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limited ammunition


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Hello captains,

 

after a while playing now, i find it strange to see limited ammonition on double shoots and charged shoots but unlimited ammonition for the rest of the ammonition. I played another game "pirates: caribean hunt", these games are very similar but there is one major difference. The ammunition is limited to what you bought in a habour and loaded on to your ship. This works very well in my opinion. It also lays a small layer of complexity on the econemy.

What seems to be necessary is that we get some values how much powder is used in varios gun types dependend on the ammunition used. So for example would a charged shoot use more powder than a normal shoot. But i have no indepth knowledge on the differences between other variants. Furthermore we need to know what a certain ammount of projectiles and powder weight.

What this could add to the game is clear. Immersion and a way to balance very powerfull ships. Imagine you have to pay for every shoot you do on a ship like the L'ocean.

Edited by MasterBurte
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4 minutes ago, admin said:

limited ammo is a good idea for first couple of trips. After 1000 battles it will get tedious to constantly refill ammo.

Im sure there is abetter reason than "not beeing tedious". Is tedious aswell to repair ships, o to recrew them, of fill them with repairs and still these are mechanics that we can find inthe game.

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For the big ships the limit was not the solid ball shot ( let's not talk about other types of shot ) but the charges.

Example being the United States super frigate having to gain separation and during that respite it had to refill gunpowder charges after continuous combat and 70 broadsides.

But there are examples of engagements ending due to exhaustion of shot.

Reckon it could be addressed, especially for schooners up to light frigates.

 

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47 minutes ago, admin said:

limited ammo is a good idea for first couple of trips. After 1000 battles it will get tedious to constantly refill ammo.

I never understood why we had to pay for double charge and double ball. These should be things you learn as you level up.  Than do chain shot like you do double ball and charge and have a limited amount you can use in a battle before they run out and all you have is the unlimited amount of ball.  Grape can also be limited like this.  That way every new battle you get into your ammo is back to it's max amount, you just are limited per battle.  This will keep folks from doing nothing but spamming chain in a battle if they are going to eventually run out of ammo.  The problem is finding out that balanced sweet spot of how much a ship could carry.

As for the perks have ya'll every thought about having the combat perks limited to your rank (like it is now) and than having the crafting perks linked to your crafting level?  Right now you can not have a crafter and a combat char set up if they have maxed rank in both.  They really should be tied to there ranks/levels respectively. If some one is Maxed out Rank but have no crafting levels they will only have combat perks set off there rank. IF they have low rank but maxed out crafting they will have very few combat perks but a lot of crafting.  If they are an old fart like me maxed out in both then they would have a lot of crafting and combat marks.  This will also give folks reason not to use alts.  I have three pirates. One is set up for Heavy/PB style combat, one is set up for lightship/scouts.  The last is poorly nothing but a crafter.  Why does some one have to run 3+ chars to do that?

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It's intended to refill balls and powder. I wouldn't find this annoing. The opposite, i think aiming get's even more important. Big ships of the line think twice to "waste shoots on smaller targets, what would benefit the gentelmens agreement, that you shoot the ship, that is your weight class, if possible. Another thing that would be made possible (with damage model adjustment) are ammo explosions.

I don't think it is a good option to refill everything automaticly after a battle. Quite the opposite, i want you to pay for the shoots you fired. At the moment there are no real running costs for a ship. Crew costs only to refill, ammonition is free and repairs are really cheap.

Edited by MasterBurte
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Limited Ammunition, tedious? Maybe so, but it also makes you think about the battle you engaged in, at what point in the 90 minutes of battle do you decide that ammunition is so low that your next encounter will see you run out? Where do I position my ship to do the maximum amount of damage to my opponent with my limited stocks of ammunition?  If I am running low, how low is he on ammunition?  It leads to all manner of tactical decisions, dictates directed fire in fleet actions and can be the deciding factor in whether or not you win that port battle too. It changes the game from  being point and shoot until they sink to a game where players are forced to think tactically about how to sink their opponent's  ships, to work as a team, above all to be a skilled Captain or fleet commander. Whether you win or lose,   you gain those skills, you learn from the errors and the successes in battle, That I think is the real challenge of Naval Action, every battle would be a fresh experience rather than just another exchange of shot until someone sinks, even if you do make a mistake and expend too much ammunition you can always run or board your opponent, each option requires a different set of skills, it is how and when those skills are employed that makes each battle unique. 

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1 minute ago, MasterBurte said:

@Sir Lancelot Holland Boarding can get really neccesary if you run out of ammunition and the opponent if full stocked. You could even (if boarded succesfull) transfer ammunition to your ship.

Yes indeed, I think that was pretty much the case with several battles. one has to wonder what the ammunition stats were after the USs Constitution and HMS Seraphis finished fighting!

 

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5 minutes ago, rediii said:

 

My vote is on the "no"

It just creates another level of frustration.

 

You cant just board someone because you decide to. Special ammo like grape and chain could be limited but not ball.

Of all forms of warfare naval warfare demands patience, Captains who allow frustration to dictate their actions tend to make more mistakes than a more patient opponent. I do however understand what you are saying, limiting Chain and grape I can agree with, not limiting ball I am not so certain about but I do see the logic. Boarding is something that should be considered, if you have a numerical advantage then the odds may be better than attempting to break off the action, if not and you cannot run the outcome is inevitable, so what is left to lose?

