Eliminate small ship griefing

[Malachy]

22 minutes ago, Hodo said:

The Ganj-i-Sawai was a 80gun Ship of the Line.. while it was hauling troops it was still a SHIP OF THE LINE.   It still had 80 guns on it, and still had more firepower than ANY of the 3 ships attacking it combined. 

And you did not specify the terms of the engagement.    There were only 3 ships attacking it, the largest of them was a 6th rate, the other two were 7th rates... 48 men with 8 guns, a Lynx for comparison.  

 

And it's guns weren't fully manned, if it even had them. Most of the time those were removed to make room for equipment and soldiers. It was not serving in its original capacity in any case so, irrelevant.

[legendleroy]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

My premise has never changed. I've thrown out multiple ideas to eliminate the griefing. The shit ship captains of course are going to raise hell because they've enjoyed griefing larger ships for a long time now. No one wants to have to adapt to new mechanics. Well the rest of us don't want to be griefed by little ships either, so balance must be struck somewhere. The developers are working on ship rebalance as we speak, maybe they will be able to get some ideas to fix this aspect of the problem here in this thread. For the most part all I see from the 6th rate captains here is "don't take away my ability to pester other folks and force them to remain in a pointless battle for an hour and a half". The same argument goes to 6th rates. If you want to tag a bigger ship, sail alongside a bigger ship to allow you to engage them. You should be able to solo in virtually any ship with a relative ability to be able to bring a fight to conclusion in some form. When a battle lasts an hour and a half and I'm sailing away in a virtually intact 4th rate after being pestered by two snows for the entire time which have zero chance of forcing the fight to conclusion, there is a problem. @admin @Ink 

but what about captains in snow that are able to sink/capture a 4th rate? do you want to take their fun away just because you get griefed. because its not a pointless battle if the 6th rate get the 4 th rate down

[Malachy]

50 minutes ago, legendleroy said:

but what about captains in snow that are able to sink/capture a 4th rate? do you want to take their fun away just because you get griefed. because its not a pointless battle if the 6th rate get the 4 th rate down

They capture or sink incompetent or new players. Any ship handler who has half a brain can easily keep from being boarded or sank by them. I usually go semi afk after setting course and just pop a repair once in awhile while I am being griefed. My connies never drop below 6 knots and I usually never even use more than 1 or 2 sail repairs in the entire hour and half griefing session.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Malachy

[Lz3]

The argument "but historically there never was a 6th rate capturing a ship of the line!" is so utterly stupid I regret to see some here type it. You do realize you are playing a game in front of your computer in a safe house with everything you need around you? Historically it never happened because the consequences were that you DIE, or lose everything, be captured, never see your loved ones again.You go into a battle in Naval Action with the condition that if you lose your ship, you DIE in real life. Of course people here take their snows out and attack bigger ships. Historically it probably could be done, but it was never done since no captain would be foolish enough to risk death if they did one wrong move.

What do you lose? Some virtual numbers (crew), a few pixels and stats (ship). Now compare that to what a captain lost in real life.

 

16 hours ago, Malachy said:

They capture or sink incompetent or new players. Any ship handler who has half a brain can easily keep from being boarded or sank by them. I usually go semi afk after setting course and just pop a repair once in awhile while I am being griefed. My connies never drop below 6 knots and I usually never even use more than 1 or 2 sail repairs in the entire hour and half griefing session.

Wrong, even if you have half a brain (or maybe even a full brain!) you could be sank by snows. Once your sails are down and the snow is behind you, like someone mentioned here before, you are dead no matter how good you are. If you are at 50% sails a snow can push you into the wind easily. The 6th rate becomes like a tugboat. 

I still don't believe your over 6 hour story so I will assume that either you got sunk or the snows sank you, or you both ran away after a short time. I'd think that ATLEAST in the 4th battle where you are being attacked by snows and you've been in battle for almost 90minutes you'd take a screenshot? 

 

 

 

Also, do you mind defining "griefing" without looking on google? I think you don't understand the word

Edited November 14, 2017 by Lz3

[jodgi]

23 hours ago, Powderhorn said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_brig_Mercury

 

In this case we can actually blame the russians!

