Speed CAP

[Landsman]

9 hours ago, rediii said:

U are a true consti fanboy.

[Cmdr RideZ]

21 hours ago, Fargo said:

You cant balance speed as a combat stat and a gank/escape stat at the same time. Making fast ships crap (what they are already) reduces fast ships to pure gank ships. Youre trying to balance ganking with combat, but there is no point to do so because theres no point to have ganking.

Lets make an extreme scenario.

If we could sink a fast ship with one broadside -> Would be very hard to gank with these ships.  Or you and Jodgi don't agree here either?

You understand that having fast trader, pirates, pirate hunters will create one type of PvP in OW?  They will have the fast ships and will be fighting against each other.  This creates a possibility for other builds to be sailed in OW as well.

This game is not pure combat game.

This game has many unrealistic things, no reason to start cherry picking here.

Try to understand that if something is used a lot, that is not because of SKILL.  In every game that is because it is OP, it is not in balance.

Just don't please tell me that you and Jodgi and friends are sailing fast Fir ships.  Please tell me that you don't even sail speed meta ships in OW.

...

edit.  I have to say that I really don't see your point there.  Maybe you can clarify it?  As how I understand what you say now, it makes absolutely 0 sense.

If you have to use slower ship to gank combat ships, you cannot catch fast traders anymore.  So how much this will piss them off?  Would this create multiple OW capable builds?

Sure this is not the only thing broken.  There are probably multiple different ways to start fixing this.  But to say that this does not work at all, I really cannot see the point in that.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Fargo]

3 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If we could sink a fast ship with one broadside -> Would be very hard to gank with these ships.  Or you and Jodgi don't agree here either?

Ofcourse it works in terms of achieving its purpose (=to make actual fast ships useless). But removing fast ships wont nerv gank tactics. "Fast" is relative. Make fir completely useless and another wood becomes fast. Say teak would become the fastest wood replacing fir, people would gank in teak ships. The difference would be that teak ships are able to fight slower builds -> are not forced to run from even fights. This doesnt nerv gank tactics, but its atleast not promoting them unnecessarily.

Removing fast ships is what speedcap does already, or atleast did when all ships easily went 15kn. Did this fix ganking? To the contrary. Speed is the problem, not fast ships. Speed currently exponentially decreases the risk close to speed cap, or without cap using the fastest boats. To nerv gank tactics you have to nerv speed. Speedcap defining a magic number of safety does the opposite.

Why allow ships only built for ganking/to avoid combat. Whats your point. Why remove the option to use a fast combat build on the other hand?!

Because this game is not purely about combat? Well i mean we should evaluate what makes sense in terms of gameplay and realism, right?

Because this game has many unrealistic things? True, and im criticising all of those that refuse realism without any good reasoning. Dont try to justify nonesense with other nonesense.

3 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If you have to use slower ship to gank combat ships, you cannot catch fast traders anymore. 

Im talking about balancing of fast ships. This would make them stronger, not slower. And dont misunderstand "stronger", they would still be weak.. just balanced. Nerv speed and you can still use youre fir ship, it just becomes more efficient to use a slower/stronger ship the more often youre forced to fight/not able to escape easily. More focus on combat slows down the meta, then there is no need to max out speed anymore. Dont misunderstand "slower", OW ships would always be decently fast.

Traders are not supposed to be very fast, especially with cargo.

[Malachy]

I have a teak white oak Agamemnon that does 14.7 knots with repairs. I have teak white oak connies that are similar. Even if you further nerfed fir ships, people will still be fast. As long as speed controls the battle, speed will Ben paramount. There is no way to change this in an age of sail game.  People will just work to max out speed in another way. If you remove the hard cap and change the caps for various ships, all you will do is remove them from the roster of pvp capable ships. I for one remember when all you ever saw were surprises and endymions. I prefer to have variety, rather than cookie cutter ships. I don't want to go back to the surprise wars. We've already tried it that way and 90 percent of the ships in game were never used for pvp. Now, you see them all. 

[Cmdr RideZ]

3 hours ago, Fargo said:

...This doesnt nerv gank tactics, but its atleast not promoting them unnecessarily.

