Eliminate small ship griefing

[Malachy]

3 hours ago, Lz3 said:

That is a malformed point. Whatever evidence I show you, you are going to always say that it is a bad 4th rate player. You've proven my point above with Jef's story about Vile where you claim that he must have had an "off-day". The thing is; until you understand that snows can indeed sink a capable player this thread is pointless to further continue. 

 

Above you say that the main problem is small ships doing this, but the actual problem is people keeping you in battle for a long time. Tackling an issue with gameplay by taking out more gameplay that is otherwise not an issue is always a horrible idea. It generally leads players to quit, and if done repeatedly the game has a chance of dying. Frigates can do this as well. They are harder to hit, but you with 40% sails will not be able to avert a Suprise sterncamping you. Reversing one of your big claims here; What if the frigate player was simply bad?

 

Now to your definition of griefing. The "intentional harassment of another player by two players who cannot force a conclusion to the battle". This is a fair statement on your side, but we have now shown that 6th rates and/or frigates are definitely capable of sinking an enemy vessel so this claim is thereby invalid. It's just now a case of are you willing to accept that this happens to good 4th rate players as well..

No you haven't shown that. One case out of hundreds of bad examples is not a statistic. It's an aberration. Even great snow captains like srupl who is probably better in it than anyone else will say that a snow shouldn't be able to take a 4th if the 4th is well handled. In fact he told me this in discord a week or two ago @Peter Goldman

The facts of the matter stand, it's way too easy to grief someone in a sixth rate compared to any other class of ship. All of the other ships have drawbacks against this sort of behavior, namely they don't sail upwind at motor boat speeds and they have a profile that is easy to aim at., the 6th rate inherently encourages this sort of behavior and either needs changed to bring it in line with other ships or needs its role modified to prevent this behavior. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Lz3 said:

Here's a picture of HMS Victory to prove my point. If you, in any type of vessel, ram the vessel in the furthest forward point of the bow (where it is very thin, almost like one long board) it is very easy to turn the enemy vessel. if you do it incorrectly and your side hits that part you are going to be pushed along. If you let too much of 6th rates bow hit the enemies bow your bowsprit will break off. But if you, with the left side of your bow in this case, hit the victory right there where the two broadsides come together into a figurehead then you can turn whatever ship you want. Example: Tugboat. 

The Victory is actually a more difficult ship to turn because as you see in the picture, its front is still quite round. Other 5th-1st rates are suprisingly easy to turn. I suggest you go into a battle with a friend, shoot his sails down to 50%, and then attempt to turn him this way. You will find, if you don't make mistakes, it works very well.

I've had dozens of snows try it over the months. Not one has turned my Connie that way. I've probably more hours logged in a Connie than you have in game. I know how to turn a ship, and a snow can't turn a 4th that way by itself unless the 4th allows the maneuver. I think you need to fight some better captains. 

[Malachy]

9 hours ago, Eyesore said:

So the problem lies with the upgrades? And sailingprofiles?

The problem probably lies with the entire class of ship and ridiculous turn rates topped by incredible base speed. Note you don't see folks doing this in pickles which have a more moderate speed.

an adjustment to how modules work could possibly partially mitigate the problem. Maybe after a ships speed hits the hard cap, modules no longer can be applied? This would prevent folks stacking them to get artificial profile enhancement. 

Another way to solve the problem would be to implement a timer in battle. If you are outside 750 meters for more than 7 minutes, the target can escape, regardless of tag.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

By the way, how can 1 Snow tag a Constitution ? Or was the snow tagged ?!...

 

 

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

probably clicked "attack" after selecting the consti.

 

BR tagformula is a big ? to everyone since its curved. Ite not the 1:5 thing many think it is. Or maybe it is in a 1v1 case? I dont know

You cant tag a coni or Wasa or endy while sailing a prince. You need at least an other 50BR ship in the circle.

Edited November 15, 2017 by z4ys

[GreasyMnky]

On 11/13/2017 at 7:48 AM, victor said:

you won a snow (or a prince, if you prefer) .

I would prefer the prince, ty.

