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Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

it will destabilize the ship but not if the ship on the autoskipper (autoskipper is always balanced - because the boatswain balances your vessel for you.

I don't understand: so the sailing physics using manual sails will be different from the sailing physics when using auto skipper, when the yards are in the same positions?

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@admin In regards to this patch and the previous one, some players believe it won't do much in players retention or attracting new players, while some condemn it as being not realistic (1st rates coming out of tack at over 5knots), how would you justify these patches? 
Secondly, there are complaints regarding the UI of the game, to tie this back to the patches, would the patches better retains current players than an improved GUI?

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6 minutes ago, DustyA said:

@admin In regards to this patch and the previous one, some players believe it won't do much in players retention or attracting new players, while some condemn it as being not realistic (1st rates coming out of tack at over 5knots), how would you justify these patches? 
 

Naval Action is the ARMA of age of sail. We have THE BEST sailing model ever done in a computer game and we will continue to improve it. We are sure that some landlubbers prefer first rates to sail as motorboats, but hey - they can sail them in other games (and even install ram on their ship)

first rates no longer come out of tack at speed (it was happening because they had old inertia which is now fixed)

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@admin good sir I must know, what changes will 6th rates undergo? (short summary)

Edited by Lz3

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ok, following a quick outing in my LGV I'm not thoroughly happy, I have to admit.

First thing is: turnrate seems to be too high, it feels like tacking and gybing a dinghy in real live. I can't imagine the way the smaller ships will start to flip around in game now. Feels a bit strange tbh.

With respect to upwind speed i suspect that you calculate with a force coefficient proportional to the projected area of the sail in direction of the wind. While this a simple and viable approach for simulating square sails it does not hold for staysails. There is no big decline in forward thrust if the true wind angle changes from 60° to 45°, at least it is not a drop of 20% in my experience. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

In open world sailing there seems to be a big threshold regarding the ships speed. Pointing 43° to windward delivers 6kn, pointing 45° equals 15kn and more. That feels a bit strange too.

Thx for reading, will go aout sailing again. And I'm happy that I skipped my rl sailing session for today. :)

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Just now, admin said:

Naval Action is the ARMA of age of sail. We have THE BEST sailing model ever done in a computer game and we will continue to improve it. We are sure that some landlubbers prefer first rates to sail as motorboats, but hey - they can sail them in other games (and even install ram on their ship)

@admin Where can we get some numbers so we can monitor all the changes? i.e. On patch 1 Sails on the surprise at 100% is 100 metersquare, it's weight is 600t. On patch 2, sails on the surprise is 110meter square, weight is 600t. From this the players can follow the changes more quickly. For this patch, specifically, I'd be much obliged to see the area of sails for ships that are affected by the changes, as the width and length can be found on wikipedia.

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15 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

I don't understand: so the sailing physics using manual sails will be different from the sailing physics when using auto skipper, when the yards are in the same positions?

I believe he means, without the foremast, the force of the mainmast will be balanced out by the force on the mizzenmast automatically.

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1 minute ago, Suppenkelle said:

 

In open world sailing there seems to be a big threshold regarding the ships speed. Pointing 43° to windward delivers 6kn, pointing 45° equals 15kn and more. That feels a bit strange too.

open world speeds have buffs at angles closer to winds to give some boost for travel times

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1 hour ago, admin said:


You can fail a tack if you do things wrong and do not use yards. If you try to tack at low speeds you will get completely stuck in irons if you don't use your yards. 

 

 

Great patch just make sure Auto sailing can figure this out for new guys. Otherwise you will be seeing more complaints from new guys. 

Thanks. 

Edited by George Washington

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6 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

With respect to upwind speed i suspect that you calculate with a force coefficient proportional to the projected area of the sail in direction of the wind. While this a simple and viable approach for simulating square sails it does not hold for staysails. There is no big decline in forward thrust if the true wind angle changes from 60° to 45°, at least it is not a drop of 20% in my experience. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Sails have a dead zone (where wind stops working completely). Maybe what you are describing is caused by narrower dead zones in game than in real life. Staysails have a dead zone of 10-15% in game depending on a ship.

Another thing that is not implemented in game that is causing this effect (there were a lot of discussions long time ago about it) is leeway. We consider your sailing master and boatswain smart so they correct the rudder for leeway automatically for you. 
 