...To nerv gank tactics you have to nerv speed. Speedcap defining a magic number of safety does the opposite.

Why allow ships only built for ganking/to avoid combat. Whats your point. Why remove the option to use a fast combat build on the other hand?!

Because this game has many unrealistic things? True, and im criticising all of those that refuse realism without any good reasoning. Dont try to justify nonesense with other nonesense.

Im talking about balancing of fast ships. This would make them stronger, not slower. And dont misunderstand "stronger", they would still be weak.. just balanced. ...

Traders are not supposed to be very fast, especially with cargo.

At some point we had trader vs pirate vs pirate hunter.  Not so clearly, but we had it.  Yes, with realism we have now slow ships.  Not sure if that made game to be more rich, but probably more realistic.

If Fir is unusable for combat, it will be used as a scout.  Having a woodtype that is faster than average gank ship, why that is not good?

Fast combat ships are not for everyone.  Those need time to get, right?  Making HC PvE grinders to get a benefit.  As a PvP player, you got it, I am not great fan of this.  + The real reason, this is giving an advantage for veterans vs new players.  From PvP point of view "gear > skill" has no purpose.  Small % upgrades were better than todays huge % upgrades.

This is a bit off topic, but in case you like realism.  One of the most unrealistic features and still accepted and wanted by all "pro" gamers.  Side hull hits don't cause ~any crew damage.  It was removed for playability.  I am fine with that, but then they ask that stern rake damage should be realistic.  They want that mast damage is realistic.  If crew damage would have been scaled down from every hit location, we would have more realistic gameplay.  Try to explain this here and you have no luck.  People on this forum are cherry picking realistic features as they like.

In general gear is balanced if every piece has its purpose.  I would also like to see that OW would be balanced for multiple different builds.  Meaning, not only so that there is one build for PB and another for OW.  I have actually started to think that devs actually love gank based PvP themselves.

Multiple/Unlimited Repair Kits, this is interesting case because there are plenty of players who have been playing long and don't understand why this is bad.  I really would like to know who devs listen first to do their decisions.

While we speak here only from speed, I am not trying to say that is the way to fix speed meta.  Still, creating versatility to builds should be good.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

I have a teak white oak Agamemnon that does 14.7 knots with repairs. I have teak white oak connies that are similar. Even if you further nerfed fir ships, people will still be fast. As long as speed controls the battle, speed will Ben paramount. There is no way to change this in an age of sail game.  People will just work to max out speed in another way. If you remove the hard cap and change the caps for various ships, all you will do is remove them from the roster of pvp capable ships. I for one remember when all you ever saw were surprises and endymions. I prefer to have variety, rather than cookie cutter ships. I don't want to go back to the surprise wars. We've already tried it that way and 90 percent of the ships in game were never used for pvp. Now, you see them all. 

I have to agree here.

One question.  What makes speed so dominant in battles?

If speed dominant features are nerfed, other builds get better, right?

This should clearly indicate what is OP in combat system and what is not?

So what is the main "tactic" Fir ships use?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Malachy]

I think you need to play abit now. The game has changed a lot since you last logged in. Raking is almost impossible to do in equal ships with equal skill levels, unless the enemy has been severely reduced on sails and you haven't been. Side hits do kill crew, have for months. You notice it most on crew dense ships. 

You can't get rid of ganking. No game has been able to. People gravitate to that game style because it's safe. If one guy is fast, the guy that wants to catch him has to be fast, and the guy who is hunting him has to be fast. You can slow everything up to a crawl and the faster crawler is going to be the one controlling the battles. Basically, I think you just need to learn to deal with speed based combat, because that's the essence of ow pvp in this game. Slow ships are only good for port battles. If you can't catch it, you can't kill it. And the slower you are the more of a sitting duck you become. 