42 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

By the way, how can 1 Snow tag a Constitution ? Or was the snow tagged ?!...

 

 

A single snow (50br) currently cannot tag a connie (250br), but 2 snows can tag a connie.

Edited November 15, 2017 by GreasyMnky

[Hethwill]

Thank you for the answers.

[Hodo]

12 hours ago, Malachy said:

It's mainly a problem with the small ships. Their absurdly small profile makes them extremely tough to hit at long ranges and the damage fall off basically makes what hits you get moot. Add in the fact that all pf them perform extremely well up wind and they have such high base speeds to begin with that their sailing profiles don't present them with many drawbacks as many of them can stack speed so that even if they lose some sailing at a bad point, they still are faster than s bigger ship at its best point. Then the rewards are paltry for killing them, so where does a large ship captain benefit from the encounter? There is no pleasure to be had from the skirmish, no monetary or mark reward even if you manage to sink one, the only thing the large ship captain gets from the encounter is Ann hour and a half of frustration and boredom.

a frigate attempting the same thing is much more likely to get killed or be forced to exit the encounter. 

I fought some renomees the other day. That is arguably one of the fastest ships in game, and one of the smallest frigates. There was no issue with fighting the battle to a conclusion or forcing a conclusion one way or another. One sank, the other ran, battle lasted half hour tops and was fun for both sides. 

Ok... the Snow is HUGE when it comes to 6th rates... that thing is a billboard with sails.   If you cant hit a Snow then you cant shoot.

If you kill the 6th rate vs any rate bigger you kill the true pirates in this game.   The ones who sail 6th rates to hunt merchant ships, LGVs, Indiamen and the like.  

And ultimately it wont solve your problem.. the people who are "griefing" you will just change ships.  From Snows to the Cerberus.   Which has a better sailing profile, and is just as cheap,  or they will run Suprises(again).  

Both of which can out turn your precious 4th rate, and stay firmly on its stern if you cant sail.  

 

[Hodo]

11 hours ago, Malachy said:

Actually no, most frigates and all 4th and larger cap out at the cap  15.5 or abit lower. The 6th rates And a couple 5th can stack to well over 17 so that it basically eliminates their weak points of sail. 

Let me see if I am getting this right...

Fir-Fir Snow +10% + 2% copper + 3% Navy Hull + 2% Gazelle.   So total 17% so 1.17*12.95=15.15knt empty.

Fir-Fir Constitution +10% +2 copper + 3 Navy Hull + 2 Gazelle.  Same 17%, total 14.39knts empty.

So there is an .8knt speed difference without guns.   With guns maybe a knot and a half.   2 knots max with repairs.  

The Constitution even made of fir can tank any shots from the 6lb longs or mediums on a Snow, and god help that Snow if it ends up in the Constitutions broadside.   One load of ball to the masts, and it will lose them, or one load of chain and it is in rigging shock long enough for the Constitution to bring its other guns to bear and put 504pds of iron ball into its hull. 

If that Constitution has all medium guns, no longs, it will hit for over 1400 damage in a single broadside, the Snow only has 1700 armor on one side if it was made of something harder than fir.   But with fir it has WAY less than that. It would have about 1530 armor on the side.  So one broadside with penetration would take the armor down to nearly zero and probably 1/3 of the structure with it.  And seeing the Constitutions guns ALL of them can penetrate the side armor of the Snow out to 1000m!!!!!   The Snow has to be within 750m to even penetrate the stern armor of the Constitution with its bow chasers.   And the 6lb guns have to be with in 800m. 

Even with the Constitution made out of Fir its armor on the sides would bounce shots out to 500m from a 6lb long gun, or 400m on a 6lb medium. 

They have no chance of cutting through the mast until they get with in 250m.   And at that distance the stern chasers on the Constitution can cut through the bow and stern of the Snow, let alone its masts.

 

[jodgi]

42 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Let me see if I am getting this right...

So, you're saying there is a chance?

<hides>

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Ok... the Snow is HUGE when it comes to 6th rates... that thing is a billboard with sails.   If you cant hit a Snow then you cant shoot.

