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Galileus

The problem with Kill XP

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PROBLEM

There is an ENORMOUS difference in XP between killing A ship and any other type of accolade.

 

ELABORATION

As it is now, there is only one thing that is REALLY rewarded by XP and silver gains - and that is to get the kill. With the system as it is, it does not matter what we killed nor just how darn close we were with the assist. Just get the kill. By any means necessary. This creates a series of HUGE problems. As it is the system promotes:

- Focusing on one target no matter what

- Single play and ignoring the team

- Isolating yourself from others with a single prey to maximize the chances for getting a kill

- Body... uhm... hullblocking team-mates from getting shots

- Lone-wolfing

- Avoiding focusing fire on team target

and most of all... who do you focus in the match as shown in the image?

- Targeting newest and weakest players

Just to drive the point home... From XP gain standpoint it is much more lucrative for the Renos in a fight to hunt down cutters than to hunt any other prey. And focusing fire or team-work? This is just straight insanity.

 

Unless that focus fire is on the squishiest target in there. Not good times, lemme tell ya. As it is now, this is a petri dish of toxic and hateful community, as the game itself promotes screwing others, on both teams.

 

SOLUTIONS AND CONSIDERATIONS

1) Introduce a mechanic that allows you to track progress of what and how gains you XP. Such mechanics might include post-battle screens and in-match accolades.

2) Possibly start rewarding certain cap-oriented activities. This one is tricky though - many fights with one cap zone simply happen in the circle, with people outside being just as useful as the ones inside.

3) Change current kill-XP to a pool that can be gained as max. This pool would then be either awarded to any player as a percent of damage done (with 100% awarded with enough hull/structure damage to guarantee sinking, and not increasing above that) or split it between all players that damaged said ship.

4) Reduce amount of XP gained in the way mentioned above depending on difference in ship BR and the status of the ship by the end of the match. For example, a ship of 100BR sinking a ship of 50BR gets 100% of it's XP worth divided by the BR difference - meaning 100% / (100/50) = 50%. If the ship didn't sink (even though it was going to) before the end of the match, award 50% less XP - resulting in total of 25% for the attacker.

5) In case of split XP (which would allow to better control overall XP gains and lower XP inflation), consider both approaches - first split the XP and then account for BR penalties (overall less XP in the system, lesser rewards for in-rank attackers), or account for them while splitting (in-rank attackers get the leftover XP high-rank attackers "lost" due to their advantage)

6) To consider - NOT increasing XP rewards for smaller ships damaging bigger ships. Or, alternatively, capping or counting them non-linearly (so that we don't get cutters shooting cannonballs of gold at a victory).

7) Account for crew damage and sail damage in the XP pool, hopefully to be shared with the hull points one - so that we avoid "shoot their sails to max XP" situation.

8) Include special accolades for reaching thresholds in specialization - so either being a single attacker who managed to lower the crew or sail HP by increments of (possibly) 25%, 50% or 75%. These should be non-linear (25% shouldn't be worth much, 75% should be solid). Each of those could work as a out-of-system XP bonus or can be taken into consideration within the XP pool to be spent.

9) Next point is very important, so I want it to have a number...

10) If opting for maximum control system, where no points are either added or removed from the pool (by taking "special rewards" from the pool, and returning penalty cuts into the pool), the system remains at exact the budget of XP gain per match as it is now, except it is shared between players smartly, and does not promote vicious and predatory behavior. Opposite to that, the more ship sink the better for everyone who helped to sink them, no matter what role he played - and the more teamwork, the more ships sink.

20171128002123_1.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Galileus said:

As it is now, there is only one thing that is REALLY rewarded by XP and silver gains - and that is to get the kill.

I just did a test on the three circle map. went off alone and killed one essex in my essex by taking down one side and structure, about 190 hits with stock guns. Then capped all three circles while my poor bots died. Just waited for the 1000 points to accumulate. Won: 1770 xp.

Not saying you're wrong, but a healthy xp payout just sailing around (winning the match by cap).

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Might very well be wrong. There is a reason number one is number one, and that is because it is unclear how XP is calculated.

