Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
Galileus

The problem with Kill XP

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Preechur Blackheart said:

Would it not be helpful if assists also granted xp? Maybe half as much as for the kill, or even 25%? That would incentivize better team tactics....

You DO get more XP for assists. Here is the difference explanation

  • Just damage.
    • You damage the ship for 100 hp and target does not sink. You only get xp for 100hp damage
  • Assist.            
    • You damage the ship for 100 hp and target sinks. You will get the % of full XP for the total HP of target based on your damage compared to other captains. The more efficient you and other captains are in killing the target the more xp you get for assisting.

As a result assists give more xp and sometimes a lot more than just for damage (if target dies from explosion for example)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

<snip>

Quote

If this match was balanced from the beginning, it's only fair that the Indefatigable wins.

I feel differently. In general games are more fun if there is more than one way to secure a win, imo. It may be fair, but I don't wish pull everything down to hull hp and sinking. Opinion.

Quote

should the Cherubim run for the circles and kite in order to get the win at this point

Yes. Unless I think I will sink him before he sinks me I will run for cap. That's a promise.

Quote

or should he accept his and his team's fate?

Never! Also a promise.

Quote

I already gave you an example (above post) how the three circle system with constant tick can grant victory to the de facto losing team.

In most cases only if you react too late or let yourself be led away to deny you the ability to react.

Quote

 

I played the map with the fort, we had two players each side, and their side managed to capture the fort, so we decided to go for their circle instead, and get out of fort range. One of their players saw this in time and rushed to stop our capture, which he succeeded in. Then we pommelled him a bit, until we saw that their other player went for our circle, so I broke off to prevent this... Since my ship was significantly more damaged than his though, upon arrival all I did was to tactically keep my distance while being in the circle just enough to prevent them from capping it. This I did quite successfully while my teammate finished off the other player, capped their circle and gave us the win rather quickly.

A circle win for us, and really nothing to be proud of.

 

Heh, I could have written the same as a shining example of how forts and circles give players choices other than the ever present hull bashing. From what you describe you guys played perfectly. They wanted you to fight at a disadvantage near the fort, you had other ideas, they didn't react sufficiently sending only one ship. You managed to stall their late cap. Perfect!

Maybe the xp was shit but this is something to be proud of. The win is what matters.

It's ok to feel shame if you go for cap as your first initiative ignoring the rest of the chess board.

I join in with the verbal abuse of speedcappers in WoT. But if I think my only chance of winning is fastcap (late in the game) I proudly cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far my best match was a fort map, where both teams (as usual) went for the fort. Their team (~5 carro mercs vs our ~5 mixed snows) slipped and lost the fort, so obviously I check for runners. Got one, went to intercept, blocked the cap. Few broadsides later the rest of their team joined up and our followed. By the time I was using chain steadily to keep my opponent from dictating the engagement, but his reinforcements caught me bad. Continued to wreck sails as long as I could, since it didn't seem like we had an upper hand. After a while slipped by unnoticed when mercs and snows entangled, ran for a cap with no more than a broadside worth of armor on both boards, and won us a game, since no one noticed before it was too late.

 

And to think that could just end up being a melee inside a fort circle... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jodgi: I understand that it's nice to have other ways to win besides hull-bashing; the problem with your argument, however, is that you just said that the circles are there to prevent kiting and running - and now you say that you yourself would kite or run, using the circles, to win.

Sure, I can agree that it's actually sometimes acceptable to kite (and know when to run for a while), it's part of the ability to be aware of your situation and judge what is the right approach to tackle the problem (as seen in my example with the two-circle fort map). And, if we don't entirely object to the use of that kind of tactic (i.e. we only want to see direct brawls), then my example is perfectly fine. The major issue comes when you use the circles as your main way of winning a fight, as has been pointed out by both you and @Norfolk nChance. Honestly, my biggest issue is how the point ticking works in the three-circle maps, where not only the team with two circles gets points, but also the team with one of them, meaning that, at some point during the battle, it's already decided who won, unless you manage to take all the three circles from the leading team, or you mange to sink the enemy before the tick reaches 1k, provided that one or more of them don't run (as exemplified by my match against Norfolk).

