[suggestion] Ship refitting, modules and knowledge

[Hethwill]

While it is great to have drops and loot and all of the kinky rewards for doing something...anything... it is no secret that the overwhelming stacking leads to odd problems and odd solutions, such as creating abstract envelope limitations like in the speed.

So my suggestion comes in the face of all types of stacking. Speed is one but there's more and to absurd results. It feels like the old colour equipment cards twice worsened...

While we all don't like to have our "toys" messed up with we might try to understand that the game "isn't us" but "all of us".

So

- permanent refits > keep 3 slots but have them type specific - 1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure

- knowledge - 5 slots max by type -  1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure and 2 non-specific ( control, prepared, etc )

- max %% bonus in any characteristic for any unique "epic gear" piece  = 0.02 or 2%

 

 

[z4ys]

43 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

...

I would love to see no mods at all. I mean why we got books? Because the value of the ship was defined by its mods back in that time. What we have now? Right the same again.

Edited November 20, 2017 by z4ys

[victor]

2 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

While it is great to have drops and loot and all of the kinky rewards for doing something...anything... it is no secret that the overwhelming stacking leads to odd problems and odd solutions, such as creating abstract envelope limitations like in the speed.

So my suggestion comes in the face of all types of stacking. Speed is one but there's more and to absurd results. It feels like the old colour equipment cards twice worsened...

While we all don't like to have our "toys" messed up with we might try to understand that the game "isn't us" but "all of us".

So

- permanent refits > keep 3 slots but have them type specific - 1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure

- knowledge - 5 slots max by type -  1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure and 2 non-specific ( control, prepared, etc )

- max %% bonus in any characteristic for any unique "epic gear" piece  = 0.02 or 2%

 

 

TBH reducing the stacking will not eliminate the meta problem: it will simply shift it to different builds.

And if you say "no mods", then the meta will be skillbooks

"no skillbooks" then the meta will be on woods

"no woods", then the meta will be different ships

And so on

The only really "meta free" game is the one in which we all are obliged to combat in the very same ship with the same cannons (but that's a game that of course no one will play).

 

[Hethwill]

I agree, there's no way of meta-game and that's fine. It is true that players like the loot and all that  and they can refit any basic ship into a more "personalized" item by usage of knowledge and refits. I agree on that.

I made the suggestion though, in regards of the overstacking that is possible.

As opposed to limit speed to 15.5, simply make it that the player can still go 17, but he must forfeit other options when choosing the sails & masts / hull & structure / knowledge slots.

 

[Yngvarr]

Yea, overstacking of upgrades is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Cause now we have 4th rates that can outrun 5-6th rates, while pummeling 2nd rates into submisison.

 

Also, i miss my exceptional ships of old..

Ship crafting has been "meh" ever since

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

- permanent refits > keep 3 slots but have them type specific - 1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure

- knowledge - 5 slots max by type -  1 for sails or masts , 1 for guns or crew, 1 for hull or structure and 2 non-specific ( control, prepared, etc )

This is 100% the best possible solution for current speed meta.

The reason we have 15.5knt Wasas roaming is because anyone can stack mainsail bonus mods that can increase your downwind speed by 7%. Stacking them you can get any 13knt ship to speed cap with ease.

This blurs the line between light, fast ships and heavy ships. The meta becomes find the biggest ship that can reach 13knts and boost it to 15 instead of sailing ships that have sacrifice for their speed, being small and easy to sink.

:

For this to work the first 3 knowledge slots for every ship would need to be unlocked from the start. The non-specific mods should be your battle mods, special abilities that you can perform in battle that fill a certain role. 

Like a mod that lets you use your repairs on allies in battle, making a carpenters ship.

Control ship which as long as it stays within 500 meters of the enemy they cant leave.

Prepared ship, starts with guns loaded BUT, higher levels or classes of ships can make it so a number of your allies when joining are also prepared, making it a support upgrade.

Double shot in limited amounts, Double charge in limited amounts, Chain in limited amounts (to avoid overuse) etc.

Flagship, only 1 per battle can be active, gives bonuses to every single ally in battle. Different types of flagship like Spanish gives 0.15 crew resistance,  5 prep bonus and 10% reload reduction, French flagship which grants 3% speed boost, 7% mast thickness, and the ability to surrender the entire fleet at once. Kidding, but you get the point.

