Speed CAP

[King of Crowns]

Hey devs how about this idea....... how about you make the speed cap based on the rate of the ships. instead of just an overall speed cap for all ships. for example. 1st rates have a speed cap of 12knts. and so on and so forth. a 15.5 santi is retarded. this is a simple easy fix. it would make smaller ships more important. 

[Slim McSauce]

Or just +/- 10% of whatever the base speed of the ship like every other stat in the game. (yes I know its 20%)

That way a 12.3 knt ship will only ever max out at 13.6knts, which is very fair. Only corvettes and smaller should reach 14-15knts. Done right there would be no need for a hard speed cap.

Also instead of everyone and their mothers doing fir/fir for that base 10% speed, you could do teak/teak or LO/fir (lol stay with me) and still get to that ships individual speed cap easily using mods without breaking the game and making everything a 15.5knt or bust ship.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[admin]

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)
 

[King of Crowns]

1 minute ago, admin said:

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)
 

right but as long as there is a 15.5 santi there is no reason for a renomee or any other type of support ship. I think the over all max cap is part of the problem here. 

[Hethwill]

Without variable wind to make rates best or worse the linear values are always that - a meta - no matter how they are changed.

Even if the maximum recorded speed of a ship would represent the absolute top in game speed ( with wood, mods and knowledge and perks ) how long until we all use it ? Would it really make a difference ? I doubt the majority does variation. Some do.

At squadron level the amount of ships variation is more visible though, when compared to single ships.

As I see it we have two types of "insurance" in the PvP world - number of ships on friendly side and speed. It is really the odd part of the "age of sail simulation" where truly exceptional captains would engage 2 or 3 times the amount of firepower ( will make a series of 'newspaper' on this ) and we keep on throwing higher numbers or use speed to avoid combat. There's no cost to put a ship to sea.

Thanks @admin for review of speed mods.

[King of Crowns]

also @admin with this new turn rate based on wind. how in world will you ever make fifth rates viable ships again. the days of stern camping are over with this new sailing update. then you add in on top of that that 1st rates can go the same speed as the frigs... its a major problem. 

 

[Slim McSauce]

29 minutes ago, admin said:

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)

You're cool for responding to player concerns. May I shill you my suggestion? My thought process is if you make it easy as apposed to hard to reach speed cap, then it won't a challenge to be shot for. Anyone could get their Connie to 13.6 knts from base 12.3 using any medium wood. Once that cap is achieved players will be free from the desire to max out every last % of speed and can put those slots to other things.

Care to clarify what you intend to do with speed mods/cap? My biggest concern is even with whatever changes you plan, people will still take wasas/bellonas which aren't inherently fast, and make them light enough stacked with mods to achieve a speed similar or faster than a light frigate while retaining the gun and armor advantage.

I respect you wanting players to be able to sail whatever ship they like, but I think small ships should always have the speed advantage over larger ones, less what's the point of using the small ship?

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Hethwill]

Shouldn't the speed %% be based on specific angle for that ship and not affect the entire curve ? 

[Malachi]

27 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

I respect you wanting players to be able to sail whatever ship they like, but I think small ships should always have the speed advantage over larger ones, less what's the point of using the small ship?

 

Variable wind conditions would be the reason to sail unrated ships or 6th rates. Then there would be no need to give smaller vessels the speed advantage they had a couple of patches ago. Bigger ships sailing faster than smaller ones is realistic, but it just doesn´t make sense from a gameplay point of view.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachi

[Hethwill]

The Prince was caught by a 74 ( amongst other ships ) exactly due to strong winds in which her lightness was more of a prejudice than an advantage, just for the sake of example.

[Jake Newport]

Speed should also be capped in OW when there is a storm and you are in a small ship or at least get damage if not severe damage.

A prince is not suited to sail in a storm

[Hethwill]

Nor is any ship  All of them will come out damaged.

On the other side of the spectrum, light winds. Where the big hulks will have to struggle a bit more and corvettes and brigs and lighter vessels feel at home.

Question is... can the OW battle instances have variable wind ? Meaning every single instance may have different wind speeds ? And if it is possible...Would we like that or we would only like that when it suits ourselves ?

 

[Slim McSauce]

I'd rather NA be a sim type RPG than a half arcade style one. Realism is fairness in itself, you can't blame the devs for lack of balance when the deciding factors for a battle are the laws of physics and ship design of 3 centuries ago. You get what you expect and work with what you have, and if you're fortunate the winds will be in your favor.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Hethwill]

7 minutes ago, Callaghan92 said:

Would be the same as most things, everyone would love it... until it does not play in their favour

Guess you can say that, for a part of us players. The other part would welcome the naval experience, as we do with all the changes.

[Sir Texas Sir]

I think I know who's Santi he's talking about. I guess ya'll still haven't caught Privateers Santi?  Which I do believe he captured off Powerdown if I remember right.

I watched the other night a L'Ocean which use to suck at any thing up wind run down a mortar brig going close haul.  Maybe did the sail data changed that much on SOL's or something?  L'Ocean use to blow balls at any thing up wind.