If you kill the 6th rate vs any rate bigger you kill the true pirates in this game.   The ones who sail 6th rates to hunt merchant ships, LGVs, Indiamen and the like.  

And ultimately it wont solve your problem.. the people who are "griefing" you will just change ships.  From Snows to the Cerberus.   Which has a better sailing profile, and is just as cheap,  or they will run Suprises(again).  

Both of which can out turn your precious 4th rate, and stay firmly on its stern if you cant sail.  

 

Compared to any 5th rate the snow is tiny. The prince is even worse. And no one can hit one out at 750 plus consistently and like I said then damage fall off makes that irrelevant. People still use renomee and surprises and Cerberus. While they may be able to escape upwind, hanging out there and griefing folks will get them killed right smartly. Not so with a 6th rate.

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Let me see if I am getting this right...

Fir-Fir Snow +10% + 2% copper + 3% Navy Hull + 2% Gazelle.   So total 17% so 1.17*12.95=15.15knt empty.

Fir-Fir Constitution +10% +2 copper + 3 Navy Hull + 2 Gazelle.  Same 17%, total 14.39knts empty.

So there is an .8knt speed difference without guns.   With guns maybe a knot and a half.   2 knots max with repairs.  

The Constitution even made of fir can tank any shots from the 6lb longs or mediums on a Snow, and god help that Snow if it ends up in the Constitutions broadside.   One load of ball to the masts, and it will lose them, or one load of chain and it is in rigging shock long enough for the Constitution to bring its other guns to bear and put 504pds of iron ball into its hull. 

If that Constitution has all medium guns, no longs, it will hit for over 1400 damage in a single broadside, the Snow only has 1700 armor on one side if it was made of something harder than fir.   But with fir it has WAY less than that. It would have about 1530 armor on the side.  So one broadside with penetration would take the armor down to nearly zero and probably 1/3 of the structure with it.  And seeing the Constitutions guns ALL of them can penetrate the side armor of the Snow out to 1000m!!!!!   The Snow has to be within 750m to even penetrate the stern armor of the Constitution with its bow chasers.   And the 6lb guns have to be with in 800m. 

Even with the Constitution made out of Fir its armor on the sides would bounce shots out to 500m from a 6lb long gun, or 400m on a 6lb medium. 

They have no chance of cutting through the mast until they get with in 250m.   And at that distance the stern chasers on the Constitution can cut through the bow and stern of the Snow, let alone its masts.

 

You totally left out all of the General slot speed items. Between speed and sail force you can gain another two knots there on the snow. But the Connie loses about a knot and a half once you put guns on snow loses about 4 tenths of a knot. And they usually are targeting your sails out that far, which on a 4th you can hit easily as a 4th is about 500 pixels at that range.  That same distance from the connies perspective a snow is about 60 to 70 pixels including its sails. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Maybe, just maybe, if you really have to run away, working the enemy ship worst and not your best might be a solution ?

 

[Hodo]

Just now, Malachy said:

Compared to any 5th rate the snow is tiny. The prince is even worse. And no one can hit one out at 750 plus consistently and like I said then damage fall off makes that irrelevant. People still use renomee and surprises and Cerberus. While they may be able to escape upwind, hanging out there and griefing folks will get them killed right smartly. Not so with a 6th rate.

LOL you would HATE my Lynx with 6lb longs.  I can sit at 800-900m and peck at your sails with ball.  

If you have your ship setup right you can easily hit a Snow, Brig, or Mercury at 750m with ball.  It takes practice but it can easily be done.    I practice on NPC Lynx and Cutters,  I will get down wind about 500-700m and practice sniping at their hull.   After weeks of practice I can put 18lb ball shots one at a time into the hull of a Lynx at 700m about 75% of the time with medium guns. 

But if you just mash the [ - ] buttons or the left mouse button and fire rolling broadsides everytime you will never be accurate. 

 

[Hodo]

4 minutes ago, Malachy said:

You totally left out all of the General slot speed items. Between speed and sail force you can gain another two knots there on the snow. But the Connie loses about a knot and a half once you put guns on snow loses about 4 tenths of a knot. And they usually are targeting your sails out that far, which on a 4th you can hit easily as a 4th is about 500 pixels at that range.  That same distance from the connies perspective a snow is about 60 to 70 pixels including its sails. 