 

As a considerably new NAL and somewhat experienced (though rusty) NA player, it led me to conclusions that I arrived at - and the arrival itself is actually much important then the truth as long as that truth is hidden or obfuscated. Full disclosure though, I never played around with capping much, and never properly calculated assist XP nor anything like that - yet I've seen predictable amounts of XP coming off of kills marker enough times to be pretty sure in my kill XP findings and resulting problems. Nevertheless, at lowest rates the stigma against capping was clearly visible, and came in a form of "no XP though!".

 

Nevertheless, the more we know the easier it is to point fingers at admin and laugh. So if you ever feel bored and feel like capping some circles, I will gladly hear the results :)

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heh. When faced with bots nothing matters to me, just get it done with as much xp as possible in as little time as possible. Main plan: max damage. Backup in case my bots fail: secure the win, everything goes.

Sidenote: I like the cap circles since I don't have to worry about runners and kiters. Keeps us honest.

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7 hours ago, Galileus said:

This one is tricky though - many fights with one cap zone simply happen in the circle, with people outside being just as useful as the ones inside.

What about:

Capping give points, contesting cap give points.

Shooting from cap give points (defending), shooting enemy who are in the cap or was in the cap shortly before (to avoid abuse of the cap boundary) give points (attacking/supporting)?

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1 hour ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

Except the way circles work now encourages running in some instances. Example.

I wasn't there in your example ofc, but didn't that sneaky merc work for that win?

Correct me if I'm wrong; They/he secured cap points while your team was committed to the furball. By the time you reacted it was too late even if you flipped one or two circles?

This happened to MG, baltic and me too. We ground damage for xp, ignoring cap. We thought we had time to deal with the scumbag cap coward :P  We were wrong.

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10 hours ago, Galileus said:

 

SOLUTIONS AND CONSIDERATIONS

2) Possibly start rewarding certain cap-oriented activities. This one is tricky though - many fights with one cap zone simply happen in the circle, with people outside being just as useful as the ones inside.

3) Change current kill-XP to a pool that can be gained as max. This pool would then be either awarded to any player as a percent of damage done (with 100% awarded with enough hull/structure damage to guarantee sinking, and not increasing above that) or split it between all players that damaged said ship.

5) In case of split XP (which would allow to better control overall XP gains and lower XP inflation), consider both approaches - first split the XP and then account for BR penalties (overall less XP in the system, lesser rewards for in-rank attackers), or account for them while splitting (in-rank attackers get the leftover XP high-rank attackers "lost" due to their advantage)

7) Account for crew damage and sail damage in the XP pool, hopefully to be shared with the hull points one - so that we avoid "shoot their sails to max XP" situation.

 

 

It is already almost as you have described. 

XP is granted for 

  • Damage XP: to crew, sails, masts, structure, hull
  • Kill xp: if target sinks you get the bonus equal to the target value in XP (but only if you got the kill)  
  • Objective XP: xp and money are granted for taking objectives
  • Win bonus - xp and money are increased by 50% for wins

Everyone who participated in sinking the target gets his part (even if he only shoot sails to stop the target). But the kill xp is granted to the person dealing most damage.

Every target has an XP value so you cannot increase your XP by shooting sails/hull etc.
You will get full kill XP even if you blow up the target by one lucky shot (if you are the only person who shot at the target). But the damage xp will be counting only that lucky shot.

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2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I wasn't there in your example ofc, but didn't that sneaky merc work for that win?

Correct me if I'm wrong; They/he secured cap points while your team was committed to the furball. By the time you reacted it was too late even if you flipped one or two circles?

This happened to MG, baltic and me too. We ground damage for xp, ignoring cap. We thought we had time to deal with the scumbag cap coward :P  We were wrong.

Not exactly. The furball was going on in the lower right (though one of them had time to go get C, which we clearly ignored), meanwhile I was fighting 1 against 2 on the lower left, and had the circle covered pretty much until I got boarded, and the other guy decided to go cap instead of getting free shots into my stern or hull, meaning I won that boarding action, and the following exchange, but perhaps also that they won the silly circle game.

I wouldn't have minded as much if they'd won while having the majority of the circles (even though I think winning by circles is stupid, boring, and in the case of multiple-circle-maps nonsensical), but don't you also think the system whereby they can carry on winning even when we have the majority of circles and a 3 to 1 advantage in ships is silly? - Especially since they only won because the Mercury stalled for time (read: "ran") at the end.