[Sang Noir]

The historicity discussion is such an awful dead-end:

We are playing in a Carribean which is getting populated by Prussians, dominated by Swedes and Danes, sailed by US great lake ships and patrolled by Russian Mercuries. Obviously we have entered some sort of alternate universe of the Age Of Sail. And we entered a new sort of reality within the boundaries of Naval Action the game. 

It's a sandbox game and people are starting to figure out its possibilities. So what?

[PG Monkey]

1 minute ago, Jean de la Rochelle said:

The historicity discussion is such an awful dead-end:

We are playing in a Carribean which is getting populated by Prussians, dominated by Swedes and Danes, sailed by US great lake ships and patrolled by Russian Mercuries. Obviously we have entered some sort of alternate universe of the Age Of Sail. And we entered a new sort of reality within the boundaries of Naval Action the game. 

It's a sandbox game and people are starting to figure out its possibilities. So what?

Exactly..we are not replaying history..we are rewriting it!

[Guest]

It's a multiplayer game.

The odds of standing up against "small ship griefing" (if it's small ships it's griefing, if it's big ships it's ganking ) - multiply ten-fold if you're not on your own.

In a multiplayer game.

There's your solution.

[Sang Noir]

20 hours ago, PG Monkey said:

Captured by 3 6th rates

btw I just love it, well done. Shit ships are the Hip shit. 😉

[Hethwill]

Give me a simulator then, please !?

[Malachy]

3 hours ago, Lz3 said:

The argument "but historically there never was a 6th rate capturing a ship of the line!" is so utterly stupid I regret to see some here type it. You do realize you are playing a game in front of your computer in a safe house with everything you need around you? Historically it never happened because the consequences were that you DIE, or lose everything, be captured, never see your loved ones again.You go into a battle in Naval Action with the condition that if you lose your ship, you DIE in real life. Of course people here take their snows out and attack bigger ships. Historically it probably could be done, but it was never done since no captain would be foolish enough to risk death if they did one wrong move.

What do you lose? Some virtual numbers (crew), a few pixels and stats (ship). Now compare that to what a captain lost in real life.

 

Wrong, even if you have half a brain (or maybe even a full brain!) you could be sank by snows. Once your sails are down and the snow is behind you, like someone mentioned here before, you are dead no matter how good you are. If you are at 50% sails a snow can push you into the wind easily. The 6th rate becomes like a tugboat. 

I still don't believe your over 6 hour story so I will assume that either you got sunk or the snows sank you, or you both ran away after a short time. I'd think that ATLEAST in the 4th battle where you are being attacked by snows and you've been in battle for almost 90minutes you'd take a screenshot? 

 

 

 

Also, do you mind defining "griefing" without looking on google? I think you don't understand the word

Wrong, the snow can't turn a 4th rate, two of them can't even with a pit maneuver, unless the 4th rate turns with them. They couldn't do it at 40 percent sails. All the 4th rate captain has to do is turn rudder away from the direction the snows want to turn him and keep the wind at his back. One even tried to get in front and drop sails, I ran over him. There's a bit more to it than that but I'm not here to teach the finer points of dealing with shit ships. As I said, you've been fighting incompetents who don't know how to handle their ships. 

Griefing is the intentional harrassment of another player. In this case by two ships who don't have the capability to force a conclusion to the battle so they keep you tagged the full time. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Malachy

[Jef]

22 hours ago, Malachy said:

They capture or sink incompetent or new players. Any ship handler who has half a brain can easily keep from being boarded or sank by them. I usually go semi afk after setting course and just pop a repair once in awhile while I am being griefed. My connies never drop below 6 knots and I usually never even use more than 1 or 2 sail repairs in the entire hour and half griefing session.

