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Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

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2 minutes ago, Stepp636 said:

Even united they don't have the numbers to fight the top nation.

If a small nation caps a lot of ports they can't defend them due to their numbers.

You are too scared to realize your real strength. But you will if you try. There is no top nation. All top nations are just 10 captains with gained skill. You can gain that skill too

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Just now, admin said:

if asking questions is a word fight for you we don't know how conversation is possible. But we will try again.

If Russia attracted players why did not prussia? Is it national leaders responsibility? or a game responsibility? Why Rovers and LIONS left prussia? @z4ys @Sella22?
Why russia gained players ?
@Anolytic thoughts?

Rover left Prussia because we wanted to fight. The game went from a rover playstayle to an RvR playstyle so in order to PvP RvR is required. Prussia had established a status quo at panama. The nearby nations respected prussian interests so players of prussia could focus on pve. That thats not the sense of an impossible nation in my opinion.

Furthermore there was a lot of language bias within the nation chat. That made it "impossible" for english speaking people to paticipate in nation interest because chat (infos etc) were all writen in german. Even the Nation TS was sensless because german was used there as well. I told them in some meeting we need english speaking people in order to keep the nation growing. An other coffin nail in my opinion was that Prussia refused to help new players. All new players start at Shroud Cay. Prussia is sitting in panama. There advice for new players was to sail down to maracaibo lake. What new player want to spent his first hours ingame sailing down to maracaibo lake? Rover tried to make it attractive to new prussian players by holding Green Cay and La guanaja we even tried to help new players there but we couldnt offer access to all resources.  New players want to try stuff out and that wasnt possible.

So in the end my english speaking fellow captains felt unwelcome by the german chat bias and we dicided to go to a nation where everyone of us can read the chat and communicate with each other.

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

this can easily be fixed by only granting victory marks to those who has participated in at least one PB. 

Why are you testing the stupid limited victory mark system again? Every single time you make ships aka content harder to get people get mad and leave.

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Just now, GhastlyGhost said:

just give marks to clans that partcipe in PB

That sink/assist sinking of enemy ships in PB.

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25 minutes ago, admin said:

We have one of the largest private collections of the age of sail books and prints in the world. Perhaps you did not who sir john the clerk was - wiki was the fastest and simplest way to share it with you. Age of sail was not about broadside to broadside combat and sir john the clerk even proven it in his essays on naval tactics. You can replicate it in naval action too. You can try to have line combat but pure line combat allows easy escape and indecisive results (Battle of ushant, glorious first of june); decisive victories come from maneuver, disablement and general melee allowing to rely on individual skill and not station keeping.

Basing game mechanics on one person's essays is to say least, silly.

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Just now, admin said:

You are too scared to realize your real strength. But you will if you try. There is no top nation. All top nations are just 10 captains with skill. You can gain that skill

How do you think small nations should fight the top nation 25v100?

Take one port and lose 3? Can't win like this.

 

It just excludes most players/nations from content.

 

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Potbs, an age of sail game that got rvr about as right as you can, did this: the nation that won, got conquest points for writs for refit ships etc. the next three nations got them as well. The underdog nations got bonuses to money, experience, and resource requirement  reductions. All nations could make all ships but the ones who won couldn't refit certain non game breaking ships through the conquest marks. People re rolled to under dog nations all the time to get the bonuses. The winning nations got their pretty refits that didn't change the balance of power or give them a greater advantage. Everyone was happy and the balance of power was constantly shifting. 

Unlike game labs, flying labs software understood that people respond better to the carrot than the stick. Punishing weaker nations just causes people to re roll to the stronger ones and never achieves balance. 

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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4 minutes ago, Baron De Bourbon said:

Basing game mechanics on one person's essays is to say least, silly.

yeah it like basing physics on Newton's  The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy or most commonly known as Principa or 3 laws of physics

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

Prussia/Commonwealth can dominate other nations if it they do 2 things
1) unite the national clans 
2) practice and get better tactically and strategically
There will be no snowball effect as a lot of port battles has small BR limits and intercept fleets are easily avoided. 
There will be no decrease in PVP as players who don't pvp won't pvp anyway. Players who pvp will actually have more pvp as they cannot get advanced ships without conquest.