To illustrate my point, tonight I had a great duel with a good Dane pvper. We engaged in agamemnons, both had the same build, teak wo.  His was set up to fight a broadside duel and win it. Mine was completely speed rigged. I literally was able to fire at him and sit in his blind spots (bow and stern arc) until my guns reloaded, move into position, take his fire at an oblique angle so it bounced off, and then hit his broadside hard, move back to my position and do it again. No matter how low our sails got, I was able to do this over and over because I was faster by 2 knots. If I was as slow as him, I'd have been on even terms with him and he could have killed me possibly. This is why speed will always be king of ow pvp. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Malachy]

20 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

I have to agree here.

One question.  What makes speed so dominant in battles?

If speed dominant features are nerfed, other builds get better, right?

This should clearly indicate what is OP in combat system and what is not?

So what is the main "tactic" Fir ships use?

I replied above with an illustration of one of the tactics. I wasn't fir but that tactic works well in a fir ship. Usually speed ships focus on not taking damage while putting out massive amounts of it, usually into the sails and stern, then we board, or sink once the target has been neutralized. Rakijg is tough to do now unless the targets are low on sails (40 percent or so) or in a much less nimble ship. It can be done  it takes a lot more skill than it used to a week or so again. 

 It's really thrilling to go up against heavy ships with light ones and win. My favorite battles I've ever fought were in fir ships vs 1st rates. And other big heavily armed ships. Lately I use a fir bellona a lot. It does well over 14 knots and so far I've captured or sank 2 2nd rates and 1 1st. A few nights back I had a 4 on 1. I sank 3 Russian wasa and 1 escaped my fir teak bellona. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Cmdr RideZ]

39 minutes ago, Malachy said:

 focus on not taking damage while putting out massive amounts of it, usually into the sails and stern

It's really thrilling to go up against heavy ships with light ones and win.

Damaging sales and stern raking.  Mast/Stern raking, mast sniping.  Chain shots are too "easy" for pro gamers so those should be nerfed.  This is the core idea of being pro in Naval Action. + Having that fast ship.Question is why they don't nerf this?

They removed side hull crew damage (This is good).  What if they would scale stern rake damage the same way?

What if they made similar level of unrealism for sails and masts?

Thrilling part...  Is this what makes people to think this playstyle is not OP?  I am just saying that most seem to have the same playstyle right?  Most seem to win with this?

 

For pro gamers it has been also too difficult to change ammunition.  So chains and grapes should be useless.

It is also better to have 2nd dimension healing potions to make their mistakes to look mad healing potion skills

 

edit.

I said it maybe to complicatedly there.  Nerfing stern rake damage and having stronger masts and sails, would that improve it for other builds?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Damaging sales and stern raking.  Mast/Stern raking, mast sniping.  Chain shots are too "easy" for pro gamers so those should be nerfed.  This is the core idea of being pro in Naval Action. + Having that fast ship.Question is why they don't nerf this?

They removed side hull crew damage (This is good).  What if they would scale stern rake damage the same way?

What if they made similar level of unrealism for sails and masts?

Thrilling part...  Is this what makes people to think this playstyle is not OP?  I am just saying that most seem to have the same playstyle right?  Most seem to win with this?

 

For pro gamers it has been also too difficult to change ammunition.  So chains and grapes should be useless.

It is also better to have 2nd dimension healing potions to make their mistakes to look mad healing potion skills

 

edit.

I said it maybe to complicatedly there.  Nerfing stern rake damage and having stronger masts and sails, would that improve it for other builds?

The stern rake has been nerfed. Big time. If two players who know what they are doing are fighting, you won't get one easily. However, you don't need to get stern rakes to win. Refer to my post that was just before the one you quoted. That whole fight last night occurred without a single stern rake. If I was fir, I would have still won, as he didn't get many hits on me at all. In fact, it would have been easier for me to maintain my position outside his gun arcs due to better maneuverability. Fighting a fir ship vs anything else isn't something that's easy to pick up and do. It requires a considerable amount of skill to accomplish. If you screw the pooch, you sink in relatively short order most equal ships only need three or 4 good hits on you to sink you, you will need 10 or so to take them down. The key to fir ships is preventing the enemy from damaging you in the first place. Basically, fir is considered otp by some because they get beat by folks who spent a long time learning the skills to fight that way. Put those same people in a slower ship, they will still make it faster than your slow ship, and do the same thing to you but you will have even less chance of beating them than you do now, because they will be able to take the same abuse the slug ships can, but still control the wind and prevent you from damaging them just like they do in fir ships. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Cmdr RideZ]

6 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Fighting a fir ship vs anything else isn't something that's easy to pick up and do.