To sum up, I suppose the issue is not so much with tactical kiting within circle reach, but with running away entirely when your team is ahead and ticking towards victory. This could be easily solved by: only having one tick to fight about; that is, the tick you get from having most circles (so, regardless whether you have one or two circles, as long as you have more than the opponent, you'll get one tick - while the team that has fewer gets nothing - and if the teams have an equal amount, neither team gets a tick; also meaning that it'll take longer to reach 1k than now, where it's sometimes way too quick).

 

Just to complete my examples with the last major map type, here's one with the one-circle map:

It was a match with about three Brigs/Mercuries and four Cutters a side, and the enemy went for the circle with a Brig, a Mercury, and a Cutter; meanwhile, I was the only one going there (in a Mercury) to prevent them from capturing, and for quite a long time, I managed to stay at range (with my mediums) and largely undamaged until pretty much all the rest of the enemy team (that didn't go to the circle) had been sunk. In this case, they sent way too many ships to the circle, leaving the rest outnumbered, and they both failed to take the circle and do any real harm to me, while their teammates were slowly defeated.

This example shows that the circle attracts tunnel vision from some players, which can be used to your advantage. The team that was able to bring most guns to bear for the longest time won. It was a good, tactical victory.

I've yet to see a match where I felt it was unfair that a team won on the one-circle map (except once when none of us realised they'd captured it before it was too late, but that was one of the first times in NAL, and mostly our own fault anyway).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the circle are a good method to bring tactic to the game. example : fought a batlle this morning. 2 players on the other side (cerb + navy brig), my side full with ai (me in reno). was the fort map . i got the fort . basically their tactic was good aftert hat , they went for my circle and won the battle . was mistake on my side and they bested me . plus the ai sucks in every way when u're alone again 2 or more players since the ai doesnt defend the circle.

first i raged but after i had my 1 minute , i thought damn , they just played smart that time and i didnt.

Edited by BoomBox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is you can do a lot of damage to a lot of ships but not be strong enough to sink any single ship if your with higher ranked palyers then you end up playing battle after battle with no xp rewards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a nice example of the problem we discussed.

5a3926aba8460_EndscreenVictory.jpg.2c4a950f8393deb7ff1d02c868e230a4.jpg

5a3926e80230e_EndscreenDefeat.jpg.5181313dd467013bca19d4b4ea382fa5.jpg

I was on a Trincomalee during both matches. The damage I dealt is more or less the same, but due to the kill and win bonuses there's a huge gap between the respective rewards. If the overall damage was the main factor for the calculation of rewards, this gap would be much smaller.

This is not about rewarding players for a loss but rather about rewarding them for a good fight. I had fun in both matches. Actual players were present in each team and everybody was willing to fight. As a consequence I didn't really mind losing one of the matches, but the end screen was quite a downer nonetheless.

As far as I know the rewards are still 2x of what they will be after release. If the maintenance costs aren't doubled as well at the moment, the amount of silver I got for the loss will not be enough to cover them. (5670 silver repair fee on my Trincomalee currently.) That should only be the case if you didn't actually contribute something substantial to the match at all in my opinion.

Keeping the current system as it is will probably lead to a lot of frustration. Especially for players who care a bit more about progressing than I do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

Here's a nice example of the problem we discussed.

 

  Hide contents

5a3926aba8460_EndscreenVictory.jpg.2c4a950f8393deb7ff1d02c868e230a4.jpg

 

 

  Hide contents

5a3926e80230e_EndscreenDefeat.jpg.5181313dd467013bca19d4b4ea382fa5.jpg

 

I was on a Trincomalee during both matches. The damage I dealt is more or less the same, but due to the kill and win bonuses there's a huge gap between the respective rewards. If the overall damage was the main factor for the calculation of rewards, this gap would be much smaller.