You answered to 1'st point - snowball effect. My answer is below:

It's not even about PB's, but about hostility generation. You can't efficiently generate a hostility with 2'nd rates against a nation that can field a full 1st rate fleet. We can't train unless we can field an even fleet to enemy's fleet.

A single 1st rate in a PB is a deadly force. I tell this from experience, as a battle commander. It's already hard to train an untrained group to defeat a better experienced enemy. Add to this their advantage in ships, and it's next to impossible.

 

I think three points are still unanswered. They were not raised by me, but other people. I just gathered them.

Main doubts for new system that I can read are:

  • no option for small nations whatsoever to get access to 1st rates and thus large part of the content (eg. epic events)
  • decreased PvP due to harder access to ships
  • no conversion of Combat Marks to Labour Contracts makes crafting ships and supporting clan economy harder
Edited by vazco

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31 minutes ago, admin said:

if asking questions is a word fight for you we don't know how conversation is possible. But we will try again.

If Russia attracted players why did not prussia? Is it national leaders responsibility? or a game responsibility? Why Rovers and LIONS left prussia? @z4ys @Sella22?
Why russia gained players ?
@Anolytic thoughts?

I don't think it was really the game's problem with the failure of Prussia. 

Prussia being Prussia was natural to attract a lot of German speaking players. It didn't seem to be the same case with the other nations though. Unfortunately a lot of the completely new players that joined ignored the "impossible difficulty" message and just joined for the flag. Some other players like LIONS which are mainly German speakers if i recall correctly, jumped from the Dutch just for the flag. In reality they had the same policy with the Dutch since they were the biggest clan in the nation which technically meant that they define the course of action of the Prussian nation as well. Unfortunately the majority of all of the players that joined either couldn't or refused to speak English even when we politely have asked them to at least try. That resulted in some english speaking clans to be alienated and they left relatively early. Also there seemed to be some unwilingness to PvP by the majority of the population and i have even heard rumours that a change of spawing place for the new players and an implemantation of a safezone was discussed and to be eventually brought in front of the devs. 

In the end i think that Prussia attracted people for the wrong reason.  Possibly the flag, or to be a haeven for German speakers combined with the unwillingess to PvP. Although i understand that German speakers are a large chunk of the community, i think that a possible solution to that problem would be to change the nation to something like Portugal,Venice,Greece etc. Or restricting the access to those nations only to proven PvP fighters.

The situation might be salvageable though, before we reach the point of changing the nation name.

On the other hand the other 2 new nations did everything great. Even though Russia attracted a lot of Russian players, a lot of them stayed at their previous nations as well. The Russian nation wasnt so stubborn to not speak English in nation chat or in general and they seeked cooperation with the non-Russian speaking members. They have also proven themselvers to be active PvP and RvR fighters so it was a recipe for success. The same can be told for the Polish nation. Especially during the first days of the merge they have attracted players because they speak English and they are willing to fight no matter what the odds.

Edited by Sella22

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8 minutes ago, admin said:

Prussia/Commonwealth can dominate other nations if it they do 2 things
1) unite the national clans 
2) practice and get better tactically and strategically
There will be no snowball effect as a lot of port battles has small BR limits and intercept fleets are easily avoided. 
There will be no decrease in PVP as players who don't pvp won't pvp anyway. Players who pvp will actually have more pvp as they cannot get advanced ships without conquest.

You offer no in game tools to support your statement. You cant unite clans unless you get place where clan leaders can talk. At the moment all initiative is on the people that are trying to achieve that.

You cant use tactics and strategy if your game does not give tools to draw and outline tactics and strategies.
If your ideas are key for success, then implement tools into game to support your statements.

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

yeah it like basing physics on Newton's  The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy or most commonly known as Principa or 3 laws of physics

This guy was no newton lol. You found one obscure writer whose ideas matched your own and based your game on it. It's your game but it's also what's driving players away from it. I know if something isn't done about demasting and soon, you aren't going to have anyone left.

