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Demasting


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As the title states..

 

Are we satisfied with the demasting meta?

I'm finding the ease with which we are demasted/demasts to be ludicrous. Historically demasting was rare and not something the naval commanders actively pursued due to the difficulty in actually hitting the masts. In NA however you can hit with about 50% of the balls. What infuriate me is that we've already had this discussion - a great, great number of times. And yet the devs @admin keep turning back to what I consider an unrealistic combat mechanic and something we have already tested.

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10 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

As the title states..

 

Are we satisfied with the demasting meta?

I'm finding the ease with which we are demasted/demasts to be ludicrous. Historically demasting was rare and not something the naval commanders actively pursued due to the difficulty in actually hitting the masts. In NA however you can hit with about 50% of the balls. What infuriate me is that we've already had this discussion - a great, great number of times. And yet the devs @admin keep turning back to what I consider an unrealistic combat mechanic and something we have already tested.

Have you even seen Master and Commander?

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6 minutes ago, Wyy said:

Have you even seen Master and Commander?

lol yeah, so let's have hollywood dictate realism. I also happen to have read a number of reports from naval actions, mostly small scale engagements from the Danish-Norwegian vs Sweden wars and I can literally count the number of mentioned demasts on one hand (as in 1). This could ofcourse be because the demasting was such a common occurence that it didn't warrant mentioning, or.... probably the most likely seen as how devastating a demast could be.. such a rare occurence that it warranted special mention and from the lack of empirical evidence to the contrary we can conclude that it almost never happened outside of major fleet engagements, where both the calliber of the balls and (more relevant) the amount of balls fired was larger.

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23 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Remove the single cannon UI aim overlay.

Leave only the full broadside angle area overlay.

 

But it won't change the fact that the cannons we work with are far more accurate than anything ever experienced in a smooth bore cannon. And what is worse - We have already discussed this. The aggravating fact is that this discussion isn't new, but with the latest iteration of combat mechanics - pen upgrades, a plentitude of accuracy upgrades - it has become an issue. Again. As if the devs don't think their upgrades and their effect through just a little before implementing them.

EDIT: This game has a lot more in common with league of legends, than a naval action game set in the age of sails. We have tried all these "metas" before. At no point do you need to have a basic understanding of the periods naval tactics, but a great understanding of how other MMO hack'n'slashs work. 

Edited by Guest
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Yes. Precision is high.

You can test this versus a black paint heavy frigate and using a brig or a corvette. The accuracy is okay as I see it, they fall into the predicted vertical and horizontal area. The precision is too high and grouping is too tight imo :)

Put modules in, mix precision and penetration ( all on the 10% range ) and baaaaam.

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42 minutes ago, Wyy said:

Have you even seen Master and Commander?

That was a carefully aimed broadside from point blank range, though. With actual back wheels removed from the carriage so the gunners could elevate the cannons high enought to even hit the mast.

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Our guns are more accurate than anything from this era irl. Each shot should have a 5 to 10 meter variance any direction. A perfectly aimed shot should have maybe a 5 percent chance of hitting a mast. At over 250 meters it wasn't even certain you could hit a broadside let alone a mast. 

We had eliminated the ridiculous demasting meta last year then the devs brought it back for some unknown reason. 

In the same vein,  chain should be limited to several broadsides per match and it's accuracy also needs reduced a bit as well. The objective of battle should be to fight, not a cheesy De sail or demast and a bum rush to board and play Rock Paper Scissors. 

And for the record, I heavily use chain. And despite that, yes I am in favor of limiting it for the good of the game, and to the detriment of my combat preferences.

Edited by Malachy
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What about USS Constitution vs HMS Java? Check out the Constitution's logs and the historical records. Java tried repeatedly to stern rake Constitution. In return, Constitution removed nearly all of Java's masts in short order. 

What about all of the lineship battles that resulted in multiple demastings? 

Stop with the made-up idea that demasting is not a historical tactic.

Our guns may be more accurate in game than in real life, but I'd like to remind everyone that this is a game where some levels of historical accuracy are sacrifiiced for gameplay. Look at our insanely fast reload times, the instant movement of yards, magic mast re-growing, concepts such as HP and magic figureheads, etc. The game is not a simulator.

If you don't want to be demasted, throw an elite French rig refit on and be done with it. Then you only have to worry about larger ships taking your masts, or dedicated demasting built ships.

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4 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

movie =/= reality.

 

4 hours ago, Bearwall said:

lol yeah, so let's have hollywood dictate realism. I also happen to have read a number of reports from naval actions, mostly small scale engagements from the Danish-Norwegian vs Sweden wars and I can literally count the number of mentioned demasts on one hand (as in 1). This could ofcourse be because the demasting was such a common occurence that it didn't warrant mentioning, or.... probably the most likely seen as how devastating a demast could be.. such a rare occurence that it warranted special mention and from the lack of empirical evidence to the contrary we can conclude that it almost never happened outside of major fleet engagements, where both the calliber of the balls and (more relevant) the amount of balls fired was larger.