This is not about rewarding players for a loss but rather about rewarding them for a good fight. I had fun in both matches. Actual players were present in each team and everybody was willing to fight. As a consequence I didn't really mind losing one of the matches, but the end screen was quite a downer nonetheless.

As far as I know the rewards are still 2x of what they will be after release. If the maintenance costs aren't doubled as well at the moment, the amount of silver I got for the loss will not be enough to cover them. (5670 silver repair fee on my Trincomalee currently.) That should only be the case if you didn't actually contribute something substantial to the match at all in my opinion.

Keeping the current system as it is will probably lead to a lot of frustration. Especially for players who care a bit more about progressing than I do.

In the above,

If you would have won the Battle the 6 assist Would have been 1032xp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jeremiah Gunsmoke

So, was looking at this with interest and made some assumptions roughly…

 

DEFEAT 6 assists = 516 xp ∆ 1 lost assist = 86 xp

We think its x2 for a win… roughly 86 x 2 = 172

The Win had 3 kills and 3 assists = 2,484 xp

Roughly 3x 172 = 516 Less total XP 2484 = 1968

1968 / 3 will give individual kill win = 656

A kill loss would assume 656/2 = 328

 

The idea…

I think looking at these rough numbers, the Win Assists seem to be the problem. Am thinking the win assist should not be doubled but remain the same. Only the KILL Win doubles. This would make percentage wise the assist valuable and encourage more team work…

 So, DEFEAT 516 XP and the Win would give 2226 instead of 2484. If the WIN match had resulted in a defeat instead you’ll have had gained 1,242.

Silver will look at later

 

 

Norfolk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JobaSet @Galileus @Norfolk nChance

 

On 28.11.2017 at 9:56 AM, admin said:

XP is granted for 

  • Damage XP: to crew, sails, masts, structure, hull
  • Kill xp: if target sinks you get the bonus equal to the target value in XP (but only if you got the kill)  
  • Objective XP: xp and money are granted for taking objectives
  • Win bonus - xp and money are increased by 50% for wins

Everyone who participated in sinking the target gets his part (even if he only shoot sails to stop the target). But the kill xp is granted to the person dealing most damage.

Every target has an XP value so you cannot increase your XP by shooting sails/hull etc.
You will get full kill XP even if you blow up the target by one lucky shot (if you are the only person who shot at the target). But the damage xp will be counting only that lucky shot.

Win bonus is +50% on your overall XP and silver you gained during the whole match. Basically the amount of XP and silver shown inside the 'with premium'-box is what I would have got if the defeat was a win. (Premium bonus is +50% as well if I'm not mistaken.) So even if my team had won the 6-assists-match, the rewards would have been quite sobering. (Considering that the only difference between the two matches then would have been the kill count, which is highly dependent on team composition.)

Please correct me if I got something wrong.

Edited by Jeremiah Gunsmoke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we're looking at roughly 2.5k XP for 3 kills and 3 assists, and 0.75k for 6 assists. Now, we can write it as 3X (kill) + 3Y(assist) +11Z (k dmg) and 6Y + 11Z respectively. Even if we assume best case scenario and say each assist is worth say 0.001k XP (leaving 0.7499k per 11kdmg), that would mean 3 kills on their own are responsible for insanely huge 1.75k XP, or 0.6k XP per kill.

 

That means... drumrolls... every kill bonus is worth almost as much as the whole match by itself. In the best case scenario.

 

Assume assists are worth 0.1k XP, and general dmg is the leftover 0.15k (which is more likely, seeing how lopsided kill bonus is already). That means almost 0.7k XP per kill. Get that small guy ASAP, right?

 

Let's just say I recently quit a otherwise fun match in a rage kind of variety. The match was stacked, which wasn't bad per se. The bad part was, it wouldn't even pay the bills, since I had no chance to actually score kills.