I have understood many are doing this at the moment.

If you ever decide to make a video, send me a link.

[Malachy]

19 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

I have understood many are doing this at the moment.

If you ever decide to make a video, send me a link.

I don't make videos, my computer is old and it takes too many resources. Many folks try to fight this way but aren't successful at it. To be succesful, you need to know the sailing profile and qualities of your ship, the opponents ship, you need to know how to position yourself to take little to no damage when fired upon, you need to know how to protect your sails. People get beat by the top players who do know all this and assume fir is op and needs to be nerfed because they were humiliated. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Cmdr RideZ]

8 minutes ago, Malachy said:

People get beat by the top players who do know all this and assume fir is op and needs to be nerfed because they were humiliated. 

Top players know the meta.  Instead of being good, it is simply OP.  If your #1 option to sail now is a Fir ship and you think you know the meta, then that ship is probably indeed OP.

NA playerbase is small, if we had more players, maybe in the future, there will be plenty who know how to play.  In game development, I would say that it may not be the correct way to think that the rest cannot do what I can.  Eventually many will learn and we will be all in Fir ships.

Now while the game is in development, we should try to balance it so that top players see multiple really good builds.  If you think you are a top player and your wood type is Fir, then we unfortunately should nerf that playstyle and/or that wood type.  All wood types, upgrades, books, ships should have a purpose and be balanced.  It wont ever be perfectly so, but that is where we should aim.

[Malachy]

18 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Top players know the meta.  Instead of being good, it is simply OP.  If your #1 option to sail now is a Fir ship and you think you know the meta, then that ship is probably indeed OP.

NA playerbase is small, if we had more players, maybe in the future, there will be plenty who know how to play.  In game development, I would say that it may not be the correct way to think that the rest cannot do what I can.  Eventually many will learn and we will be all in Fir ships.

Now while the game is in development, we should try to balance it so that top players see multiple really good builds.  If you think you are a top player and your wood type is Fir, then we unfortunately should nerf that playstyle and/or that wood type.  All wood types, upgrades, books, ships should have a purpose and be balanced.  It wont ever be perfectly so, but that is where we should aim.

If it's not fir, it will be something else. Like I said, we can get tanky ships to be almost as fast. How would you like to see all those fir ships replaced by tanky ones that do the same things? Speed will always be king, and in a game where keeping the wind advantage is paramount, that will never change.

[Cmdr RideZ]

21 minutes ago, Malachy said:

If it's not fir, it will be something else. Like I said, we can get tanky ships to be almost as fast. How would you like to see all those fir ships replaced by tanky ones that do the same things? Speed will always be king, and in a game where keeping the wind advantage is paramount, that will never change.

There are probably many ways but the simplest way would be to simply nerf and buff different wood types, upgrades, books, ships.  This has to follow the current combat mechanism.

 

Simple example:

Two wood types, other one has resistance vs leaks and another one has resistance vs fire.  Very hard to balance but in theory doable.  Combat mechanism has to make both tactics valid.

We have complex wood types and we have more than enough of those.  Will be hard to balance.

 

Another example:

Rock-Paper-Scissors like in so many other games.

 

3rd for example:

Role based mechanism.

 

4th example:

...

[Fargo]

9 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

At some point we had trader vs pirate vs pirate hunter.  Not so clearly, but we had it.  Yes, with realism we have now slow ships.  Not sure if that made game to be more rich, but probably more realistic.

If Fir is unusable for combat, it will be used as a scout.  Having a woodtype that is faster than average gank ship, why that is not good?

Fast combat ships are not for everyone.  Those need time to get, right?  Making HC PvE grinders to get a benefit.  As a PvP player, you got it, I am not great fan of this.  + The real reason, this is giving an advantage for veterans vs new players.  From PvP point of view "gear > skill" has no purpose.  Small % upgrades were better than todays huge % upgrades.