I left those out intentionally, because if you include those nothing really changes.  If you add optimized ballast and speed trim, you can factor them having them too.   Thus they cancel each out.  But studding sails or any sail force increase has a negative to the other sail force.  So studding increases your square sails, but decreases your jibs/stays, which is your close hauled advantage.   You lose 3-5% on those and you are no better than that Constitution.   And still not as fast at 150 as the Constitution.  

 

[Malachy]

30 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I left those out intentionally, because if you include those nothing really changes.  If you add optimized ballast and speed trim, you can factor them having them too.   Thus they cancel each out.  But studding sails or any sail force increase has a negative to the other sail force.  So studding increases your square sails, but decreases your jibs/stays, which is your close hauled advantage.   You lose 3-5% on those and you are no better than that Constitution.   And still not as fast at 150 as the Constitution.  

 

But on an armed Connie best you can get is around 15 knots flat. An armed snow is around 17. Assuming both are maxed. The heavier guns does not allow the Connie to exceed the cap, however the snow can which basically takes his poor downwind point and allows him to hit the speed cap or nearly hit it. Try it, I have

The snow can get well over 16 knots without sail force and is as fast or faster than the Connie at 135. It also has a massive acceleration advantage over the Connie too fyi. Trust me, there is no point a 4th rate can outrun a speed fit snow at. If there was, we might not be having this exact conversation. A Connie will also never catch a snow upwind, that there is a ludicrous suggestion, even if a snow ran sail force, its still going to be faster upwind. Connie never had done good at close haul or anything over 90.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Hodo]

3 minutes ago, Malachy said:

But on an armed Connie best you can get is around 15 knots flat. An armed snow is around 17. Assuming both are maxed. The heavier guns does not allow the Connie to exceed the cap, however the snow can which basically takes his poor downwind point and allows him to hit the speed cap or nearly hit it. Try it, I have

Fact is, if you let your opponent dictate the distance of the tag, then you are giving them the advantage right from the start.  If you are aware of your situation and move to a position of advantage before the timer hits zero, you will be in a position to end the fight quickly and cleanly.  

Trust me I have out sailed people who would have sank me if I had not known the strengths of my ship and the weaknesses of theres.   I made sure that I had the weather gauge at the start of the fight so I could dictate the pace of the fight or how I would engage or disengage. 

If you let the Snow get the advantage during the tag that is a failure on your part.  Always have the advantage, never give it up work to maintain it.   Every ship has a weakness, sometimes it is hard to overcome but EVERY ship has one.   And the Snow has several. 

[Malachy]

5 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Fact is, if you let your opponent dictate the distance of the tag, then you are giving them the advantage right from the start.  If you are aware of your situation and move to a position of advantage before the timer hits zero, you will be in a position to end the fight quickly and cleanly.  

Trust me I have out sailed people who would have sank me if I had not known the strengths of my ship and the weaknesses of theres.   I made sure that I had the weather gauge at the start of the fight so I could dictate the pace of the fight or how I would engage or disengage. 

If you let the Snow get the advantage during the tag that is a failure on your part.  Always have the advantage, never give it up work to maintain it.   Every ship has a weakness, sometimes it is hard to overcome but EVERY ship has one.   And the Snow has several. 

Tag doesn't matter. I counter tag everything. I've tagged snows at max range, they are inside 250 before my sails are fully up. I fought many many battles with 6th rates before I came here and posted this topic. This was not something I pulled out of a hat on a whim. 

Yes, all ships have weaknesses, however sailing profile is irrelevant when you can exceed the cap due to a high base speed and barely any gun weight penalties. I've got probably the fastest Connie on the server FYI

this is something that has needed addressed for a long time. There are many factors which contribute to the problem. It's one of those things the developers are going to have to address in the ship rebalance. But if they are unaware of it, it never gets addressed. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[z4ys]

On 13.11.2017 at 4:52 PM, PG Monkey said:

Thats the Buc i used vs a fir frame and teak plank snow with gazelle, strong sails and additional pump like we used her for captureing the buc. Furthermoe the last time I used a SOL was during patch 9.x. So i would say about me that I am inexperienced regarding the handling of a SOLs.