Though what I think there should be is a cap based off each ships base speed.  Say the ship is a 10.97 kn ship (Santi stats on wiki at a glance).  20% cap for any ship would mean the fastest you would ever get that Santi to is 13.16.   Play with the percentage not a base cap for all ships like the 15.5  Though that could be game cap that now ship can be faster than.   This way the Renommee with 13.69 would have the top speed of 16.42 if you max out the 20%, but that means it's over the cap so it won't go fast.   Connie/Wasa with there 12.30 would have a cap of 14.76...still fast, but it won't hit the game cap that way.  This will let the ships meant to be speed ships be actual speed ships.  The Renomme can use that 16.42 speed to make it's other sail profile speeds higher or it could go with a stronger build of a ship than a fir fir and still meet cap.  Though other ships might be made fir fir, but if the base speed is to low they will never hit the cap.

Fir Fir ships will take up 10% of that cap, This way they only have 10% they can use for mods.  Unless they go with a stronger wood type and stack mods to get the % but nothing can go above 20%.   This percentage can easly be raised or lower by the devs as they balance the ships, but since it's based off the ships base speed it means that some ships will never no matter what hit game cap.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Sir Texas Sir

[Slim McSauce]

@Sir Texas Sir thats why I suggested 10%, one so ships like the reno dont get too fast to the point it has to be capped, but also because it removes speed meta almost entirely

With 20% you still have to do fir/fir with a full focus on speed mods to reach cap, with 10% you can do fir/fir and be done, or heavier wood with a few mods. But you never have to do fir/fir with a full stack of mods to be competitive.

A good solution until we get some damn variable winds.

[Teutonic]

11 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

@Sir Texas Sir thats why I suggested 10%, one so ships like the reno dont get too fast to the point it has to be capped, but also because it removes speed meta almost entirely

With 20% you still have to do fir/fir with a full focus on speed mods to reach cap, with 10% you can do fir/fir and be done, or heavier wood with a few mods. But you never have to do fir/fir with a full stack of mods to be competitive.

A good solution until we get some damn variable winds.

I agree with you here.

Sinple fact as we currently stand is that there is no reason to use any ship except for the "best and biggest that can reach the speed cap." Any other ship is just a handicap. It should adsolutely be changed to a percentage cap as slim suggests.

[Fargo]

3 hours ago, admin said:

we plan to update the speed caps and some speed mods to reduce the desire to fit only for speed. We still believe that a speed cap is a good idea allowing you to sail the ship you want (not only the fastest one)
 

What if someone wants to sail a fast ship...?! Your logic is indefensible. Please seriously think about this instead of just holding on to your believes. 

It got pointed out already how imbalanced (especially fast) woods and ships are. It got pointed out already why speed is way too valuable currently. Fix the causes of the problem. Speedcap does the opposite.

 

3 hours ago, Malachi said:

Bigger ships sailing faster than smaller ones is realistic, but it just doesn´t make sense from a gameplay point of view.

It can work like that. Larger ships then need to be unprofitable and expensive to maintain, especially in PvE. From an eco point of view it would make much more sense than free first rates for everyone/OP PvE income. Getting in large ships that are powerful (even in OW PvP) and not common is very motivating. The better you are the more often you could afford special ships. Thats how quite some games handle it btw.

[William Death]

So, as much as I enjoy sailing my 14.6kn Victory (thats loaded with tons of repairs, if I lighten it up some, I can easily go over 15kn), something needs to be done about the silly speed-cap we have.

Easy fix:

• Remove speed cap completely. It is silly and as long as it is in place, people will be gunning for that cap. Pre-wipe, I had a Renomme doing over 17 knots, but I rarely sailed it because my 13.8 knot Live Oak Constitution or 14.2 knot Cedar Bellona was more than adequate for me to catch or out-run the average ship I'd find. Now if my ship doesn't do 15+ knots or have a super-awesome sailing profile, I might as well forget trying to hunt with that: should I manage to run down a target, I'll have half a dozen 15+ knot Wasas, Pavels, Santis, Renommes, Endymions, Trincomalees, etc. waiting for me outside the battle.
• Reduce the % amount that wood type affects speed (historically, it would have no effect). Going fir/fir should give just a small benefit to speed over the tougher builds, with significant drawbacks to HP and thickness. Don't make it so ridiculous that it becomes unusable, just make it bad enough that it is no longer the go-to "PvP build" (read that as "ganking build").
• Reduce the number of speed modules and the amounts they affect speed. Pre-wipe we had 2 craftable speed modules and 2 RNG sailing profile modules, with refits and wood types only affecting speed by a little bit. That worked so much better (besides the RNG part) than this crazy mod-dependant system we have now.

Then you'd have room for light, fast fifth and sixth rates like Endymion, Renomme, and Rattlesnake that will be, by nature of their high base speeds, the fastest ships afloat. You'll also have some quick first, second, and third rates, but they still won't be as fast as the fastest fifth rates and sixth rates. 

If you're going for historical realism while we don't have variable winds, then you wouldn't see much of a difference in speeds between all the ship rates, since the small ships are going to be at a disadvantage in heavy winds, and the large ships are at an advantage. People get the idea that second and third rates were built by navies because they were faster or more maneuverable than first rates. The reality of it is, in many cases, much simpler: they were generally cheaper to build, equip, crew, supply, maintain, and replace; being faster and more maneuverable (in some cases) was a useful side effect of that.

