Regards.  

Edited by Farrago

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16 minutes ago, Callaghan92 said:

The Admin pretty much covered it, the reason for the acceleration etc, is the time difference between NA and Real world, NA takes seconds/minutes to turn yards/set sails, whereas quoted from Admin "Realistic sail setting time is 45 mins. Realistic yard turning is 10 mins."  so with that the acceleration etc is pretty much a scaled up version of the real thing

Then the result is this:

 

I don't see any super-fast cannon balls or debris flying, so everything else should look plausible as well.

Yards and sails can move fast IRL. Mainsail haul when tacking is supposed to be over in seconds.

 

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11 hours ago, admin said:

Yes.. once we finalize it.

so why not have the NAL team work on this and yall work on content for the open world?  .............................................  wrong question?

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11 hours ago, admin said:

If your structure is below 70% you will see a degradation of speed and will have be more careful when conserving structure. In other words you will not longer see light frigates zooming away at 14 knots having 2 bars of structure left.

So damn good.

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Aga tacks with her butt now. 

Surprise may be super comfortable now, but try to do the same in an LGV.

Sailing profile matters more now and as a tool to differentiate between fighting pixels in a game I think it's terrific!

Auto skippers will get stuck without hope of ever getting out without touching some keys. People with a clue will be able to swing their bow downwind faster than before after a tack.

Sailing and fighting will be even more challenging and fun than before.

These are the most fun changes in a long time, whatever the squirrels say.

TBH, the scenario is pretty much this:

1) who already knew how to manual sail will play just as before, even better.

2) Who did not learn how to manual sail (since there is no instruction or tutorial) will likely leave the game.

3) New players ... well ... they will have a even steeper learning curve (when part 3 of the patch will be deployed).

I like new sailing model, but nonetheless I fear not all the squirrels around are wrong.

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1 hour ago, ivn said:

The Crew have to be in dynamic - when player rising or turn off the sails the crew increase on it when sails stabilized the crew have to be distributed between guns and others parts of the ship with some minimum crew on sails which depends on how many sails opened at that moment. The book and ship knowledge of batsman will be more useful and the gameplay of micromanagement of ship become more interesting with this model of the dynamic crew. Developers, please think about it. 

We plan to introduce dynamic sail crew based on actual active sails on a ship at later stage (e.g. battle sails mode require less crew than full sails mode)

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18 minutes ago, victor said:

TBH, the scenario is pretty much this:

1) who already knew how to manual sail will play just as before, even better.

2) Who did not learn how to manual sail (since there is no instruction or tutorial) will likely leave the game.

3) New players ... well ... they will have a even steeper learning curve (when part 3 of the patch will be deployed).

I like new sailing model, but nonetheless I fear not all the squirrels around are wrong.

Have faith! All the people enjoying true flightsims live this. We would attract a similar crowd.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

The only difference is this: Realistic sail setting time is 45 mins. Realistic yard turning is 10 mins. 

It's more 20 minutes for setting sails and 2 minutes for yards... Tacking through the wind - including changing yard setting - took between 5-15 minutes. I get the point though.

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4 hours ago, admin said:

we will have paints
We will have to wipe ships to add them back (because paints will be added as ship knowledges (that can be used on that ship forever). And this will require ship wipe because it will change structure of the database making all old ships obsolete and unusuable

Please, please, PLEASE let us pay for the paint schemes with real world money (a la Elite Dangerous). It would let players support further development by adding a cosmetics revenue stream,  and would raise no issues of P2W criticism (since it would be cosmetics only).

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59 minutes ago, victor said:

TBH, the scenario is pretty much this:

1) who already knew how to manual sail will play just as before, even better.

2) Who did not learn how to manual sail (since there is no instruction or tutorial) will likely leave the game.

3) New players ... well ... they will have a even steeper learning curve (when part 3 of the patch will be deployed).

I like new sailing model, but nonetheless I fear not all the squirrels around are wrong.

So it's almost like you need to practise to get better, huh amazing


DMVZa-8WkAAwzR2.jpg 

Ok.. *Smartass-Mode Off*

Manual sailing is one of the first things you learn though when going into pvp. It really isn't that hard

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4 minutes ago, Liq said:

So it's almost like you need to practise to get better, huh amazing

 

  Reveal hidden contents


DMVZa-8WkAAwzR2.jpg 

 

Ok.. *Smartass-Mode Off*

Manual sailing is one of the first things you learn though when going into pvp. It really isn't that hard

It's not just about new players vs. veterans like @victor said. There are also players that are okay at manual sailing, and with this patch they will really be rewarded for refining their techniques.

Like you say we need to practice to get better, and now it's even more worth it to practice.

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Dear Devs,

Many thanks and great work on the changes to the sailing physics, i feel you are starting to hit the sweet spot there.

A question comes in mind, are the any changes planned on the depower mechanics or animation?

It always bugged me how fast half of the sails of a three mast age of sail ship are recovered, with inmidiate effect.

Thanks

Edited by sveno

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Yeah, Depower is such a powerful button that it makes sense from a gameplay perspective to make it slower and require planning.

Plus I really hate to see an AI schooner's jib wobbling up and down because the computer thinks they are heeling too much for a split second, then changes its mind. The AI has timing limitations for yard controls, so its Depower decisions should be slower as well.

 

Also, I've been playing around with Agamemnon, LGV and Surprise. The first two are quite nice. Tentatively I can say that Agamemnon's sailing problems from the last patch are solved. Heaving-to is a challenge, but doable. Stationary tacking and ahistorical tacking methods are still possible, but no longer very effective. Some ships can't avoid sternway, which is fine. I feel like doing things the right way doesn't put me at a disadvantage now.

Surprise is a jackrabbit on speed and cocaine with an outboard motor.

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8 minutes ago, maturin said:

Yeah, Depower is such a powerful button that it makes sense from a gameplay perspective to make it slower and require planning.

Plus I really hate to see an AI schooner's jib wobbling up and down because the computer thinks they are heeling too much for a split second, then changes its mind. The AI has timing limitations for yard controls, so its Depower decisions should be slower as well.

Maybe instead of recovering the sails, how about to just loosen the sheets and let the sails flapping, with proper sail drag effect.

Edited by sveno

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1 minute ago, sveno said:

Maybe instead of recovering the sails, how about to just loosen the sheets and let the sails flapping, with proper sail drag effect.

That's what I originally recommended. But it would require new animations. The staysails and jibs don't trim at all. Always close-hauled on port or starboard tack.

It would also be nice if the innermost jib didn't furl, for aesthetic reasons.

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I like the changes in new ways of riding my ships. I think that ship performance will now depend much more on player skill than in game ship stats and grinded modules.  I like increased speed in OW for the game entertainment purpose. I think that it also makes sense in game to have game balanced speed of sails operations in battle. 

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9 hours ago, Liq said:

So it's almost like you need to practise to get better, huh amazing

 

  Reveal hidden contents


DMVZa-8WkAAwzR2.jpg 

 

Ok.. *Smartass-Mode Off*

Manual sailing is one of the first things you learn though when going into pvp. It really isn't that hard

No man, stop thinking you are part of some kind of elite only because you can rotate two masts properly.

I can sail quite well.

I am thinking about a lot of other players that play this game more causal than you and I. You know, they also play game and we need a lot of players (the more the merrier) to keep this game alive.

So basically I'm just trying to keep my "smartass mode off" before posting, not after

Edited by victor

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