After i tried it out by myself i have to say my statement is more than valid:

On 13.11.2017 at 5:04 PM, z4ys said:

Actually pavel and wappen. I am not scared of wasas because they are 3 click ships for marks and everyone can redeem them. Conclusion 95% of people dont know how to sail them.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by z4ys

[Hodo]

17 hours ago, z4ys said:

Thats the Buc i used vs a fir frame and teak plank snow with gazelle, strong sailsand additional pump.

After i tried it out by myself i have to say may statement is more than valid:

 

That video is perfect.  Thank you sir.

[Sang Noir]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:08 AM, Malachy said:

First of all I have never said snows were overpowered. Ever. This thread is about folks using 6th rates to grief large ships.

No, it wasn't you, it was redi who has been sidelining this thread.

It isn't really my intention to argue for griefing, but against any regulations that would separate the realm of the 7-6th from the 5th rates and up. Basically you're saying that your playtime is more worth than anybody's else and that gives me the itch.

I have been ganked so often, especially as a newbie, still I don't raise a campaign against it or any of the ship types involved.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Jean de la Rochelle

[Sang Noir]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:59 PM, Intrepido said:

The historical argument is perfectly fine to avoid weird things happening in a combat. To balance it.

Sure, I love history. Probably lots of us are here exactly because of it. 

But you could always make it more realistic and more historic which will only lead you to reenact history instead of playing a game with it's what-if premise. 

[Sang Noir]

17 hours ago, z4ys said:

Bow rakes can be devastating against small ships.

Oh so true. That crushing feeling in a 6th rate and you have a large ship wiping all your men and cannons of your deck with one broadside. 🙂

[Rikard Frederiksen]

1 hour ago, Jean de la Rochelle said:

It isn't really my intention to argue for griefing, but against any regulations that would separate the realm of the 7-6th from the 5th rates and up. Basically you're saying that your playtime is more worth than anybody's else and that gives me the itch.

I have been ganked so often, especially as a newbie, still I don't raise a campaign against it or any of the ship types involved.

I must agree. As a 6th Rate user I know the joy and pain of being in such a small ship. The tactics our clan have developed, as we play in our hunting ships, have allowed us to overcome larger ships, quite often with barely any scratches. Most of the time when we've taken bigger ships it has been because the Captains try and run from us.* This led us to be so lax that when we found a captain who would fight. On that occasion Caroline Vodka, who was in either a 4th or 5th Rate (I can't remember which - long time ago), gave us such a bloody nose that we limped off in one direction and bailing water for our lives, whilst Caroline crawled away in the other.

The big problem is that Captains, I feel, get a little too comfortable in the size of their ships, the number of crew, and heavy poundage of guns. Against capable captains in smaller ships, who know their vessels, a larger ship on its own can fail and that breeds frustration because how could such a large ship lose to smaller ships? I would blame the linear progression of other games whereby being bigger/more powerful = destroying anything weaker.

One thing I feel that would help is to have slower turning capabilities for all ships, and acceleration/deceleration & momentum for turning, so that we can't perform doughnuts in smaller ships or switch direction with ease. Slightly slower yard turning times might help as well.

As for the original post, I can see the frustration there, that you were hounded for the entire battle by smaller ships that didn't close to disable and sink/board your ship. However, this is just the course of a battle, and sometimes they take 20 minutes, other times an hour & a half. If they choose not to close and disable/sink then that is their choice, and you just have to roll with it.

*Notably, we took one Surprise whilst two Trincomalees fled together away from us. Madness. They could have obliterated us but ran instead.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Rikard Frederiksen

[Jack Jones]

In real life the crew if a 6th rate would throw the captain overboard if he ordered them to attack a 4th rate plus.

The marines on a 4th rate  would slaughter the 6th rates crew as soon as it was in rake range.

Ships should not be able to tag two classes above themselves. It did not happen for a reason. 

Limit tagging to 1 class above own level and unlimited below.