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1 hour ago, Liq said:

So in theory if you lose your bowsprit in a trinc in a close hauled / into wind manouver and cannot repair.. it's gg? 

Looking forward to test

Everyone who is exited will get their jaws dropped soon. Understanding sailing is a must now and not all do. This will cause frustration in some and will cleanse this game even more. Let's see how it goes. 

Edited by George Washington

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

open world speeds have buffs at angles closer to winds to give some boost for travel times

before the patch I could sail the LGV at angles of up to 15° to the wind with speeds of 10-11kn (approx) going 30° delivered approx 12-13kn, 45° were about 15-19kn and at 60° I had above 20kn. There were "steps" in speed but they were several and not too big.

Now I have 5kn at angles ranging from 10° to 43°(approx) and then a big jump to 15 and more if I just slightly bear away for 45°.

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1 hour ago, Thonys said:

well , lets test it out.

bad sailing will get his lesson learned the hard way , what is a good thing.

learning  to sail is vital, to gank comes second ...very good , i love it already although i am a very bad sailor ....

question:

" If your structure is below 70% you will see a degradation of speed " does this count for one side,   or just 70 % whole structure included stern and bow (and sail as well)

I believe "structure" refers to the middle bar only, the others are armour :)

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Well, not Sailaway level of study sim. So with just practice it becomes fairly streamlined for any player, this is the bottom rock credible level on control. The Auto "instructor" doesn't give any edge and that is good.

Good changes.

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33 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

I don't understand: so the sailing physics using manual sails will be different from the sailing physics when using auto skipper, when the yards are in the same positions?

Well of course , auto is balanced means turning will be longer. Manual will respond to you and your timing and this could indeed reduce turn rate time. New guys sailing on Auto will have big disadvantage in combat vs players until they learn to sail on Manual. This all translates to if you are new to the game do not even try to go pvp. 

Edited by George Washington

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43 minutes ago, admin said:

it will destabilize the ship but not if the ship on the autoskipper (autoskipper is always balanced - because the boatswain balances your vessel for you.

I think I understand now some weird behavior. Already with previous patch when you were on autoskipper and moved your yards just a bit, ship was changing behavior drastically. Is it possible to make autoskipper balance ship through rudder or yards, rather than some artificial course correction? This would remove some "magic" ship behavior. 

 

Another option would be to be able to trim sails either for stability, maneuvering or speed (not through mods, but in battle), like it's possible in reality. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Bomgordel said:

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This is a 15,5 Knot Lynx. Fix it pls. And no this is not because there is shallows its the same without them, i tested.

Faster in battle? 

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

Sails have a dead zone (where wind stops working completely). Maybe what you are describing is caused by narrower dead zones in game than in real life. Staysails have a dead zone of 10-15% in game depending on a ship.

Another thing that is not implemented in game that is causing this effect (there were a lot of discussions long time ago about it) is leeway. We consider your sailing master and boatswain smart so they correct the rudder for leeway automatically for you. 
 

Thx for your answer. I know about dead zones of sails, I'm racing sailboats for more than 3 decades now. :) I'd been stuck in irons more often than enough. I'm not talking about the dead zones of the sails. Even a badly designed staysail, like we find on our naval action vessels, is far from it's dead zone with angles of attack ranging from 45°-60°. It should work better for a while.

To underline what I wanted to say here are some of the numbersthat I took today in a LGV:

At an angle of 60° to the wind the ship made 8.1kn under full sails and 3.8kn depowered. So, the contribution of the staysails was 4.3kn. At 45° the speed under full sails was 3.7kn and 0.2kn depowered. Staysails contributed 3.5kn. This is a drop of the staysails's contribution by 20%, too much in my opinion. And this holds even more, as I neglect the fact, that resistance of the ship goes up with speed.

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2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Faster in battle? 

Didn't test but these ships are for transporting books only or traveling large distance afk. 20 knots whas the most I could reach in OW.

Edited by Lord Bomgordel

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9 minutes ago, Lord Bomgordel said:

 

This is a 15,5 Knot Lynx. Fix it pls. And no this is not because there is shallows its the same without them, i tested.

will check. 
the speeds should improve for OW not decrease

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