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It's possible this can be tuned  to work "better".

If we don't have objectives we know we'll have running. However well it's designed I'm sure there will still be situations that seem off, grief to win or whatever.

I'm noticing that even letting one guy cap a circle early on is a threat to my winning chances. Either chase him or cap a diff circle to balance his capping out.

It all seems ok to me, but I'm not excluding possible room for improvement.

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IMO the circle system works fairly well, even if its not exactly immersive. It forces some tactical choise, other than "gain advantage of the wind and strike". 

(I am still only playing unrated, so it might differ on SOL play)

Edited by dagdriver
addition + spelling

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well the thing i miss is:

Leaderboards for the ship class.

and a calculation of the rewards,(it feels strange to win a game(or lose a game) and suddenly your in the dock)

I always get surprised at the results for some reason.

 

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Congrats for completely derailing the topic.

 

2 hours ago, admin said:

It is already almost as you have described. 

 

Then I would still highly recommend giving away singular kill accolade bonus and splitting it to buff out the damage bonuses. Unless I'm wrong again, these seem to bump the XP count significantly, and that gets us back to the problems outlined in post#1. While I'm fine with one-shot-kill lucky guy getting full XP, it is not so obvious when there exists a bonus XP that can be grabbed by the biggest guy in the fight.

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Maybe its a bit too much. Losing on its own feels bad enough already and on top of that you get much less XP and gold.

I kind of agree with that. While I'm good with players getting a bonus for a win and a kill/assist, I really think the main thing that grants XP should be the damage you deal to your opponents. This way you achieve two things:

  1. You promote actual fighting.
  2. You reward players for good fights, even if they lose the match at the end.

The potential damage you can deal in a cutter is obviously lower than it is in a frigate or even a ship of the line. However that's balanced already due to the larger amounts of XP you need to progress in larger ships.

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56 minutes ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

I kind of agree with that. While I'm good with players getting a bonus for a win and a kill/assist, I really think the main thing that grants XP should be the damage you deal to your opponents. This way you achieve two things:

  1. You promote actual fighting.
  2. You reward players for good fights, even if they lose the match at the end.

The potential damage you can deal in a cutter is obviously lower than it is in a frigate or even a ship of the line. However that's balanced already due to the larger amounts of XP you need to progress in larger ships.

i all agree

but capping of the circle is a tactical advantage, in this case,

capping of the circle what give point should be kept even when loose the battle (different ball game mostly the weaker captain get that task or is willing to do so)

and should be rewarded in this case

no matter if you lose or win 

capping is a solid reward for the captain even if there is a loss

( and recapture of the same cap is rewarded to )

 

what i mostly see is that the fighting for ships is the primary task even when loosing on capturing circles  by the opposite party

the captains are indifferent on helping out on capturing or are telling that it is not important or they don't give a ...t

they even order you to not go there(what means it has no value for them)

capturing circles and gain victory points on capping should be valued more , to come to a more dynamic campaign on the battle ground

just shooting guns is lame after 20 runs 

 

also, the Ai is to dangerous to board they even out tackle you in the last 0 .5 second in boarding (but thats a other topic i think

 

 

 

Edited by Thonys

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2 hours ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

I kind of agree with that. While I'm good with players getting a bonus for a win and a kill/assist, I really think the main thing that grants XP should be the damage you deal to your opponents. This way you achieve two things:

  1. You promote actual fighting.
  2. You reward players for good fights, even if they lose the match at the end.

 

This is not World of tanks or CS… this is Naval Action.
Kill is granted to the person who delivered most damage (not the last shot)

So it already DOES promote both actual fighting and focus fire. It does not matter when you did it. if you delivered 51% damage to the ship for example and sank in the beginning of battle and someone else destroyed your target 1 hour later = YOU will get the kill. 

ps. i could have misunderstood your post though.. 

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@admin

Uh, sorry. I guess my post was a bit unclear there.

I know that the kill is granted to the player that dealt the most damage. I was mostly referring to what @Jon Snow lets go said: That the bonus you get for a win might be too big.