 

3 hours ago, AxIslander said:

Why not Harry Potter?

well so you guys say that raising all masts and repairing sails aswell as give thousands of rum to the crew to go back and fight and repair the hull back to full health is realisitc?

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On 23.11.2017 at 11:13 PM, Bearwall said:

If that is what you take from this and other of my posts you're either this or that...

I'm neither sorry, but I think you underestimate the accuracy of the cannons of that time, this age is set when the gunlock was invented meaning direct fire, and since the barrel of the cannon is so long it wasnt that inaccurate. Just a quick google will help you out there. And since this game allows you to get the hp on the whole mast section not depending on where you hit on the bottom section it wouldnt be impossible as you allmost suggest it would be

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a sollution could maybe be to have more hitboxes on the masts sections so you would have to hit a mast multiple times at the same spot to be able to demast

Edited by Guest
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44 minutes ago, Wyy said:

I'm neither sorry, but I think you underestimate the accuracy of the cannons of that time, this age is set when the gunlock was invented meaning direct fire, and since the barrel of the cannon is so long it wasnt that inaccurate. Just a quick google will help you out there. And since this game allows you to get the hp on the whole mast section not depending on where you hit on the bottom section it wouldnt be impossible as you allmost suggest it would be

I've fired a smooth bore cannon irl. It missed by over 100 feet. We corrected, it missed by over 50 feet. Corrected again, missed by 44 feet. Took 9 shots to hit the target. This was on land and the guy aiming them built cannons for a living and has aimed and fired them thousands of times. Smooth bore cannons are not accurate at all. Our target was 10 feet wide and 10 feet high at 500 yards. And the cannon was a 6lb civil war era weapon. It was state of the art for the time so probably better made than anything out ships have on them.

Edited by Malachy
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4 hours ago, Willis PVP2 said:

What about USS Constitution vs HMS Java? Check out the Constitution's logs and the historical records. Java tried repeatedly to stern rake Constitution. In return, Constitution removed nearly all of Java's masts in short order. 

What about all of the lineship battles that resulted in multiple demastings? 

Stop with the made-up idea that demasting is not a historical tactic.

Our guns may be more accurate in game than in real life, but I'd like to remind everyone that this is a game where some levels of historical accuracy are sacrifiiced for gameplay. Look at our insanely fast reload times, the instant movement of yards, magic mast re-growing, concepts such as HP and magic figureheads, etc. The game is not a simulator.

If you don't want to be demasted, throw an elite French rig refit on and be done with it. Then you only have to worry about larger ships taking your masts, or dedicated demasting built ships.

We don't want demasting removed, just accuracy of guns fixed. Right now we all have rail guns that hit right where you point them. Smooth bore cannons don't work that way. If no one has pinpoint accuracy, demasting won't be a huge issue like it is now. I demasted a Connie today with my bellona in the first attempt and i am not very good at it. That shouldn't happen. 

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3 hours ago, Malachy said:

 Smooth bore cannons are not accurate at all. Our target was 10 feet wide and 10 feet high at 500 yards.

And had you kept shooting, most of the rounds would have hit the target. Smoothbore cannon were tolerably precise, with cannoneers expected to have a reasonable chance of a first-round hit on a target like that.

On land, anyway. The whole problem for naval gunnery was the unstable platform and the lack of sights and ranging.

But if you reduce the accuracy to the point that dismasting gets much harder, the game will be unplayable. So long as you can expect to get all your shots somewhere within the general silhouette of your target's rigging, masts will come down. That's how it always used to be with fleets of SoLs shooting at each other.

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16 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Without demasting, a SoL have zero chance to survive against several frigstes.

You need to play some since the last patch. Sol can not only survive but thrive without demasting. You also can achieve the same result with chain, so SOL don't NEED demasting at all. 

Edited by Malachy
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15 minutes ago, maturin said:

And had you kept shooting, most of the rounds would have hit the target. Smoothbore cannon were tolerably precise, with cannoneers expected to have a reasonable chance of a first-round hit on a target like that.

On land, anyway. The whole problem for naval gunnery was the unstable platform and the lack of sights and ranging.

But if you reduce the accuracy to the point that dismasting gets much harder, the game will be unplayable. So long as you can expect to get all your shots somewhere within the general silhouette of your target's rigging, masts will come down. That's how it always used to be with fleets of SoLs shooting at each other.

The issue isn't the fact that a cannon ball can bring down part of a mast, that's fine. But the fact that you can shoot every single cannonball and hit a mast. That's not fine. That's the issue, a player can put every single ball on the same tiny little point with both platforms moving and on an unsteady sea. Never happened irl and shouldn't happen in game. And there is a world of difference between a fleet shooting and one ship.

Edited by Malachy
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1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

You know well current gameplay is being tweaked. Also frigates hasnt been updated with the same sailing changes as SoL.

 

Demasting needs toned down no matter what they do to ships. And I don't think frigates will be getting near as much love because they already had it. I'd hazard that their profiles will Be tweaked but we won't see the same performance tweak we saw with 4th and larger. To give the frigates the same level of increase would make Them move unnaturally and that's not what this is supposed to achieve. 

 

Edited by Malachy
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