There's unlimited possibilities on what personal, and support roles can be added. Each ship will have its own unique functions and combination of functions which set them apart. Not only will this fix the speed meta, it'll improve the upgrades system exponentially, and overall the game. +1

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[jodgi]

I fully support this movement!

Our bodies love sugar and fat, we can feel a craving and our brain is rewarding us with a dopamine hit when we eat it making it hard to stop.

Should we eat so much of it even if we like the taste and how it makes us feel?

*They* did an experiment with rats. When rats were given sugar or fat exclusively they stopped eating at *some* point. When rats were given fat and suger simultaneously, they ate until they were dead.

Naval Action upgrades are what fat and sugar are to us; Enjoy in minimal quantities or parts of your body might get broken.

[Vernon Merrill]

Just once in this "Age of Sail" game, I'd like to have my position in the OW and the wind conditions actually determine whether I can engage or not....  Not some 16-knot, speed-capped monster that ignores some basic laws of physics....  Whats the point of a sailing profile if its boosted 25% in all points of sail?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Vernon Merrill

[z4ys]

15 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

... monster that ignores some basic laws of physics....  Whats the point of a sailing profile if its boosted 25% in all points of sail?

Sorry had to post that

[George Washington]

Why not just have penalty? and keep people entertained with mod varieties. 

Stacking penalty on same stats:

1st mod = 100% effect

2nd mod = 50% effect

3rd mod = 15% effect

4th mod = 0 effect 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by George Washington

[Jean Ribault]

1 minute ago, George Washington said:

Why not just have penalty? and keep people entertained with mod varieties. 

Stacking penalty:

1st mod = 100% effect

2nd mod = 50% effect

3rd mod = 15% effect

4th mod = 0 effect 

 

Personally I like this form better:

Stacking penalty:

1st mod = 100% effect

2nd mod = 50% effect Not Allowed

3rd mod = 15% effect Not Allowed

4th mod = 0 effect  Not Allowed

[George Washington]

3 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

 

Personally I like this form better:

Stacking penalty:

1st mod = 100% effect

2nd mod = 50% effect Not Allowed

3rd mod = 15% effect Not Allowed

4th mod = 0 effect  Not Allowed

but you are limiting build varieties and making this game too simple. I should be able to go full speed and use 3 mods with penalties knowing I just wasted 50% effect on 2nd mod and 85% on 3rd mod.  I am paper thin with speed and useless in close combat. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by George Washington

[Jean Ribault]

1 minute ago, George Washington said:

but you are limiting build varieties and making this game too simple

No way.  There are more than enough build varieties available IMO.  This requires better player planning and disallows ridiculous counter-balancing game effects.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Jean Ribault

[George Washington]

1 minute ago, Jean Ribault said:

No way.  There are more than enough build varieties.  This requires better player planning and disallows ridiculous counter-balancing game effects.

I do not think many will be happy.

[Liq]

8 minutes ago, George Washington said:

I should be able to go full speed

No

 

9 minutes ago, George Washington said:

I am paper thin with speed and useless in close combat

This is what many dont get. Paper ships are well aware of the fact that they cannot fight a proper battle, so they use their insane speed to run from anything close to equal and go pick single targets.. 

We need to promote less ganking more real fighting

On a siddnote, what if all ships spawned by ship notes for marks are teak teal by default? And add the BPs so you could get a fir one if you really wanted to but then its not getting spammed as much as now.

[George Washington]

6 minutes ago, Liq said:

No

 

This is what many dont get. Paper ships are well aware of the fact that they cannot fight a proper battle, so they use their insane speed to run from anything close to equal and go pick single targets.. 

We need to promote less ganking more real fighting

On a siddnote, what if all ships spawned by ship notes for marks are teak teal by default? And add the BPs so you could get a fir one if you really wanted to but then its not getting spammed as much as now.

Admin mentioned this many times, you can't force players to stay and fight. History proves that Captains who did not want to fight even dumped guns and fresh water to gain speed. Oh wait can we get those in game as well? 

Also, read what Devs posted in ship re balance. It will get even worse now. Nerfing mods won't help because every ship will have different sail profiles. 

