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Malachy

Eliminate small ship griefing

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The most frustrating thing left in this game is groups of 6th rates attacking a larger ship they have no prayer of defeating and keeping him in battle for an hour plus. Over the past week, this has happened to me four times. That's over six hours of being griefed by two snows who could not defeat me, but kept me tagged for the full battle timer or the majority of it. 

I play the game to have fun, not fight a meaningless battle that even had I managed to sink one or both, the rewards do not even come close to being worth the time and effort spent. Every time I hit one, they just sail up wind out of range, heal for twenty minutes and rinse and repeat. It's incredibly boring and not worth anyone's time. 

I have two solutions: 

1. Make a broadside from a 4th rate or larger put a 6th rate into shock for 3 minutes. The few seconds of shock don't do anything to deter this sort of griefing. While in shock, the 6th rate should have no sail or rudder or fire control. 

2. Make all sixth rates newbie ships like the basic cutter. Allow them to be tagged or into port battles but unable to tag anything larger than a 5th rate. There is not a single historical record of a 6th rate defeating a 4th or larger in combat or boarding action. This solution allows them to defend themselves but eliminates the sort of griefing that has become endless these days. I prefer solution 2 but solution 1 would work. Right now these guys have nothing to lose and everything to gain by griefing larger ships. There either needs to be considerabley more risk for them or the possible rewards need to be removed. 

If I am out there in a 4th rate, I am not out there to fight two snows for an hour and a half for virtually no reward even if I sink them. I have everything to lose, they risk nothing as they are in a cheap ship with no decent mods that has an artifical get out of trouble free ability. Where my ship costs hundreds of thousands to build, and has millions of gold worth of mods just to be competitive.while none have been competent enough to defeat me, I have everything to lose and they have nothing to lose. Wasting another players time in a pointless fight is one of the things that drives players away from this game. Who wants to fight for Ann hour and a half for nothing, and let me stress again this is about the most boring sort of fight in this game. If folks want to sail these ships, fine by me. Let them stay in the shallows where they belong. Griefing deep water ships may be fun for them, but it's not fun for the guy in the deep water ship. Who wants to spend an hour and a half of their leisure time being harassed by a couple gnats who have no prayer of winning vs a competent captain? Not me. @admin

Edited by Malachy

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I'd rather have 6-7th rates be more viable than the opposite tbh and while this griefing you described sounds like pure toxic cancer, there has to be a better way to fix it... i know im in the minority with my opinion but i think the game would be more interesting, if more people sailed 6-7 rates...

Also this would be easily fixed by removing the retarded endless repairs.... as well as alot of other issues that are caused mainly by multiple repairs. Just saying...

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17 minutes ago, Landsman said:

I'd rather have 6-7th rates be more viable than the opposite tbh and while this griefing you described sounds like pure toxic cancer, there has to be a better way to fix it... i know im in the minority with my opinion but i think the game would be more interesting, if more people sailed 6-7 rates...

Also this would be easily fixed by removing the retarded endless repairs.... as well as alot of other issues that are caused mainly by multiple repairs. Just saying...

As implemented 6th rates are broken and ridiculously overpowered compared to their size and actual real life abilities. If they get a less experienced captain, with the broken boarding mechanics they can actually win against a 1st rate. 

I'm opening a dialogue here. Quite simply in real life you would never see a 6th rate or even a group of them attack a 4th rate. And if they were stupid enough to do so, they would be on the bottom in one hit. 

Im tired of my time being wasted night after night by ships that aren't worth fighting let alone any fun to battle. Removing repairs gives these ships an even greater artificial advantage they should not have though. Somehow the developers think a ship that should not be able to elevate its guns above hold level should be able to rake 100 crew off of a ships gun deck that's well above the gun line of a snow etc. 

i play this game for many reasons, none of them include fighting crappy little ships that are innaccurately portrayed.

I'd love to see all ships used, but within limits. Leave the shallow ships in the shallows. They have no place in large ship pvp. In real life they were courriers and scouts. They saw a large ship they ran as fast As they could, they didn't engage them, and those that were forced to struck their colors.

Edited by Malachy

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Lol...  2 decent captains in Princes can easily take down a Wasa...  getting “griefed” by 6th rates is almost as annoying as 15.5 knot Wasa captains that run away from a couple of 6th rates. 