Edited by Galileus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Galileus said:

That means... drumrolls... every kill bonus is worth almost as much as the whole match by itself. In the best case scenario.

 

Yep agreed. @Jeremiah Gunsmoke as thrown up a great case study but would like to see another one to compare also. I agree, the Game pushes the best avenue to start is get 1x KILL first and on the smallest ship. Jeremiah pointing out the "Premium Account" numbers really show a ludicrous expansion over the normal account type. If I've read this right?

 

Re-Weighting Methods…

Don’t Use kills as a multiplier (except for the EVENT mechanic)? Focus solely on total Damage DEALT instead. The kills and assists are reference only…

Or use the enemy ship list Battle Rating (BR) as the devisor that then multiplies by a KILL bonus. So, the largest ship that’s sank gives the largest KILL XP or assist XP). The smallest the lowest likewise. This would make it more realistic reward system than encourage seal clubbing to start.

 

It’s a hard one to solve or evolve the reward system. How would you re-weight it?

 

Norfolk

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I not sure But getting Xp for kills or Assist, to me is not a problem.  I was sick last 2 days, so only got to play my inger today. Easily ran it up to 3rd slots today (With no officers as they are all bugged with the inger).

In a nut shell,  if you don't fight you don't get much xp.  I die more than most in battles, but get more kills, why is that you wonder.  I can tell you easy and simply, I fight, I don't sit on the edge at maxim fire range and pew pew with very little damage done nor I do not run.  This game has to many runners already and this will do nothing but cater to them.......End of Story. 

If you die in this game it DOES NOT EFFECT YOUR XP COLLECTED AT THE END OF THE MATCH.  So get in to the fight, Get killed and Start another match.  It is that simple, guys please stop kicking the already dead horse.  The only thing that needs to change in the Game like Right now is Bow Chasers back to like they were a year ago uncarebaer'ed up.  For giggles I would love to see chain only be able to be fired from the bow. 

I am sorry, but if I kill every AI in match, then have to Chase some carebear for 45 mins because, I rather sink, than cap a win out.

Hell no he should not get any XP his goal was to draw the game out and waste peoples time(that is how they think).  I love watching the carebears in smaller ships skirt maximum rage and do no Damage at all while I and my group utterly destroy the bigger ships with out having to worry about them. (on or not on my team)  Newbs.... yea its fine the way it is.

Edited by JobaSet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joba, could you read the topic next time before responding? Your great crusade against people running away is great and honour-fusor-able and all, but this is not the problem on the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Galileus said:

Joba, could you read the topic next time before responding? Your great crusade against people running away is great and honour-fusor-able and all, but this is not the problem on the table.

The topic is ''The problem with Kill XP" 
There is no problem, If you fight

Edited by JobaSet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I outlined every single problem with it in my first post. I ask for the second time, please read a topic before you reply in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Norfolk nChance said:

I'm assuming the Premium Box on the right would show what you would have got with a Premium Account. Notice in the UI top right yellow brackets (regular account).

Yes, the premium box shows what you would have got with a premium account. If you've lost a match however, the premium bonus is the same bonus you would have got for a win as both are a +50% increase on rewards. That's all I was saying. My concern isn't about premium. I'm totally fine with premium accounts earning more xp and silver than regular accounts as the game has to generate money somehow.

7 hours ago, JobaSet said:

In a nut shell,  if you don't fight you don't get much xp.

No offence intended, but I think you missed the point here. I didn't run away from the fights. I never do because I don't think it's fun. The screenshots I posted above show roughly the same amount of damage dealt to the enemy team. Despite this there's a significant difference in rewards even if you'd add the win bonus to the match my team lost. (37260 silver and 2484 xp vs. 11610 silver and 774 xp) Now, why did I get no kills in the 6-assists match? My team consisted of a player in an Agamemnon, a player in an Indefatigable, my Trincomalee and AI (random match, not grouped up before). The enemy team consisted of five or six players (some grouped up) in mostly smaller frigates and AI. It's hard to keep up with the damage an Agamemnon puts out while you are on a Trincomalee. (I at least tried to stay with the Agamemnon and hit the same targets.)