But Malachy, me and @Gregory Rainsborough have taken out Vile in his connie, I think @Vile Executioner is a more then capable captain, again in the hands of any captain who knows somewhat what he's doing any ship can become a nasty weapon. 
I'm sorry you had two less experienced snows fighting you, but they probably had the time of their life fighting a big 4th rate connie that they just couldn't kill. 
I see why you had less fun in this, but calling it griefing and such doesn't help anyone, It is a game, you win you lose, when I lose I'm the first to say GG. You outsmarted me, you outgamed me, you won. If its a draw well good for both of ya, on to the next battle (that isnt the forum to reduce somebody else his preferred ship, cause it caused you to have a bit less fun)

So end this post, this is no use, only more people getting worked up on something that isn't a problem, it takes guts to take on a big ship in a tiny ship. And kuddo's for them taking out the big ship. And kuddos for them taking out the small ship and calling it GG

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Jef said:

But Malachy, me and @Gregory Rainsborough have taken out Vile in his connie, I think @Vile Executioner is a more then capable captain, again in the hands of any captain who knows somewhat what he's doing any ship can become a nasty weapon. 
I'm sorry you had two less experienced snows fighting you, but they probably had the time of their life fighting a big 4th rate connie that they just couldn't kill. 
I see why you had less fun in this, but calling it griefing and such doesn't help anyone, It is a game, you win you lose, when I lose I'm the first to say GG. You outsmarted me, you outgamed me, you won. If its a draw well good for both of ya, on to the next battle (that isnt the forum to reduce somebody else his preferred ship, cause it caused you to have a bit less fun)

So end this post, this is no use, only more people getting worked up on something that isn't a problem, it takes guts to take on a big ship in a tiny ship. And kuddo's for them taking out the big ship. And kuddos for them taking out the small ship and calling it GG

Wasn't the same people each battle. They are all on the so called good snow captains list. Dunno how you got vile, I wasn't there. Technically you shouldn't have been able to, he's good and he doesn't make too many mistakes. Maybe you got him on an off day or something. And it's only no problem for snow captains, it's a problem for everyone else. This topic will not end until the ship rebalance. I will not shut up just to keep 6th rates from being adjusted. It's not in my best interest or the best interest of the myriad of large ship captains. Until 6th rate griefing is addressed, I will not Be silent.

 

I've seen Greg and you fight, I tip my hat to you guys, you are both great players but I still wouldn't be worried too much unless you had a few more. Not for lack of skill by any means on your parts but just the limitations of the ship. I used to be afraid of snows at one point don't get me wrong, I lost many a ship figuring out how to survive the encounters. 

  I fought notz in a wasa vs his niagara and he never even scratched me, he's pretty good too in 6th rates. 

I'm kinda with banished, if you know what to expect from a snow it's not too hard to counter it. I'm not  against the ship but the waste of an hour and a half of my time. At least any other class of ship you can force a conclusion one way or another fairly reliably. Only 6th rates have get out of dying free cards.

id also like to think you and Greg would be decent enough to sail away when you realized you were beat instead of keeping your opponent tagged for an extra hour out of spite which is generally how these go down. That's my beef with snows and 6th rates. They can keep you tagged and basically do nothing for an hour and a half and if you start to get the advantage, they sail up wind and keep you tagged.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Malachy

[Vile Executioner]

nerf  these 4pd gun snows  http://prntscr.com/hag550

[Eyesore]

If the small ship can keep you in battle ... so you can't reach the pb in time ... is that also griefing?

I would say: no, that is not griefing.

You also say that a snow is not hard to counter ... but they can 'grief' you for 90 minutes? How does that work? You let them? For the snow to get downwind ... wouldn't they get more distance from your 4th rate, and thus give you opportunities to manouvre and get your guns on them?

 

The mosclabvideo (lgv refit vs 1st rate) ... it is no wonder that the first rate lost, all he did was sail straight at a constant speed ... that guy so deserved to lose his ship. Incompetence is no reason to change the gamerules.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Eyesore
added the moscalbpart

[Hodo]

3 hours ago, Malachy said:

Wasn't the same people each battle. They are all on the so called good snow captains list. Dunno how you got vile, I wasn't there. Technically you shouldn't have been able to, he's good and he doesn't make too many mistakes. Maybe you got him on an off day or something. And it's only no problem for snow captains, it's a problem for everyone else. This topic will not end until the ship rebalance. I will not shut up just to keep 6th rates from being adjusted. It's not in my best interest or the best interest of the myriad of large ship captains. Until 6th rate griefing is addressed, I will not Be silent.