1) make 4th rates incapable of speeds above 13.5

2) make catains have to get 100 PvP kills before they can move up a rate...

 

See how easy it is to make unreasonable demands??

 

and *ahem* HMS Speedy vs. El Gamo *ahem*

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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4 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Lol...  2 decent captains in Princes can easily take down a Wasa...  getting “griefed” by 6th rates is almost as annoying as 15.5 knot Wasa captains that run away from a couple of 6th rates. 

1) make 4th rates incapable of speeds above 13.5

2) make catains have to get 100 PvP kills before they can move up a rate...

 

See how easy it is to make unreasonable demands??

2 good prince captains cannot take down a good wasa captain. Maybe some noon who just got his wasa, but not an experienced pvper. The fact they can even accomplish this against a noob in a wasa is ridiculous. 

Im fine with speed for all ships being capped at 14. There were very few age of sail ships that could exceed that. The constitution being one of them :) 

[please address others with respect if you wish to be treated the same way ~the moderation team~]You can't grief someone who can sail away at will. 4th rates can't sail away from 6th rates at will. A 15 knot wasa cannot grief a 15 knot prince even if he wanted to. Prince just sails away upwind and escapes battle. 

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We’ll be sure to tell that to the Swedes we’ve been taking those Wasas from....  

I don’t necessarily disagree about your assertion regarding the physics of it, however...  This search for “balance” is creating some strange effects...

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21 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

We’ll be sure to tell that to the Swedes we’ve been taking those Wasas from....  

I don’t necessarily disagree about your assertion regarding the physics of it, however...  This search for “balance” is creating some strange effects...

Well, the swedes are good in port battles but not very good on the OS in my experience. And if I seem salty, I have limited time to play and the last thing I want to do is log in and have my whole play time being taken up by a couple morons who think it's fun to keep me tagged for an hour and a half. 

There needs to be some balance, that's for sure, the risk should also be commensurate with the reward. 1 or two pvp mark for sinking a snow is ridiculously pathetic for the amount of effort you need to put into it. Something no large ship captain ever had to do in real life. Just a couple balls from a 24 lb gun would sink a 6th rate. 

How about make it so all the 5th and larger ships get a sailing point where they can escape from any 6th rate. Make all the 6ths upwind ships or something so they can hunt traders like they were supposed to. 

Edited by Malachy

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Actually if a 4th rate in real life encountered 2-3 6th rates it would fear being boarded because real life doesn’t allow 1 ship at a time for boarding or 3 knot speed to climb on board. In real life the 6ths would have a fighting chance. So this argument about a “real life scenario” in game won’t work. 6th rates have purpose, to harass and be underestimated in battle. 2 snows can easily take on a 4th rate. 2 skilled snows can take down even the most skilled 4th rates. There isn’t enough 6th rate hunters in game, but they have their place right now and currently I enjoy it. No reason a 6th rate captain can’t have their fun because a 4th rate captain doesn’t think it should be allowed. Realistic does not have a place for this since the games combat is 50/50 on realism anyway.

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2 hours ago, Vile Executioner said:

Actually if a 4th rate in real life encountered 2-3 6th rates it would fear being boarded because real life doesn’t allow 1 ship at a time for boarding or 3 knot speed to climb on board. In real life the 6ths would have a fighting chance. So this argument about a “real life scenario” in game won’t work. 6th rates have purpose, to harass and be underestimated in battle. 2 snows can easily take on a 4th rate. 2 skilled snows can take down even the most skilled 4th rates. There isn’t enough 6th rate hunters in game, but they have their place right now and currently I enjoy it. No reason a 6th rate captain can’t have their fun because a 4th rate captain doesn’t think it should be allowed. Realistic does not have a place for this since the games combat is 50/50 on realism anyway.

They can take down a 4th rate actually too easy with the huge amount of crewkills and easy boarding with boarding mods. Once you have 1 snow behind you and 1 on range shooting sails its pretty impossiblr to win.

And even if you do the thing malachy describes happens. I guess I know one of the guys you mention here and for him its a valid tactic. He griefs someone so long that he surrenders his ship.

Do we realy want to have that ingame?

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Is it possible for 2 snows to tack a large ship (1st?) ?

All in all i dont like this game to be a game for big ship captains only. I want to have a role for the smaller ships in this game. So I dont like this suggestion, just because a captain is pissed. I haddn't that situation myself but i believe in you that this is frustrating (similar to a situation, when captains use an exploit to avoid a fight with a bigger fleet outside at la navasse, that was hardly organized. But that is another issue). There must be another way to solve this, without hitting the small ships again and again with new nerfs.