So to get that straight: I'm good with the one wo deals most damage getting the kill. I'm good with kills and assists granting bonus xp. However in my opinion the punishment for someone who contributed to the fight but simply didn't get a kill is too harsh at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/27/2017 at 6:49 PM, Galileus said:

PROBLEM

There is an ENORMOUS difference in XP between killing A ship and any other type of accolade.

Out the gate you get xp based on your ship you are in end of story.
 If you are in a Snow and Kill a Santy in your battle you get same xp for killing that santy, as You would the Mecery in the battle. 
This stops people From power grouping up with Santy in a brig so they can power threw it in one match.  and is Fair

 

 

ELABORATION

As it is now, there is only one thing that is REALLY rewarded by XP and silver gains - and that is to get the kill. With the system as it is, it does not matter what we killed nor just how darn close we were with the assist. Just get the kill. By any means necessary. This creates a series of HUGE problems. As it is the system promotes:

- Focusing on one target no matter what  This is what you are suppose to do.

- Single play and ignoring the team Any team worth anything will single player out and Swarm them.  Again see no problem here

- Isolating yourself from others with a single prey to maximize the chances for getting a kill.  This is going to happen, and the extreme most ineffective way to get xp

- Body... uhm... hullblocking team-mates from getting shots  I not seen this yet but i sure it didnt end well for someone as AI prob boarded them

- Lone-wolfing Better to play as a Group you will get more xp over all.  There was a reason they took combat logs away as i quickly made a phazer in like 10 sec and was able to see what people were doing in my group/team with out actually looking at them.

- Avoiding focusing fire on team target. Again this is ex-stream and could cause a loss in effect give you 1/2 of the xp you would have gotten if you had won.

and most of all... who do you focus in the match as shown in the image?  What work for one group don't work for the next.  Good rule of thumb do what ever person in front of you does 4 or 5 full broadside will sink most boats of equal rate.

- Targeting newest and weakest players. Doh no really kill the weak guy 1st.  Just like in any game ever made then work on the big guy last.

Just to drive the point home... From XP gain standpoint it is much more lucrative for the Renos in a fight to hunt down cutters than to hunt any other prey. And focusing fire or team-work? This is just straight insanity. Sorry I call Foul ran a ingermandland up 3 almost 4 slots easy today with no officers that worked starting with nothing and I was the lowest boat most of the time.

 

Unless that focus fire is on the squishiest target in there. Not good times, lemme tell ya. As it is now, this is a petri dish of toxic and hateful community, as the game itself promotes screwing others, on both teams.9 out of 10 times primary target is closest person to closest team mate.  If you move to much at start of fight you will be to spread out.  In other words 1st person that gets shot at dies.

 

SOLUTIONS AND CONSIDERATIONS

1) Introduce a mechanic that allows you to track progress of what and how gains you XP. Such mechanics might include post-battle screens and in-match accolades. This is not a bad idea. But will only prove that the ones crying the most about xp are doing the lest amount of damage.

2) Possibly start rewarding certain cap-oriented activities. This one is tricky though - many fights with one cap zone simply happen in the circle, with people outside being just as useful as the ones inside. This one just make my head hurt.  The people out side the Circle are not as useful as the one in the circle they are taken very little risk and you want to reward them.  One's in circle have the greatest risk by such a huge factor they have to deal with the lose of  crew, losing Sprits, getting boarded, Even getting Chained to death(not),Getting attacked by more than one player at a time.

3) Change current kill-XP to a pool that can be gained as max. This pool would then be either awarded to any player as a percent of damage done (with 100% aw/*5arded with enough hull/structure damage to guarantee sinking, and not increasing above that) or split it between all players that damaged said ship. Hell no, Just No.- Rewarding for just being in the game.