 

I've seen Greg and you fight, I tip my hat to you guys, you are both great players but I still wouldn't be worried too much unless you had a few more. Not for lack of skill by any means on your parts but just the limitations of the ship. I used to be afraid of snows at one point don't get me wrong, I lost many a ship figuring out how to survive the encounters. 

  I fought notz in a wasa vs his niagara and he never even scratched me, he's pretty good too in 6th rates. 

I'm kinda with banished, if you know what to expect from a snow it's not too hard to counter it. I'm not  against the ship but the waste of an hour and a half of my time. At least any other class of ship you can force a conclusion one way or another fairly reliably. Only 6th rates have get out of dying free cards.

id also like to think you and Greg would be decent enough to sail away when you realized you were beat instead of keeping your opponent tagged for an extra hour out of spite which is generally how these go down. That's my beef with snows and 6th rates. They can keep you tagged and basically do nothing for an hour and a half and if you start to get the advantage, they sail up wind and keep you tagged.

So again... now you say they aren't that hard to counter, yet before you were saying they are broken and overpowered.   Hmm.. make up your mind.

If they arent that hard to counter why are you crying about them tagging you into a battle.  When you should be able to defeat them and get back on your merry way in well under an hour. 

Not to mention... last I checked a Constitutions best point of sail, 135  is faster than a Snow at that SAME point of sail.   Unless you have a slow Constitution and they have a fast Snow... then in that case, turn and blow them to drift wood. 

 

Oh.. and you can turn a Constitution with a 6th rate, you can turn it with a 7th rate.   You have to get at the pivot point for the ship and get leverage to shove.  It isnt possible if you are fighting the wind.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Hodo

[Malachy]

3 hours ago, Hodo said:

So again... now you say they aren't that hard to counter, yet before you were saying they are broken and overpowered.   Hmm.. make up your mind.

If they arent that hard to counter why are you crying about them tagging you into a battle.  When you should be able to defeat them and get back on your merry way in well under an hour. 

Not to mention... last I checked a Constitutions best point of sail, 135  is faster than a Snow at that SAME point of sail.   Unless you have a slow Constitution and they have a fast Snow... then in that case, turn and blow them to drift wood. 

 

Oh.. and you can turn a Constitution with a 6th rate, you can turn it with a 7th rate.   You have to get at the pivot point for the ship and get leverage to shove.  It isnt possible if you are fighting the wind.

First of all I have never said snows were overpowered. Ever. This thread is about folks using 6th rates to grief large ships. That is all this thread is about. Just because you can keep from being killed by them doesn't mean that it's ok for them to waste and hour of your time or more , usually put of spite for not rolling over and dying for them. 

Next, the snow has a high enough base speed that it can exceed the speed cap. That means that it has extra speed it can pour into points not good for it. While my Connie is 15 knots, that's all it can do downwind. A snow that's capped at 15.5 and say exceeds the speed cap by a knot can do 15.5 at 135 which is not optimal for the snow but the speed it can do over the cap allows it to do better at a bad point for it. That is another discussion entirely and also needs addressed. Basically it means a large ship cannot outrun them at any point of sail. 

Finally, I'm aware that you can turn a Connie to hit a snow. But you get limited number of attempts at it. You do it too much, especially if they have worked over your sails you basically end up allowing them to board you which is what they are trying to do. That's how they capture larger ships... the idiot captains get so focused on trying to kill them, they turn too far into the wind and give the snow exactly what they are after. Usually after losing a bunch of crew. 