@Landsman said to remove multiple repairs. That is much better than other changes, because that endless repairs are a pain at all. But in a heavy and bad maneuverable ship this wouldn't help you and this is good. Maybe to think about an escort ship would help next time before leaving the harbour alone.


 

 

 

Edited by Sven Silberbart

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As the age old saying goes ... don't sail alone?

@OP: Smaller br can't attack bigger br, but the other way around is allowed ... Why would you want to hurt small ships even more? You have almost free 4th rates (wasa), 'because it is too hard to actually gather resources and craft ships'. It is ok for traders to be attacked by Wasa's? But small ships shouldn't be able to attack back? That wasa is not griefing then?

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8 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Is it possible for 2 snows to tack a large ship (1st?) ?

All in all i dont like this game to be a game for big ship captains only. I want to have a role for the smaller ships in this game. So I dont like this suggestion, just because a captain is pissed. I haddn't that situation myself but i believe in you that this is frustrating (similar to a situation, when captains use an exploit to avoid a fight with a bigger fleet outside at la navasse, that was hardly organized. But that is another issue). There must be another way to solve this, without hitting the small ships again and again with new nerfs.

@Landsman said to remove multiple repairs. That is much better than other changes, because that endless repairs are a pain at all. But in a heavy and bad maneuverable ship this wouldn't help you and this is good. Maybe to think about an escort ship would help next time before leaving the harbour alone.



 

 

 

its not realy about the fighting (even though it wucks aswell becajse 6th rates turnrates are OP)

Its about griefing by attacking someone into the battleinstance and then shoot sails until the enemy runs out of time. I was myself tagged 5 times repeatetly and its just bullshit. You can win the fight but that isnt helping you. He will sail awqy, get on OW and tag you again.

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I disagree. It would be great if more people were to sail 6th (hell, even 7th). If all those Wasas and P-Frigates in OW start to complain, it only shows that people finally start figuring out how to use these smaller ships properly. That's a good thing! 

If at all, make 6th rates more worthwhile. The more variety in OW, the better. 

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Since I joined the game I never cared about any other ship class than 6th rates. I used rattlesnake, now prince, to attack all ship classes (except 5th rate, turn too well). Taking out a wasa, bellona, santisima etc. captain is definetly possible. It requires a lot of skill as if you mess up once you could receive a whole broadside. 

It's not griefing. It requires a lot of skill to perform and if done correctly the results are great.

If you spent over 6 HOURS in 4 battles that would mean that each battle is one and a half hours. That means you are doing something wrong and the snows are doing something wrong. If you can't broadside them, they must be behind you. And if they are behind you they must be shooting your crew? Then why are you still in battle and not being boarded? Also, over 6 hours? So you broke the game and the battles were longer than 90min?I quite frankly don't believe the 6 hours statement. 

It has always been an advantage for small ships to outmanouver big ships. Should not be removed, but maybe  (as also done historically) you shouldn't sail around alone in a ship of the line and then complain about being attacked by smaller vessels.

Edited by Lz3

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47 minutes ago, rediii said:

its not realy about the fighting (even though it wucks aswell becajse 6th rates turnrates are OP)

Its about griefing by attacking someone into the battleinstance and then shoot sails until the enemy runs out of time. I was myself tagged 5 times repeatetly and its just bullshit. You can win the fight but that isnt helping you. He will sail awqy, get on OW and tag you again.

I do not want to appear disrespectful, but - really - nowdays we have the forum full of complaints of the same five (maybe six or seven) very skilled and ubergeard OS PVPers that just want their personal playstyle to be untouchable by other players.

What kind of fair fight are you talking about, when you - that are very skilled, have all the exp slots open and all the possible books leaned, have all the right mods in place (including the new PVP ones too) - can pick up the fight attacking at will a ship of a lower BR than yours?

I simply cannot undestand why a Wasa is allowed attack, let's say, a Tbrig that cannot stand any chance neither to fight nor to flee and yet being awarded PVP marks (and that seems to be perfectly fine with you), while - if a bunch of snows can outlast a Wasa then - well .... that's griefing (or a bullshit).