Currently you get quite a lot of XP and silver if you did well in the fight (damage, kills, assists - as you said) and got the win. If you did well in the fight but lost the match, the rewards drop significantly since you are missing the +50% increase for the win. So what I'm thinking about is basically, that lowering the bonus for the win and instead slightly increasing the rewards for the damage you deal might ease the situation for someone who put up a good fight but lost due to other circumstances.

It's the same with the kill bonus. I don't know how much XP/silver is rewarded for those, but if it's too much in comparison to the regular damage XP, players will be better off with securing one single kill instead of trying to survive and getting more damge out over time. That's what @Galileus mentioned here:

18 hours ago, Galileus said:

- Focusing on one target no matter what

- Single play and ignoring the team

- Isolating yourself from others with a single prey to maximize the chances for getting a kill

- Body... uhm... hullblocking team-mates from getting shots

- Lone-wolfing

- Avoiding focusing fire on team target

Examples:

  1. The win bonus: Player A gets 3 kills and 3 assists during a match. Player B gets the same amount of kills and assists and dealt roughly the same amount of damage, but his team wins the match in addition. Although both players performed equally well, the huge win bonus causes Player A to feel that he isn't really rewarded for his performance. There should be a bonus for a win, but it shouldn't be a major factor in the calculation of rewards because the individual effort becomes less important this way.
  2. The kill bonus: Player A deals 500 damage to an enemy ship. Player B deals 510 damage to the same enemy ship. Both players get XP and silver for the damage they dealt, but player B gets a bonus for the kill. If this bonus is too big (somewhat exceeds the XP and silver rewarded for only the damage), player A will conclude that it's better for his progress to not help his teammate next time but to search himself another target he can get the kill bonus for.

I hope this is a bit clearer now.

 

Edited by Jeremiah Gunsmoke

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 I await some better post battle breakdown eagerly - I am more than aware how prone to bias and mistakes my findings are. And keeping close track of it now I can see how loosing win bonus could feel like loosing out kill bonuses - since both would often come in pair. Cannot say for sure either way.

 

That being said, I share Gunsmoke's view about win bonus being too much. If nothing else, because it promotes winning even if this means generally unfun tactics like running to cap as soon as the fight goes sour. Which - granted - can and should be adressed by more fine tuning of victorh mechanics as well as xp.

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Isn't it always in your interest to keep teammates alive? Get/keep the numerical advantage? It gives more chance to kill the opponent and win the circles? 

Only going for the kill will/might result in a loss if the other team goes for circles? Sometimes the battles are so unbalanced that going for the circle is the best option.

I have more matches with assists (often on all enemy ships) than kills, but i try to help teammates out and survive together ... because, they aren't usefull if they are dead (same goes for the ai in those battles, better to keep them alive and use them to soak up steel as long as possible while you can really focus on being in a better position? (I basically ignore the enemy-ai, until all players have been sunk or are just too far away)

Edited by Eyesore

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On 11/28/2017 at 2:56 AM, admin said:

It is already almost as you have described. 

XP is granted for 

  • Damage XP: to crew, sails, masts, structure, hull
  • Kill xp: if target sinks you get the bonus equal to the target value in XP (but only if you got the kill)  
  • Objective XP: xp and money are granted for taking objectives
  • Win bonus - xp and money are increased by 50% for wins

Everyone who participated in sinking the target gets his part (even if he only shoot sails to stop the target). But the kill xp is granted to the person dealing most damage.

Every target has an XP value so you cannot increase your XP by shooting sails/hull etc.
You will get full kill XP even if you blow up the target by one lucky shot (if you are the only person who shot at the target). But the damage xp will be counting only that lucky shot.

Would it not be helpful if assists also granted xp? Maybe half as much as for the kill, or even 25%? That would incentivize better team tactics....

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:02 PM, jodgi said:

It's possible this can be tuned  to work "better".

If we don't have objectives we know we'll have running. However well it's designed I'm sure there will still be situations that seem off, grief to win or whatever.

I'm noticing that even letting one guy cap a circle early on is a threat to my winning chances. Either chase him or cap a diff circle to balance his capping out.

It all seems ok to me, but I'm not excluding possible room for improvement.