I have not asked for snows to be nerfed or any 6th rates. What I have asked is mechanics be looked at to prevent wasting my time for little or zero reward. It's not fair that they gain 10 to 12 marks if they get my Connie, but I might get one or two pvp marks if I kill them. Especially with them being able to escape upwind at will, which will happen 95 times out of 100. The fact that they can sit up there indefinitely while keeping you tagged with a poor gun solution on them is ridiculous. 

If someone is going to grief me for hours, I better get something good out of it. As it stands, they can keep you in battle and waste as much of your time as they want and there is no penalty for them and no recompense for my wasted time. That's what's wrong with 6th rates. A larger ship can't do that without paying for it. I'd sink a surprise that tried to do that in a couple minutes.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[CaptVonGunn]

On 11/13/2017 at 3:54 AM, The Red Duke said:

A 1st rate can, theoretically, destroy them without problems - read: if the 1st rate forces the corsair squadron to escape, that is a victory. It all starts with 1 things. OW position of the 1st rate relative to the wind. 

Given some nations must rely less on massive fleets and more on "privateer, corsair" types due to constraints on economy - very very historical - I cannot see any problems with emulating in-game the HMS Africa engagement versus the danish gunboats  

I think the OPs issue is the guys that are not actually trying to win in the Small ships.. just staying at range and tagging to be asreholes. 

Then I have issues with the forcing someone into combat from distance...   Ie... if you cant be within reasonable gun range when Battle starts you really shouldn't be able to have forced a battle to begin with.  

 But then I think all battles should start with Ball loaded in all guns.. You would have cleared for action during  the chase....  prepared Perk should just let to change loads before battle starts... 

 But that is me and everyone has a different view

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

If someone is going to grief me for hours, I better get something good out of it. As it stands, they can keep you in battle and waste as much of your time as they want and there is no penalty for them and no recompense for my wasted time. That's what's wrong with 6th rates.

Well said, but I will add it ain't specific of unrated, but let's go beyond rates now if we can. Completely eliminating a playstyle that involves daring due to some... *sigh*... type of players is a no go on my book. But let's look it from another angle...

I imagine anyone wanting to grief will be the Attack side, so wouldn't the Attacker be the one bound to some specific sort of "mechanic" ?

 

Aye vonGunn, reckon there was a bit of dust in the air from both sides of the fence. Pretty normal, especially when the playstyles are diametral. Personally I don't grief nor any of the fellows I follow suit. Cannot see the point of it, although when we are beaten back, by God, we do lick wound and GG. Did plenty of times.

We do have a distinct playstyle due to the historical side of age of sail we like the most - yankee privateers, french corsairs, etc - and that lives of OW prey as opposed to others that like the historical side of Trafalgar and similar game style.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Malachy]

55 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Well said, but I will add it ain't specific of unrated, but let's go beyond rates now if we can. Completely eliminating a playstyle that involves daring due to some... *sigh*... type of players is a no go on my book. But let's look it from another angle...

I imagine anyone wanting to grief will be the Attack side, so wouldn't the Attacker be the one bound to some specific sort of "mechanic" ?

 

It's mainly a problem with the small ships. Their absurdly small profile makes them extremely tough to hit at long ranges and the damage fall off basically makes what hits you get moot. Add in the fact that all pf them perform extremely well up wind and they have such high base speeds to begin with that their sailing profiles don't present them with many drawbacks as many of them can stack speed so that even if they lose some sailing at a bad point, they still are faster than s bigger ship at its best point. Then the rewards are paltry for killing them, so where does a large ship captain benefit from the encounter? There is no pleasure to be had from the skirmish, no monetary or mark reward even if you manage to sink one, the only thing the large ship captain gets from the encounter is Ann hour and a half of frustration and boredom.

a frigate attempting the same thing is much more likely to get killed or be forced to exit the encounter. 

I fought some renomees the other day. That is arguably one of the fastest ships in game, and one of the smallest frigates. There was no issue with fighting the battle to a conclusion or forcing a conclusion one way or another. One sank, the other ran, battle lasted half hour tops and was fun for both sides. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Eyesore]

59 minutes ago, Malachy said:

as many of them can stack speed so that even if they lose some sailing at a bad point, they still are faster than s bigger ship at its best point.