Basically, if you want historical realism, the best ship for most situations is almost always going to be a first rate, and that simply won't work well in a video game where we are seeking balance between the rates. So for balance reasons, we should have average speed (not super tanky modded builds) first and second rates be about as fast as the slower fourth and fifth rates, while the faster first, second, and third rates will be a match for the average-speed fourth and fifth rates. The fastest fourth and fifth rates should be able to outrun almost anything in the game, besides another super fast fourth or fifth rate. 

 

 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Fargo said:

It can work like that. Larger ships then need to be unprofitable and expensive to maintain, especially in PvE. From an eco point of view it would make much more sense than free first rates for everyone/OP PvE income. Getting in large ships that are powerful (even in OW PvP) and not common is very motivating. The better you are the more often you could afford special ships. Thats how quite some games handle it btw.

Agreed, with how easy it is to obtain a 1st rate and how much money you can make with one, there should be some kind of money sink to counter. 

[Malachy]

6 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

right but as long as there is a 15.5 santi there is no reason for a renomee or any other type of support ship. I think the over all max cap is part of the problem here. 

Wrong. A 15.5 knot Santi can't catch a 13 knot frigate or 4th. It's acceleration is pathetic. By the time it hits it's speed, the target is out of battle. The only thing they are useful for is subverting reinforcements in the green zone and being able to hang with a fast group to provide support firepower.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Malachy]

21 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Agreed, with how easy it is to obtain a 1st rate and how much money you can make with one, there should be some kind of money sink to counter. 

There is. It's called pvp and they go boom nicely:)

[Christendom]

17 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Wrong. A 15.5 knot Santi can't catch a 13 knot frigate or 4th. It's acceleration is pathetic. By the time it hits it's speed, the target is out of battle. The only thing they are useful for is subverting reinforcements in the green zone and being able to hang with a fast group to provide support firepower.

Wrong.  I watched an almost 15knt vic chase down a wasa and connie in the same battle this weekend.  It was astonishing seeing a vic blow past the rattlers that it had as support.  

Frankly the meta is broken.  I'm not exactly sure what was wrong with the previous speeds we had before the wipe.  The only 2 mods you had were copper plating and speed trim......somehow PVP felt more balanced.  You didn't have speed built lineships (that can repair every 10mins) outpacing surprises or light frigates.  I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm hello kittying tired of PVP constantly revolving around wasas. 

Gimme back the fast frigates and a little variety please!

Edited December 5, 2017 by Christendom

[Malachy]

6 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

You're cool for responding to player concerns. May I shill you my suggestion? My thought process is if you make it easy as apposed to hard to reach speed cap, then it won't a challenge to be shot for. Anyone could get their Connie to 13.6 knts from base 12.3 using any medium wood. Once that cap is achieved players will be free from the desire to max out every last % of speed and can put those slots to other things.

Care to clarify what you intend to do with speed mods/cap? My biggest concern is even with whatever changes you plan, people will still take wasas/bellonas which aren't inherently fast, and make them light enough stacked with mods to achieve a speed similar or faster than a light frigate while retaining the gun and armor advantage.

I respect you wanting players to be able to sail whatever ship they like, but I think small ships should always have the speed advantage over larger ones, less what's the point of using the small ship?

 

Large ships are usually faster due to more sail area. We had a battle a couple days ago where we fought some really heavy ships with very light ones. Our renomee was one of the most important ships in the battle because he knew his role and didn't over step. Most frigate captains in this game want to be able to take a large ship with ease. They can't now, hence the whining. However, if they know their role, they are devastating in combat. We fought a Santi, ocean, buc and 2 6th rates with a fir victory, fir bellona, teak Agamemnon and fir renomee. Our renomee did not try to fight the first rates for long periods of time. He darted in and out while the larger ships were engaged and took down over 1400 crew. He also kept those 6th rates off us. In my opinion that tiny little 5th rate was the most important ship in our battle and allowed us to win that battle. 

[Malachy]

2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Wrong.  I watched an almost 15knt vic chase down a wasa and connie in the same battle this weekend.  It was astonishing seeing a vic blow past the rattlers that it had as support.  

Frankly the meta is broken.  I'm not exactly sure what was wrong with the previous speeds we had before the wipe.  The only 2 mods you had were copper plating and speed trim......somehow PVP felt more balanced.  You didn't have speed built lineships (that can repair every 10mins) outpacing surprises or light frigates.  I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm hello kittying tired of PVP constantly revolving around wasas. 

Gimme back the fast frigates and a little variety please!

Then those wasa didn't know what they were doing. I've outsailed fast lineships dozens of times with moderate tanky 4ths. It's called using your sail profile and acceleration. If they try to flee downwind the lineship will catch them. They need to change directions frequently and sail at 90 degrees to 60 degrees. Lineships lose all the their headway really fast if you make them change to a slightly upwind tack. Any 4th can outrun a fast 1st. You may have more trouble outrunning a bellona but that's to be expected.