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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2 minutes ago, admin said:

yeah it like basing physics on Newton's  The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy or most commonly known as Principa or 3 laws of physics

IF you were a mathematician, you would not follow one's theory blindly. Obviously you are not a mathematician. Besides, the Sir you are mentioning, is not a raw prototype for description of sailing. Instead of bickering, perhaps you can now provide me with an answer on how reduction to ship production will increase pvp action?

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9 minutes ago, Baron De Bourbon said:

You offer no in game tools to support your statement. You cant unite clans unless you get place where clan leaders can talk. At the moment all initiative is on the people that are trying to achieve that.

You cant use tactics and strategy if your game does not give tools to draw and outline tactics and strategies.
If your ideas are key for success, then implement tools into game to support your statements.

All nations are equal here. It's not the issue. Sure, you have to organize, just like everyone else. It's not a disadvantage, just a barrier for entry.

My main problem is that even when you can build a strategical advantage, you're at a disadvantage training new people. When you add to this restriction of not being able to bring an even force of 1'st rates to battle, it becomes a very paintful experience for new players. They will rather leave, than sink for 20 times to win the 21'st.

We were on a good road to become a meaningful force. This change will just make our people leave.

Devs on one hand try to make game simplier for new players by eg. introducing tutorials. On the other hand with a change like this they make it impossible for new clans to gain experience and become a force that matters.

At least let Victory to be craftable from CM's. This gets rid of a snowball effect almost entirely. It just leaves other issues.

Edited by vazco

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35 minutes ago, admin said:

Why did you omit Russia from the list. They started from the same empty clean sheet as prussia or commonwealth.

Please don't forget that Russia started with access to Victory marks. With those marks we built our PB fleets. Lost 40 ships in one evening and rebuilt them the next day. With the last patch the Russian nation would have collapsed inbetween the first two weeks since we would have run out of ships after our disaster against the Swedes. We recovered because we could replace our losses easily.

So please don't take Russia as an example that your newest idea will work. It's the best example for the opposite.

Russia performs well today since we organize battles for our players all the time. We organize their ships, we organize allieds and we organize targets. Russia performs because Russian players have a lot of fun in their nation with portbattles. And those portbattles are organized completely without pressure to generate enough Victory marks to have the ships in future as well.

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I honestly think we are pretty close to a complete shutdown of naval action. It had so much promise but the game is seriously flawed and the developers won't listen to reason. They are out to punish the player rather than make the game fun and playable by all. We've told them for months demasting is out of control, they refuse to fix it. We can get over the arcade style turning if they like that so much. We've told them boarding is broken, they cling to the same old Rock Paper Scissors mini game. They make the game for 2 or 3 people but forget its the masses that bring them income.

I've seen this in so many promising games. The game starts out great, then the development team stops making the game for its customers. There is a mass exodus and eventually the doors are closed shortly afterward. I had such high hopes for this game :(

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Dear admin,

i make it short: Please, revive the converting system combat marks to victory marks. Now you only benefit the strong nations and avoiding that captains show for port battles. That means more empty port battles and loosing playerbase.

Greetings Donjuan

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9 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

Please don't forget that Russia started with access to Victory marks. With those marks we built our PB fleets. Lost 40 ships in one evening and rebuilt them the next day. With the last patch the Russian nation would have collapsed inbetween the first two weeks since we would have run out of ships after our disaster against the Swedes. We recovered because we could replace our losses easily.

So please don't take Russia as an example that your newest idea will work. It's the best example for the opposite.

Russia performs well today since we organize battles for our players all the time. We organize their ships, we organize allieds and we organize targets. Russia performs because Russian players have a lot of fun in their nation with portbattles. And those portbattles are organized completely without pressure to generate enough Victory marks to have the ships in future as well.

That I totally agree with. while I don't think you guys are efficient enough to stand up to really good players (hence why you are focused on britain), everything you said here is completely on the money.

Edited by Valentine Karrde

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