As every rate can? Small and big?

...

[Malachy]

14 minutes ago, Eyesore said:

As every rate can? Small and big?

...

Actually no, most frigates and all 4th and larger cap out at the cap  15.5 or abit lower. The 6th rates And a couple 5th can stack to well over 17 so that it basically eliminates their weak points of sail. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Malachy

[Eyesore]

So the problem lies with the upgrades? And sailingprofiles?

Edited November 15, 2017 by Eyesore

[Lz3]

20 hours ago, Malachy said:

Wrong, the snow can't turn a 4th rate, two of them can't even with a pit maneuver, unless the 4th rate turns with them. They couldn't do it at 40 percent sails. All the 4th rate captain has to do is turn rudder away from the direction the snows want to turn him and keep the wind at his back. One even tried to get in front and drop sails, I ran over him. There's a bit more to it than that but I'm not here to teach the finer points of dealing with shit ships. As I said, you've been fighting incompetents who don't know how to handle their ships. 

Griefing is the intentional harrassment of another player. In this case by two ships who don't have the capability to force a conclusion to the battle so they keep you tagged the full time. 

That is a malformed point. Whatever evidence I show you, you are going to always say that it is a bad 4th rate player. You've proven my point above with Jef's story about Vile where you claim that he must have had an "off-day". The thing is; until you understand that snows can indeed sink a capable player this thread is pointless to further continue. 

 

7 hours ago, Malachy said:

It's mainly a problem with the small ships. Their absurdly small profile makes them extremely tough to hit at long ranges and the damage fall off basically makes what hits you get moot. Add in the fact that all pf them perform extremely well up wind and they have such high base speeds to begin with that their sailing profiles don't present them with many drawbacks as many of them can stack speed so that even if they lose some sailing at a bad point, they still are faster than s bigger ship at its best point. Then the rewards are paltry for killing them, so where does a large ship captain benefit from the encounter? There is no pleasure to be had from the skirmish, no monetary or mark reward even if you manage to sink one, the only thing the large ship captain gets from the encounter is Ann hour and a half of frustration and boredom.

a frigate attempting the same thing is much more likely to get killed or be forced to exit the encounter. 

I fought some renomees the other day. That is arguably one of the fastest ships in game, and one of the smallest frigates. There was no issue with fighting the battle to a conclusion or forcing a conclusion one way or another. One sank, the other ran, battle lasted half hour tops and was fun for both sides. 

Above you say that the main problem is small ships doing this, but the actual problem is people keeping you in battle for a long time. Tackling an issue with gameplay by taking out more gameplay that is otherwise not an issue is always a horrible idea. It generally leads players to quit, and if done repeatedly the game has a chance of dying. Frigates can do this as well. They are harder to hit, but you with 40% sails will not be able to avert a Suprise sterncamping you. Reversing one of your big claims here; What if the frigate player was simply bad?

 

Now to your definition of griefing. The "intentional harassment of another player by two players who cannot force a conclusion to the battle". This is a fair statement on your side, but we have now shown that 6th rates and/or frigates are definitely capable of sinking an enemy vessel so this claim is thereby invalid. It's just now a case of are you willing to accept that this happens to good 4th rate players as well..

[Lz3]

Here's a picture of HMS Victory to prove my point. If you, in any type of vessel, ram the vessel in the furthest forward point of the bow (where it is very thin, almost like one long board) it is very easy to turn the enemy vessel. if you do it incorrectly and your side hits that part you are going to be pushed along. If you let too much of 6th rates bow hit the enemies bow your bowsprit will break off. But if you, with the left side of your bow in this case, hit the victory right there where the two broadsides come together into a figurehead then you can turn whatever ship you want. Example: Tugboat. 

The Victory is actually a more difficult ship to turn because as you see in the picture, its front is still quite round. Other 5th-1st rates are suprisingly easy to turn. I suggest you go into a battle with a friend, shoot his sails down to 50%, and then attempt to turn him this way. You will find, if you don't make mistakes, it works very well.