4) Reduce amount of XP gained in the way mentioned above depending on difference in ship BR and the status of the ship by the end of the match. For example, a ship of 100BR sinking a ship of 50BR gets 100% of it's XP worth divided by the BR difference - meaning 100% / (100/50) = 50%. If the ship didn't sink (even though it was going to) before the end of the match, award 50% less XP - resulting in total of 25% for the attacker. No, it is simple and clean atm.  It took weeks for people to understand you didn't get crap for xp if all you did was Chain people.  It will still take more weeks for them to understand that dieing does not hurt you xp gained

5) In case of split XP (which would allow to better control overall XP gains and lower XP inflation), consider both approaches - first split the XP and then account for BR enalties (overall less XP in the system, lesser rewards for in-rank attackers), or account for them while splitting (in-rank attackers get the leftover XP high-rank attackers "lost" due to their advantage)

6) To consider - NOT increasing XP rewards for smaller ships damaging bigger ships. Or, alternatively, capping or counting them non-linearly (so that we don't get cutters shooting cannonballs of gold at a victory).

7) Account for crew damage and sail damage in the XP pool, hopefully to be shared with the hull points one - so that we avoid "shoot their sails to max XP" situation.

8) Include special accolades for reaching thresholds in specialization - so either being a single attacker who managed to lower the crew or sail HP by increments of (possibly) 25%, 50% or 75%. These should be non-linear (25% shouldn't be worth much, 75% should be solid). Each of those could work as a out-of-system XP bonus or can be taken into consideration within the XP pool to be spent.

9) Next point is very important, so I want it to have a number...

10) If opting for maximum control system, where no points are either added or removed from the pool (by taking "special rewards" from the pool, and returning penalty cuts into the pool), the system remains at exact the budget of XP gain per match as it is now, except it is shared between players smartly, and does not promote vicious and predatory behavior. Opposite to that, the more ship sink the better for everyone who helped to sink them, no matter what role he played - and the more teamwork, the more ships sink. Stop making this so hard, kill be killed start over it is that simple

 

Edited by JobaSet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant, read with understanding.

 

Quote

- Single play and ignoring the team Any team worth anything will single player out and Swarm them.  Again see no problem here

 

I say players will play alone and ignore what their team does, you answer this is what good teams do. I stopped reading here. If you are going to rush something just to try and prove me wrong, again, do not answer.

 

Having nothing to say is fine, saying anything just to seem to be a part of the discussion is not. I will not put in the time to read your posts if I know for sure you do not put time into writing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

No offence intended, but I think you missed the point here. I didn't run away from the fights. I never do because I don't think it's fun. The screenshots I posted above show roughly the same amount of damage dealt to the enemy team. Despite this there's a significant difference in rewards even if you'd add the win bonus to the match my team lost. (37260 silver and 2484 xp vs. 11610 silver and 774 xp) Now, why did I get no kills in the 6-assists match? My team consisted of a player in an Agamemnon, a player in an Indefatigable, my Trincomalee and AI (random match, not grouped up before). The enemy team consisted of five or six players (some grouped up) in mostly smaller frigates and AI. It's hard to keep up with the damage an Agamemnon puts out while you are on a Trincomalee. (I at least tried to stay with the Agamemnon and hit the same targets.)

Where you in the same Ship? I ask this because XP is directly related to the ship you are in.

Edited by JobaSet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just now, JobaSet said:

Where you in the same Ship?

21 hours ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

I was on a Trincomalee during both matches.

 

Can we ban someone out of our topic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Xp for kills is a bad idea, i keep getting uptiered, yes we will need "Tiers" in this game against higher tiers even small frigs and i can barely kill them get no xp for helping to kill them...so how am i to help my team win if i get nothing for helping to kill a larger ships then me?

 

Im only in a Brig fighting snows and cerbs...what am i to do?

Edited by ironhammer500

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×