Speed CAP

[Slim McSauce]

13 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Large ships are usually faster due to more sail area. We had a battle a couple days ago where we fought some really heavy ships with very light ones. Our renomee was one of the most important ships in the battle because he knew his role and didn't over step. Most frigate captains in this game want to be able to take a large ship with ease. They can't now, hence the whining. However, if they know their role, they are devastating in combat. We fought a Santi, ocean, buc and 2 6th rates with a fir victory, fir bellona, teak Agamemnon and fir renomee. Our renomee did not try to fight the first rates for long periods of time. He darted in and out while the larger ships were engaged and took down over 1400 crew. He also kept those 6th rates off us. In my opinion that tiny little 5th rate was the most important ship in our battle and allowed us to win that battle. 

I've played that role many times, I mained it for the first months of wipe actually back when the meta was speed connies and bellonas. Bow camping, keeping everything within our zone of control. Although fulfilling, it doesn't pay.

With how borked ship speeds are now, you can just use a wasa to the same effect, no need for small ships when wasa can do everything and more.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

I've played that role many times, bow camping, keeping everything within our zone of control. Although fulfilling, it doesn't pay. With how borked ship speeds are now, you can just use a wasa to the same effect, no need for small ships when wasa can do everything and more.

Wasa couldn't have done what tiger did in his renomee. Wasa isn't maneuverable enough.

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Wasa couldn't have done what tiger did in his renomee. Wasa isn't maneuverable enough.

Against first rates yeah he probably could, except in a wasa he couldve also brawled, or topsail demasting with the 32s instead of waiting out half the battle for stern rakes 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

17 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Against first rates yeah he probably could, except in a wasa he couldve also brawled, or topsail demasting with the 32s instead of waiting out half the battle for stern rakes 

He also kept their small ships off us. Wasa couldn't have done that. I lost 63 crew that whole fight. And that was in boarding action. If those snows and princes were camping out stern arcs that would have been a huge problem since we had a fraction of the firepower, thickness and hp. He also kept those firsts sails at less than 60 percent and allowed us to focus on our targets. A wasa would have lost that fight for us, of that I have no doubt. Wasa are usually liabilities . Everyone thinks they are so tough, but a light Bellona or Connie  outfights them every time. That's why you rarely see the best pvpers in them. We know their weaknesses and aren't willing to accept them. Wasa is an entry level pvp ship for the 4th rate class.it lets mediocre pvpers feel warm and fuzzy because they don't die right away like they would in a more challenging ship. 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

9 minutes ago, Malachy said:

He also kept their small ships off us. Wasa couldn't have done that. I lost 63 crew that whole fight. And that was in boarding action. If those snows and princes were camping out stern arcs that would have been a huge problem since we had a fraction of the firepower, thickness and hp. Wasa are usually liabilities . Everyone thinks they are so tough, but a light Bellona or Connie  outfights them every time. That's why you never see the best pvpers in them. We know their weaknesses and aren't willing to accept them. 

That's not a function exclusive to the reno, a wasa wouldve canoed a snow or prince in 1 broadside and it wouldnt even be hard for an average player. 

Wasa is not a liability wut. Its literally the best all around ship in the game. It has no weaknesses relative to its class. Its the most used ship since its introduction and the sole reason why someone wouldn't use one is because its so vastly OP compared to anything it faces 1v1 that its almost a crime for any self respecting PVPer to sail one outside of PB.

I dare anyone to try to refute this.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

9 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

That's not a function exclusive to the reno, a wasa wouldve canoed a snow or prince in 1 broadside and it wouldnt even be hard for an average player. 

Wasa not a liability wut. Its literally the best all around ship in the game. It has no weaknesses relative to its class. Its the most used ship since its introduction and the sole reason why someone wouldn't use one is because its so vastly OP compared to anything it faces 1v1 that its almost a crime for any self respecting PVPer to sail outside of PB.

I dare anyone to try to refute this.

Wasa is less maneuverable than a Connie or Agamemnon. Both of those ships will out damage one toe to toe. Connie has better masts, better armor and better hull shape. Connie is faster when fully kitted out with repairs and guns. Connie also has better chasers for mast sniping. Wasa only has two areas it excels: 32 lb bottom deck and crew. Both of which are moot when it gets stern raked to death lol. There, I've just explained why top pvpers don't like them. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Despite her extraordinary qualities, as you say Slim, isn't the ease of access ( mere 200 pve marks ) one of the reasons she is the best "bang for the buck" 4th rates ?

[Christendom]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Despite her extraordinary qualities, as you say Slim, isn't the ease of access ( mere 200 pve marks ) one of the reasons she is the best "bang for the buck" 4th rates ?

And capable of being fast and very well armed.

[Malachy]

19 minutes ago, Christendom said:

And capable of being fast and very well armed.

But by far not even close to the best 4th rate. She's entry level at best. A good throwaway ship because she's cheap and that's why she's popular 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Apart from the sloops, schooner and brigs, the Constitution is the ship. Definitely the model that fuses all learned through the centuries before. 

[Malachi]

11 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

[...], the Constitution is the ship. Definitely the model that fuses all learned through the centuries before. 