This is a bit off topic, but in case you like realism.  One of the most unrealistic features and still accepted and wanted by all "pro" gamers.  Side hull hits don't cause ~any crew damage.  It was removed for playability.  I am fine with that, but then they ask that stern rake damage should be realistic.  They want that mast damage is realistic.  If crew damage would have been scaled down from every hit location, we would have more realistic gameplay.  Try to explain this here and you have no luck.  People on this forum are cherry picking realistic features as they like.

In general gear is balanced if every piece has its purpose.  I would also like to see that OW would be balanced for multiple different builds.  Meaning, not only so that there is one build for PB and another for OW.  I have actually started to think that devs actually love gank based PvP themselves.

Multiple/Unlimited Repair Kits, this is interesting case because there are plenty of players who have been playing long and don't understand why this is bad.  I really would like to know who devs listen first to do their decisions.

While we speak here only from speed, I am not trying to say that is the way to fix speed meta.  Still, creating versatility to builds should be good.

Trader vs pirate vs pirate hunter... thats the basic concept how PvP is motivated. And it requires players beeing able to force each other into battle. What do you mean with slow ships? As i said, slow/fast is relative.

Try to balance it... Fir ships literally have to sink from one broadside to make them useless for ganking. Until then people would probably just pick weaker prey/use larger groups and run from even more fights. Even if you can make it work, its just a very bad way to handle it, not fixing the cause of the problem, just giving hunters a "magic tool" to control ganking.

Gear means basically upgrades, and i totally agree that these are messed up. I would make upgrades craftable consumption goods like ships or cannons every time. 

Sure selfish people are cherrypicking, but thats not making it legit for everyone. This is not kindergarden. To refuse realism you need good reasoning, period. This is not about "winning" an argument with rethoric or deciteful tactics... unless youre just trying to defend your personal playstyle. It doesnt matter if we like realism or not, NA "likes" realism. I agree btw. that crew damage was tested in a very bad way, while it would not make only sense in terms of realism but also for gameplay. (The reason why you cant balance raking with hull damage is because these are 2 different win conditions.)

Balancing is about decisionmaking. Thats why its bad to completely nerv fir. It reduces options people can make decisions about. Giving every piece of gear a very specific purpose doesnt require decisions, its boring. Ships with very specific purposes are restricted to very specific gameplay, boring. Proper balancing would allow you to build a ship good for scouting or boarding, but still capable of doing anything else. On the other side a boarding fitted ship would never make boarding auto win, and your scout would never be able to use speed for 100% immunity. Balancing is all about avoiding extremes, and the only way how you can achieve real versatility.

9 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If speed dominant features are nerfed, other builds get better, right?

Thats what im trying to explain the whole time.... Lets stick with trader vs pirate vs hunter. How fast do you have to be as the pirate?! So fast that you can compete with hunters. To either get away or to fight them off. These two options have to be balanced. When speed lets you always get away, pirate hunters dont play anymore. This is what happened. The combination of beeing allowed to get away every time + imbalanced fast ships demoting to fight the hunter is causing an annoying gank meta.

How fast do you have to be as the hunter? So fast that you can catch and sink the pirate. When the pirate slows down, you can slow down aswell. But when purely speed is defining if the hunter is able to sink the pirate, the pirate is never going to slow down.

I dont want to force the pirate in every fight, thats just another extreme leading to weird results. Already changing 0% risk to 10% does alot, because then youre not immune anymore. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Fargo

[Malachy]

Speed doesn't make you immune, but good players can use it to give the impression of immunity, because they know exactly when to time maneuvers and disengage and re engage. I am sure it's very frustrating for less experienced players, but we all took our knocks at one point to get to where we are now. The best I can suggest to Cmdr and the others who are frustrated is to find good pvpers who can teach them the ropes like I did.

[Fargo]

Thats not what im talking about...