@jodgi & @Niels Terkildsen

 

Has the “Furball” mentioned, and in my reply, I agree the circle mechanic needs a proper tweak. The Circles need to be devalued somehow that stops them been a game winner at 1,000pts.

They should give some value but not the final victory in NA-L. So, last ship standing in other words. The Circles add an extra strategic development but implies something outside the actual battle as in my case.

The FORT & Circles again is the same issue.

Currently playing now on NA-L we say “o7” and agree not to Cap. This is all very gentlemanly but @admin needs to take note.

Maybe at 1,000 pts the team gets 3x AI ship reinforcements. Or at 1,000 pts all the teams remaining ships get a 50% repair and crew boost. Or am sure you guys have better ideas…

 

Whatever the mechanic this should be the strategic element or interest in the circles but not the primary focus of the game…

 

Norfolk nFurball

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

They should give some value but not the final victory in NA-L. So, last ship standing in other words.

Imagine only two ships left, one per team. An Indef has gone downwind  sniping at the furball further downwind and comes out of it last man standing. On the other team a frigate has fought and beat an Essex further upwind, he is really banged up with 31 guys on perma survival but is managing to keep the water out.

Nothing but cap circles can make it possible for the frig to win. Even a magic repair back to full health and crew won't be enough. We will not have AI as a plan!

Those who make cap circle the main focus will lose just the same as those who ignore the circles. Remember the circles aren't designed to be the main focus, they solve a big kiting and running problem we absolutely know the player base will devolve into if there's nothing to keep people honest ;)

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17 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Imagine only two ships left, one per team. An Indef has gone downwind  sniping at the furball further downwind and comes out of it last man standing. On the other team a frigate has fought and beat an Essex further upwind, he is really banged up with 31 guys on perma survival but is managing to keep the water out.

Nothing but cap circles can make it possible for the frig to win. Even a magic repair back to full health and crew won't be enough. We will not have AI as a plan!

Those who make cap circle the main focus will lose just the same as those who ignore the circles. Remember the circles aren't designed to be the main focus, they solve a big kiting and running problem we absolutely know the player base will devolve into if there's nothing to keep people honest ;)

that's a fair point @jodgi  , they the circles are not the main focus. Never thought of it that way as in preventing kiting.

I'm not experienced enough to think of solution in this context now...

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Imagine only two ships left, one per team. An Indef has gone downwind  sniping at the furball further downwind and comes out of it last man standing. On the other team a frigate has fought and beat an Essex further upwind, he is really banged up with 31 guys on perma survival but is managing to keep the water out.

Nothing but cap circles can make it possible for the frig to win. Even a magic repair back to full health and crew won't be enough. We will not have AI as a plan!

If this match was balanced from the beginning, it's only fair that the Indefatigable wins. I'm not really understanding what you're suggesting here: should the Cherubim run for the circles and kite in order to get the win at this point - (rhetorical alternative: or should he accept his and his team's fate?)

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Those who make cap circle the main focus will lose just the same as those who ignore the circles. 

Sometimes, yes, this is true. If they over-focus on circles, the other team might be able to sink them before the points reach 1k - but if one of them starts kiting in the end, they might snatch the win nonetheless.

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Remember the circles aren't designed to be the main focus, they solve a big kiting and running problem we absolutely know the player base will devolve into if there's nothing to keep people honest ;)

One circle is absolutely fine for this and should suffice; it's all that's needed to prevent excessive kiting and running. The real issues appear when we have two or three circles.

I already gave you an example (above post) how the three circle system with constant tick can grant victory to the de facto losing team. I'll give you one where a two circle map encouraged kiting:

I played the map with the fort, we had two players each side, and their side managed to capture the fort, so we decided to go for their circle instead, and get out of fort range. One of their players saw this in time and rushed to stop our capture, which he succeeded in. Then we pommelled him a bit, until we saw that their other player went for our circle, so I broke off to prevent this... Since my ship was significantly more damaged than his though, upon arrival all I did was to tactically keep my distance while being in the circle just enough to prevent them from capping it. This I did quite successfully while my teammate finished off the other player, capped their circle and gave us the win rather quickly.

A circle win for us, and really nothing to be proud of.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry for derailing the thread, these posts should really be moved to "Map and battle type feedback".

Edited by Niels Terkildsen

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