Must resist...must resist...the urge to r..r...rant........

 

 

Phew. That was close. Excuse me, I have to go back to my old shack in the Shipyard.

[Hethwill]

Totally on purpose !

[z4ys]

The best game experience and the most highly enjoyable time you can get is shortly after a wipe. When there are no meta speed ships around and everyone is sailing the same shit.

[Malachy]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

The best game experience and the most highly enjoyable time you can get is shortly after a wipe. When there are no meta speed ships around and everyone is sailing the same shit.

It took about 24 hours for me to have a max speed ship after the last wipe. I captured it from some pirate. 

[z4ys]

Just now, Malachy said:

It took about 24 hours for me to have a max speed ship after the last wipe. I captured it from some pirate. 

So you are standard of measuring? By the way that was not my message. Think about what it could be ;-)

[Malachy]

9 minutes ago, z4ys said:

So you are standard of measuring? By the way that was not my message. Think about what it could be ;-)

 I know what you were trying to say, but experienced players will have everything they like within a short time after a wipe. That was the point I was making. You might get a couple days of un optimized ships before the good players get set up again. Imho wipes just make it harder on newer folks because they have to compete with experienced folks for upgrades and books. I got most of what I wanted right after the wipe because I ripped off people who had no idea the value of what they had. Wipes don't level the playing field at all, they merely accentuate the differences between rookies and experienced players. I liked the wipe too.... got a lot of easy kills afterwards. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Hodo]

No ship should go faster than 15% of its designed speed.

 

And speed mods should be BUILT into the ship at design not added to it later.

[Malachy]

3 minutes ago, Hodo said:

No ship should go faster than 15% of its designed speed.

 

And speed mods should be BUILT into the ship at design not added to it later.

No ship should go faster than 14.5 tbh. And my fir ships are only about 18 percent over their base. and still are all running close to speed capped, even the heavier ones. 

[King of Crowns]

3 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I think I know who's Santi he's talking about. I guess ya'll still haven't caught Privateers Santi?  Which I do believe he captured off Powerdown if I remember right.

 

ask him. we have killed him 3 times in a santi in the last 2 weeks. idk if  it was his fir fir santi on any of those occasions. 

[King of Crowns]

I don't care about all the speed built ships. it doesn't matter because you can win a 2v5 if your ship is a medium build and they are all fir fir. The overall speed cap is the problem. The cap should vary for each rate of ship. the current speed cap breaks the smaller ships. example your limiting the endy to 15.5 which is also able to be achieved by a santi where as if the speed cap was not there that endy could get up to 18 knts or something like that. speed cap needs to be set by rate not by just all ships. you don't have to screw will all the mods. although I the speed mods need to be more handicapping on the ships. 

[Malachy]

14 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

I don't care about all the speed built ships. it doesn't matter because you can win a 2v5 if your ship is a medium build and they are all fir fir. The overall speed cap is the problem. The cap should vary for each rate of ship. the current speed cap breaks the smaller ships. example your limiting the endy to 15.5 which is also able to be achieved by a santi where as if the speed cap was not there that endy could get up to 18 knts or something like that. speed cap needs to be set by rate not by just all ships. you don't have to screw will all the mods. although I the speed mods need to be more handicapping on the ships. 

Not against skilled captains. Our clan won a 4 vs 5 in fir ships vs live oak and white oak ships. (Bellona, victory, Agamemnon and renomee vs Santi, ocean, buc and couple 6th rates) and If you control the engagement you usually can win against anything and the faster ships always control the engagement.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Malachi said:

Must resist...must resist...the urge to r..r...rant........

 

 

Phew. That was close. Excuse me, I have to go back to my old shack in the Shipyard.

Aww, I was only reading this thread in case someone would start to rant about the subject.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, admin said:

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)
 

Rather than focussing on everyone being able to sail a 15.5 kn connie could we please look at the roles each ship has ingame?

[Cmdr RideZ]

12 hours ago, admin said:

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)
 

Balancing ships like this is a bad idea hombre.  You have to make other kind of builds sailable in OW as well.  You have to remove speed meta as well as you can.

I am not saying you have to do exactly this but as an example.  If speed meta ships have -75% hull hp, not sure if everyone would be so damn interested from those.  You should be doing this balancing work all the time.  Not sure why you are not actually doing this all the time.

Have you ever thought that while you make fast ships weaker, it makes other builds more interesting options.

This will also decrease ganking.  As if you attack with 6xSpeedBoat and 3xStandardBuild can sink those with ease, it is not so easy to gank.

SpeedBoats should be left for traders, pirates and pirate hunters.  Pirates as Trader Hunters.

Gankers and the rest should never sail speed boats.  Instead they should have something more combat oriented.

Last group should be the port battle ships that are very strong.  These ships should be slow and gankable in OW if sailed alone.

[Slim McSauce]

Any advantage the Connie has is negated by the Wasa. More thickness? Wasa has 32s to counter that along with the same speed and more armor. Turn rate is marginally better with a Connie but not a decisive advantage alone.

Remember when the only 4th rate with 32s was the glass cannon Inger with its 65 base thickness and shit armor? Wasa is the glass cannon without the glass.