Seriously what are you trying to prove here. If youre incapable of doing serious discussions just keep out of it. Im trying to figure out coherences based on logic. If my logic is mistaken feel free to point it out, im not genius. But dont tell me im wrong because you are right. If you raise extraordinary claims contradicting all logic you have provide extraordinary evidence.

Fir is imbalanced provable with simple math, reality provides evidence how fir is not useful for balanced combat. You said it yourself, the only viable tactic with fir is raking/boarding-> to avoid damage. That it is possible to compensate something with skill or boarding wont make it balanced. But i guess you still wont understand this...

Speed alone doesnt win you any battle. Speed is only so important because it exponentially reduces risk caused by several bad mechanics -> it makes you never loose a battle. Raking isnt effective against groups, or what do you think why PB ships arent fir? You cant just ignore a whole bunch of examples. Watch tournaments, Portbattles, or just other vids for more examples. What would you do when a reasonably strong wasa hello kittys up your fir bucket, sterncamp it?! Good luck. Speed is not even that important for sterncamping, you can easily do it with teak. Speed increases your turn radius, while raking is all about staying out of broadside reach. A smart opponent would even try to make you overshoot. Even 1v1 and in a smaller vessel it can be very hard to sterncamp someone who knows what hes doing, but thats not what were talking about.

Speedcap increases the importance of speed by defining a magic number of immunity. It messes up ship balancing by default. Removing the option to use a ship with speed advantage cannot lead to more variety. Youre claiming any ship is viable what is obviously wrong. Assuming you ment "more", this is based on the assumptions that ships are still speedcapped, and that people still care about loosing stuff/play efficiently. The cap became less important again with the latest patch, while ships arent worth anything anymore without rare upgrades.

Nobody wants to remove ganking as a form of hunting. Hunters always pick weak prey, thats just sensible and realistic. But they should not be allowed to exclusively do this without any risk. Thats when hunting turns into ganking. You can stick with the fastest possible ship, you just are going to sink more often. Thats all we have to achieve and its not that complicated. Let people gank if they want, just allow other players to punish those guys. What nobody needs are pure gank builds giving up all combat capability.

Is there maybe a reason that youre emphasizing how honorable and skilled you are suspiciously often, while emotionally fighting everyone trying to nerv gank tactics...?!

Edited December 8, 2017 by Fargo

[Quineloe]

On 12/5/2017 at 11:21 AM, Ctulhu74 said:

Speed should also be capped in OW when there is a storm and you are in a small ship or at least get damage if not severe damage.

A prince is not suited to sail in a storm

That is already in the game and has been for a very long time (the speed reduction)

 

BTW, are you saying large ships are suited to sail in storms?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory_(1737)

Edited December 8, 2017 by Quineloe

[maturin]

10 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

BTW, are you saying large ships are suited to sail in storms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory_(1737)

Do you know what you are talking about?

And would you say that automobiles are suited for driving on tarmac?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

 

Prince de Neufchatel has low freeboard, a lot of guns and a huge rig, all sitting on top of a rather skimpy displacement. You'd be much better off sailing the cutter through a storm. And of course, Prince was taken by a lumbering ship of the line because she couldn't sail fast in those conditions.

[Malachy]

4 hours ago, Fargo said:

Thats not what im talking about...

Seriously what are you trying to prove here. If youre incapable of doing serious discussions just keep out of it. Im trying to figure out coherences based on logic. If my logic is mistaken feel free to point it out, im not genius. But dont tell me im wrong because you are right. If you raise extraordinary claims contradicting all logic you have provide extraordinary evidence.

Fir is imbalanced provable with simple math, reality provides evidence how fir is not useful for balanced combat. You said it yourself, the only viable tactic with fir is raking/boarding-> to avoid damage. That it is possible to compensate something with skill or boarding wont make it balanced. But i guess you still wont understand this...