If he is great upwind and you are not , mod quantity won't help. 

It sounds like you will need to retire from NA and go play Legends if you want battles. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by George Washington

[Jean Ribault]

3 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Admin mentioned this many times, you can't force players to stay and fight. History proves that Captains who did not want to fight even dumped guns and fresh water to gain speed. Oh wait can we get those in game as well? 

Also, read what Devs posted in ship re balance. It will get even worse now. Nerfing mods won't help because every ship will have different sail profiles. 

But then your solution is to continue to allow stacking mods so we get back to the same unbalanced situation?  Then I would have to question why would we want to bother with this final rebalance in the first place?  With your solution I think you may wind up defeating the whole purpose of unique ship characteristics that provide the benefit of sailing it.

[George Washington]

11 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

But then your solution is to continue to allow stacking mods so we get back to the same unbalanced situation?  Then I would have to question why would we want to bother with this final rebalance in the first place?  With your solution I think you may wind up defeating the whole purpose of unique ship characteristics that provide the benefit of sailing it.

Why is that? Guy can waste 3 mods and get slightly faster ship, while I can tank and boost reload and penetration and play with him at range with his paper ship. They can grief , but they will never be able to sink you. Also, with all these maneuverability buffs it's great now. 

I do agree that right now without penalty stacking mods are OP, but it also fun. ex. my Constitution turns like a frigate now with the right mods. I can 3 broadside a ship without a problem to his 1. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by George Washington

[Hethwill]

Interesting points of view, but one notice, it is not a one on one game nor a one on one comparison. It is not only about OW conflict nor about PvE combat or PB specific. It is ALL.

I'd say the effects are way more visible, exponentially, when flag squadron versus flag squadron.

A one on one is indeed just the exception that proves the rule.

[TheHaney]

Personally to me the most interesting way to fix the speed meta problem (and several others) is to get rid of in-battle repairs and make it so battle instances are joinable for the entire duration of the battle.

[George Washington]

1 minute ago, TheHaney said:

Personally to me the most interesting way to fix the speed meta problem (and several others) is to get rid of in-battle repairs and make it so battle instances are joinable for the entire duration of the battle.

You are asking to make game even more hardcore, reps are good as they are and just need fine tune. 

[TheHaney]

11 minutes ago, George Washington said:

You are asking to make game even more hardcore, reps are good as they are and just need fine tune. 

That doesn't really strike me as more hardcore.

 

The ability to repair in combat as much as one wants leads to massively stretched-out PvP skirmishes. The few I've been in so far have dragged on for ages. One of the reasons gankers/hunters are able to do this because after a period of time, they are "safe" in their instance and can retreat-repair-attack-repeat at their leisure.

If you keep battle instances open until the end of said battle, reinforcements can arrive at any time. The attacker is running on a clock, and doesn't have time to dick around. Hunting in enemy territory is suddenly much more risky. Larger battles will endure as reinforcements arrive from all corners of the Caribbean.

If you get rid of repairs or limit them to some degree, smaller battles will be faster, which helps casual players looking for 1v1 fights. Larger battles will generally maintain reasonable numbers because despite the inflow of reinforcements, ships will also be dropping out as their health gets low.

 

All in all, those two changes to me would:

- Assist the speed meta issue

- Drastically speed up 1v1 battles

- Make reinforcing battles, tagging fleets and other cheesy OW tactics less weird.

- Give some actual weight to enemy territory when your battle can be entered at any time.

Edited November 20, 2017 by TheHaney

[Vernon Merrill]

Lets be completely honest here....  In 99% of the OW "battles", the fir/fir ship's ONLY job is to shhot enough sails for the teak/teak ships to get close enough to finish the job....

[Jean Ribault]

12 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Lets be completely honest here....  In 99% of the OW "battles", the fir/fir ship's ONLY job is to shhot enough sails for the teak/teak ships to get close enough to finish the job....

Sounds like that kind of backs The Red Duke's point above.

[Aster]

I would like to see mods with diminishing effects like stated above. This would still let you do the fir fir speed build but I think you would see a lot more midrange builds instead of the full tank or full speed meta.

Also maybe if you tag an enemy in their waters their circle stays open longer?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Aster