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2 hours ago, admin said:

limited ammo is a good idea for first couple of trips. After 1000 battles it will get tedious to constantly refill ammo.

This was adressed so many times already and Sir Texas Sir said it again. Make chain and grape limited like double and charged shot and refill them after the battle. Of course the amount should be higher then the current amount of double shot and double charge. Maybe something like 10 - 15 broadsides of chain and grape per side (open for discussion). using chain and grape the right way should matter. You have to make sure that you hit and not fire away one broadside after the other because, well who cares, I have an unlimited supply of chain.

In the process, limit repairs to one :D

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Let's see.

One ship with limited ammo.

Two ships with twice the limited ammo.

Yep, a limited ammo arms race and sweeping squadrons :) makes up for the limits. Poor fellow at the short end of the stick will take it as it would unlimited. Not that different from what we have at the moment with unlimited. It is a arms race of amount of ships.

Suggestion has grounds but is not sterile, for PvP. Must be strung up connected to a feasible RoE or it is simply a faux-feature.

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@Hethwill If you are the one that often engages into battles with multiple enemys that outnumber you, than you are not neccesary on the short end of the stick. Just take more ammunition with you. You could think, well everyone would take as much ammo as possible. I won't believe that. First ammo cost money and loosing a ship with enormous amount of ammo cost more. Second more ammo needs to have a drawback. A major drawback would be the heavier load, what makes the ship slower and less maneuverable. On the other side higher ammounts of ammo increases the chance of fire and ammo explosion (an ammo explosion would in most cases equal a total loss of the ship). These things can easily implemented.

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Hence why I say that is not sterile. I really like your approach, especially the consideration of mass ( and volume in a far future, maybe! ) but the way the OW reacts to all those "battle focused changes" must change as well, especially the RoE :)

Not disagreeing, just looking back to experience. It is always a race and squadrons will make up for each ship strengths and weaknesses, as proper and less speed means little in OW as we can spacetime warp into battles and then put the ammunition and charges weight to full work.

Money is not a issue :) and when we tested it to be an issue it was met with fierce resistance ( but imo the synergy was better ).

 

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They had limited amounts of ammo in pirates of the burning seas. The system was exploited constantly. People would tag get shot abit, run, heal and retag to get folks to blow their load and only fight when the target ran out out of cannon balls. By the time I quit playing developers made ammo weigh next to nothing to stop the endless tagging and retagging. Limit special ammo like chain, but round shot should remain unlimited to prevent exploits and griefing.

Edited by Malachy
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4 hours ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

Limited Ammunition, tedious?

Limited per battle maybe
but based on historical data ships usually carried up to 100 shots per gun which is more (more) than enough 

tedious i meant in between battles. Sailing times are not short and its going to be very frustrating to come back to port again and again to refill ammo. (now we have this with repairs though.. and i am not yet sure if it is fun.. Its tactical but not sure if really really fun)

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1 minute ago, admin said:

.... and i am not yet sure if it is fun.. Its tactical but not sure if really really fun)

picking perks is no fun either because we are limited;-) Some things have to stay unwanted

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2 minutes ago, admin said:

Limited per battle maybe
but based on historical data ships usually carried up to 100 shots per gun which is more (more) than enough 

tedious i meant in between battles. Sailing times are not short and its going to be very frustrating to come back to port again and again to refill ammo. (now we have this with repairs though.. and i am not yet sure if it is fun.. Its tactical but not sure if really really fun)

What if we limit it like double shot/charge and ammunition refresh after every battle by it's own. Like limit chain and grape shot to 10 broadsides for example, normal round shot should stay unlimited.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Limited per battle maybe
but based on historical data ships usually carried up to 100 shots per gun which is more (more) than enough 

tedious i meant in between battles. Sailing times are not short and its going to be very frustrating to come back to port again and again to refill ammo. (now we have this with repairs though.. and i am not yet sure if it is fun.. Its tactical but not sure if really really fun)

Thank you for clarifying that, now it makes a bit more sense to me.

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7 hours ago, rediii said:

You cant just pull someone into boarding when you run out of ammo. You need to be considerably faster than your enemy to press him into the wind or you need him to make a big mistake.

I agree you can't, but you will either end up sunk or boarded either way once the options run out was the real point, the final options would always be fight to the end however you can, or strike your colours.  

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I don't see where the fun is lost when i have to plan the ships load ahead. As some comments tell us, most ships had plenty of ammunition aboard. In most cases there would be no need to rearm in a battle. And if the battle prolongs that long (hours) that you need to reload your ship is probably in a bad shape at this point. It's nothing that is 100% nessecary for this game, but it adds to the immersion. I can't say it often enough. If a game just wants to meet current gamplay standards it's ok, but nothing more. To be a great game, there is more than just meeting the standards.

For those of you that are to lazy to rearm your ship, we can get an option to auto rearm, recrew and repair at every harbour visit. Can't be that difficult. I think that unlimited whatsoever is unrealistic and hurts the ingame economy.

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