Speed alone doesnt win you any battle. Speed is only so important because it exponentially reduces risk caused by several bad mechanics -> it makes you never loose a battle. Raking isnt effective against groups, or what do you think why PB ships arent fir? You cant just ignore a whole bunch of examples. Watch tournaments, Portbattles, or just other vids for more examples. What would you do when a reasonably strong wasa hello kittys up your fir bucket, sterncamp it?! Good luck. Speed is not even that important for sterncamping, you can easily do it with teak. Speed increases your turn radius, while raking is all about staying out of broadside reach. A smart opponent would even try to make you overshoot. Even 1v1 and in a smaller vessel it can be very hard to sterncamp someone who knows what hes doing, but thats not what were talking about.

Speedcap increases the importance of speed by defining a magic number of immunity. It messes up ship balancing by default. Removing the option to use a ship with speed advantage cannot lead to more variety. Youre claiming any ship is viable what is obviously wrong. Assuming you ment "more", this is based on the assumptions that ships are still speedcapped, and that people still care about loosing stuff/play efficiently. The cap became less important again with the latest patch, while ships arent worth anything anymore without rare upgrades.

Nobody wants to remove ganking as a form of hunting. Hunters always pick weak prey, thats just sensible and realistic. But they should not be allowed to exclusively do this without any risk. Thats when hunting turns into ganking. You can stick with the fastest possible ship, you just are going to sink more often. Thats all we have to achieve and its not that complicated. Let people gank if they want, just allow other players to punish those guys. What nobody needs are pure gank builds giving up all combat capability.

Is there maybe a reason that youre emphasizing how honorable and skilled you are suspiciously often, while emotionally fighting everyone trying to nerv gank tactics...?!

I'm sorry friend, but you are completely wrong. You risk more in a fast ship because one single mistake will kill you. They are the hardest ships to master. Slow tanky ships are relatively easy to sail in comparison. There are a lot of people out there who have no clue how to fight a fast ship. You have absolutely zero concept of fast ship combat and all you keep doing is ranting. People who sail fast ships and don't know how to fight them die all the time or never get any kills. People like me though, you had better watch out for because we know how to use the wind to completely own anything that gets in our way, and we do it without getting hurt too badly. I am the type of pvper you are ranting against. The guy who swoops in and takes your slow ass tanky ship off you in about three seconds flat. The guy you can't do much against because im in and out of your gun arcs before you can aim them properly. The guy you shoot at and do zero damage to becUse I know how to angle my ship properly on approach.  

This topic is very relevant to me and others and when you come in here spouting off in ignorance, am going to correct your misconceptions so that others don't suffer from your misguided ideas. If you don't like it, then get educated and learn to fight. Your ideas of pvp and fast ships are born of the frustrations of a beginning pvper who still believes armor is greater than all and hasn't learned how to use the wind to win battles. Almost every fight I win, is won in about the first minute of the engagement, many are won on the tag. The rest of the time in battle is merely following through and maintaining my control of the battle. 

Seriously, you need to go back and do a lot more pvp before you are qualified to come here and ask for a nerf. 

And I did not say the only tactic with fir ships is raking and boarding, I will thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth in the future. You use your speed to control the battle and fire from areas that are not covered by the enemy armament. Sometimes this leads to boarding, most of the time I can sink people just fine by hovering near the stern or bow and firing into their broadside while not allowing them to fire at me due to weapons arcs. Something you learn after sailing every ship in game extensively. There are hundred and of ways to take someone out with a lighter ship. If you don't like being raked, then learn to prevent it. If you don't like to be boarded, learn to fight in boarding combat. It's not our fault you aren't a well rounded pvper. You coming here and callin for nerfs in ignorance, having never learned how to sail fast ships and win fights is like A blind man trying to tell someone what color their shirt is. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

4 minutes ago, Malachy said:

I'm sorry friend, but you are completely wrong. You risk more in a fast ship because one single mistake will kill you. They are the hardest ships to master. Slow tanky ships are relatively easy to sail in comparison. There are a lot of people out there who have no clue how to fight a fast ship. You have absolutely zero concept of fast ship combat and all you keep doing is ranting. People who sail fast ships and don't know how to fight them die all the time or never get any kills. People like me though, you had better watch out for because we know how to use the wind to completely own anything that gets in our way, and we do it without getting hurt too badly. I am the type of pvper you are ranting against. The guy who swoops in and takes your slow ass tanky ship off you in about three seconds flat. The guy you can't do much against because im in and out of your gun arcs before you can aim them properly. The guy you shoot at and do zero damage to becUse I know how to angle my ship properly on approach.  