A solution may be called actually fair if it benefits both parties: and that solution would be that - in presence of a huge difference of BR - there shall be no fight, no matter who is attacking who. This could be fair. But fairness does not belong at all to a scenario in which the part that is already stronger gets the all the advandages against the weaker one.

Edited by victor

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Yesterday we had a great battle of unrated corsair schooners and frankenrigs versus two pirate rigged frigates near Charles Town, swedish territories. One 7th and two 6th vs two 5th.

Started with the corsairs engaging one of the frigates. Second one joined shortly after the battle started.

One of the frigate captains was in "panic" mode at first but his companion surely put his brains to work and they developed a nice Thach Weave to counter the razor blade passes of the small ships. There was this moment where one of the 5th was so low on crew that we tried to force the boarding but he kept his cool. Kudos for their teamwork.

They kept changing from chain to ball, from rigging to hull to grape. I wish more of such attitude and team bonds would develop between a clearly experienced veteran and a not-so-experienced captain would happen more.

One of the most enjoyable display of "air combat" tactics in Naval Action in a while. The similarities between bigger fighters fighting off weaker more nimble fighters in a air combat sim is exactly the same.

It ended with the loss of the 7th and one 6th rate after a few crew shocks on both frigates, armors being stripped also, and proper rakes on the 5th rates, and masts falling on the unrated and eventually water pouring in. One lived to tell the tale and was brave enough to sail to both wrecks and salvage all the goods from previous raids and escape from the combat.

Salute to the Swedish navy captains for the great NA moment.

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44 minutes ago, legendleroy said:

there are enough captains in snows that can take out a bigger ships. so why whould they not be allowed to do it. and  dont sail alone in a big slow ship. easy as that.

Would you say the same if 1st rates would destroy all and everyone without problems?

Just asking.

 

If a ship is OP it has to be nerfed. Nothing more. Productioncost isnt equal the value in small fleet engagements of 6th rates.

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1 minute ago, rediii said:

Would you say the same if 1st rates would destroy all and everyone without problems?

Just asking.

 

If a ship is OP it has to be nerfed. Nothing more. Productioncost isnt equal the value in small fleet engagements of 6th rates.

A firstrate can desytroy everything ;-) It just need a skilled captain and not mission makers trying to fight like they would fight Ai.

1 broadside really one good braodside of a pavel can sink a prince and a pavel isnt a first rate ;-)

The problem are not the ships. The problem are the captains that commandeer the ships

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A 1st rate can, theoretically, destroy them without problems - read: if the 1st rate forces the corsair squadron to escape, that is a victory. It all starts with 1 things. OW position of the 1st rate relative to the wind. 

Given some nations must rely less on massive fleets and more on "privateer, corsair" types due to constraints on economy - very very historical - I cannot see any problems with emulating in-game the HMS Africa engagement versus the danish gunboats :) 

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2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Would you say the same if 1st rates would destroy all and everyone without problems?

Just asking.

 

If a ship is OP it has to be nerfed. Nothing more. Productioncost isnt equal the value in small fleet engagements of 6th rates.

yeah but he is talking about griefing. that he beat the snows. and i dont feel like the snow is op. a smaller ship can just stern camp a bigger ship but thats obvious. there are snow players that try to sink a bigger ship and dont waste your time. and that should be oke. 

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4 minutes ago, z4ys said:

A firstrate can desytroy everything ;-) It just need a skilled captain and not mission makers trying to fight like they would fight Ai.

1 broadside really one good braodside of a pavel can sink a prince and a pavel isnt a first rate ;-)

The problem are not the ships. The problem are the captains that commandeer the ships

 

4 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

A 1st rate can, theoretically, destroy them without problems - read: if the 1st rate forces the corsair squadron to escape, that is a victory. It all starts with 1 things. OW position of the 1st rate relative to the wind. 

Given some nations must rely less on massive fleets and more on "privateer, corsair" types due to constraints on economy - very very historical - I cannot see any problems with emulating in-game the HMS Africa engagement versus the danish gunboats :) 

A firstrate has not a single chance to kill 3 6th rates grouping up on it.

Why? Because it cant turn fast enough to even shoot a broadside while losing crew without end.

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The only advantage a 6th rate has over larger ships is it's agility and you want to take that away? 

Why does everything has to be balanced in a way where  everything can sink everything guaranteed? We might as well get an "I win" button if you are sailing a bigger ship than your enemy

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