I disagree with you here, you risk much less in a fast ship because you can disengage when things look bad, a tanky ship is at the mercy of a fast ship ultimately because the fast ship can still chain down and rake a slower ship without risking hull damage.

Like I said earlier, you may not always win in a fast ship, but you'll never lose IF you know when to disengage. Take the communist approach, make ship reach a 10% cap, that way no one can be higher in speed from more mods, everyone is equal on the speed foot which leaves best tank and maneuver builds and brawling skills to win out.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

 

4 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

I disagree with you here, you risk much less in a fast ship because you can disengage when things look bad, a tanky ship is at the mercy of a fast ship ultimately because the fast ship can still chain down and rake a slower ship without risking hull damage.

Like I said earlier, you may not always win in a fast ship, but you'll never lose IF you know when to disengage. Take the communist approach, make ship reach a 10% cap, that way no one can be higher in speed from more mods, everyone is equal on the speed foot which leaves best tank and maneuver builds and brawling skills to win out.

 

That doesn't make things equal unless all base speeds are equal. That will only have everyone back in surprises and endymions. We already did that once before, it didn't work so we went to the speed caps. What you guys want has already been tried and discarded once or twice before. We don't need or want surprise wars again. What we want to see is all ships viable and all ships being able to obtain similar speeds is the way to do that. Speed will always win. The fastest ship controls the engagement and always will. If you want to run the battle, ya need I learn how to fight in fast ships. You want a broadside duel, then be fast enough yourself to force another fast ship into one. You want to take on tanky ships, learn how to do it like the rest of us have. The only battles I run from usually involve odds of more than 4 on 1. I can usually handle two or three smaller ships and 1 or 2 equal or larger ships. This is not aimed at you slim, but the level of inexperience in this thread is staggering.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

2 minutes ago, Malachy said:

 

That doesn't make things equal unless all base speeds are equal. That will only have everyone back in surprises and endymions. We already did that once before, it didn't work so we went to the speed caps. 

Just half communism then, not every ship having same exact speed but like a connie will max out at 13.6, that's already pretty fast, and if every single connie only can possibly go 13.6 knts then speed meta for the connie is ded in a way. I know exactly how much speed I need to take on a connie and if I'm in my own connie its a fair speed battle, so no speed meta applies. Everyone is gonna max out their speed for PVP anyway.

If a Wasa can only go max 13.6 knts then smaller, faster ships immediately have the advantage because they WILL be faster as long as they're faster base speed which most are. I can bring a reno and feel safe in the fact that I'll always be faster than a Wasa, and that a fellow reno will catch me.

Having every ship able to fill EVERY role isn't good, capitalism for ship speed mods isn't good either, that's what causes speed meta.
Communism is the way to go to solving speed meta and ship balance. It can be done.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

the larger ships cannot fill every role. You are looking at one stat and not looking at the whole picture. Small ships are already more maneuverable than large ships and always have been. Yes, larger ships can reach similar speeds, but their acceleration is crap. By the time a large ship Is up to speed, a smaller ship is already out of gun range. It takes several minutes for an 1st rate to get up to speed, a 5th only takes a few seconds. 

People need to learn about other ships and not just make assumptions not based on one stat. I've never been outrun by a wasa.... because I know how she handles and can always out sail her, no matter what her modified speed is. You can outsail every ship no matter if they are speed capped or not. Smaller ships can do this easier because their acceleration is godly. You can also prevent people from getting away the same way. Most people are clueless about sailing profile s and acceleration/handling and instead of learning how to deal with it, they come to the forums and cry foul. Most problems in this game can be solved with a generous dose of experience. 

 

Now, that said, the wasa needs some tuning, it allows mediocre players to compete on a higher level than they should, and keeps them from actually learning to play the game. That's my only issue with any ship in game now honestly. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Malachy