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Port battle feedback - battles with BR limits

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I never understood why not to give each port a definition wich ship type can participate in wich counts.

Why not say:

Camp du Roy:

2 x 2nd Rate

4 x 4th rate

4 x 5th rate

4 x 6th rate

or something like that. I think "go away from mono fleets" is the right step, but a PB needs to start with equal conditions on each side. Otherwise the ligther side always have to do "Kite and Cap".

 

 

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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I was in Grand Turk and nearly had to participate Santa Marta but knowing the outcome we went out of the harbour and had a OW battle instead. I also did a lot of theorycrafting with some guys.

 

First a comment to our russian guys from yesterday that say swedes only run away blabla

1. I didn't say I did something tactically brilliant

2. We didn't kite either. We chained once and then engaged in a normal fight having the downwind position

3. YOU spawned in a totally useless position. Only the ocean spanwed on the right position and you said he spawned wrong lol ...

4. YOU didn't went for ANY circles. You sent your 3 princes and 1 ocean to a circle and that was it. Rest of your fleet just wanted to engage us. You do and did so many portbattles and have no clue how they work I don't understand it.

5. Watch the video

6. Your weakness disgusts me. :D Joking, but realy. Please play with babay and leave your own stuff. You don't have anyone who understands gamemechanics.

 

So now to the new mechanic.

 

It gives small nations the wrong impression to be able to do portbattles against a big nation. Also it gives the impression that you can win with just a few ships inside the battle which is wrong ofcourse.

From my experience the meta will be 21-23 ships inside the battle. I don't like it but Pit Pinsel got it right here I guess. 19 Wasa, 4 Mortars for a 5100 Br battle.

 

- You need 32 pounders in a battle to be able to fight everything. 24 pounders are not enough and useless due to BR. 18 pounders are barely able to do something and are the minimum ship that is helpfull in battles but is ok due to BR limits

- if you don't have 20 players don't go to the portbattle. Makes no sense. Both sides

- You will see setups like in camp du roy where 1 side can't fight because they have too many small ships and 1 side can't fight because they don't have enough fast ships.

- Screening is king. As a defender just don't screen 3-4 times. There will be no screening after that anymore because it bores people.

- you need more players for a portbattle now due to screening

 

What can/has to be done.

1. Fix the ShipBR's

2. Let circles be captured by BR. I think it will create "more" mixed fleets. No real mixed fleets because it's bullshit but you have some variety between the lineships (32 pound lineships because 24 doesnt realy penetrate) and you may have 2-3 frigates inside the battle and a few mortars but not more.

After these 2 we can try further ...

 

 

A big problem in my oppinion is that frigates play no role in big lineship fights. With lineships I mean wasa and up (not the other 4th rates). A 5th rate has no place in these battles except going for probably no existent mortar brigs and capturing circles. Maybe shooting some chains but not more. Also ships without 32 pounders are no use. Why? Because 24 barely penetrates a lineship with current woods and upgrades. If you can't penetrate you are of no use.

Edited by rediii
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8 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

Fair enough. 

You never HAVE to do anything. You could have brawled, but you didn't. So you chose to run and kite. 


Cap circles don't work in this limited setup. Outnumber as defender, chain and cap circles. No fun can be had like that. Not really tactical either.

And I don't think it has anything to do with discipline either. Chosing to run because of numbers so you can cap cirlces in mechanics abuse in my eyes. Not fighting on purpose so to say.

You have to do something to win. A full brawl would have been stupid from us so we stayed together and focused damage. When you guys had enough damage and splitted a bit we turned trough the wind to have a better position to fight.

But with your standpoint here I know why russia is so bad right now.

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Wow, Rediii getting salty,

the Russians are trying out Systems to find one that works, not one that fits in with your expectations of a port battle.

Get over it, we will Play and Experiment for our benefit not yours.

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3 minutes ago, rediii said:

 

2. Let circles be captured by BR. I think it will create "more" mixed fleets. No real mixed fleets because it's bullshit but you have some variety between the lineships (32 pound lineships because 24 doesnt realy penetrate) and you may have 2-3 frigates inside the battle and a few mortars but not more.

If circles are captured by BR (and not by numbers) then BR limits are not needed as instead of fun 25v25 first rate battles we will have somewhat fun 15v15 first rate battles because if BR determines the capture you will have to take max BR ships to cap points and heavily tanked first rates will win circles even if outnumbered so the other side will have to take heavy ships too

Overall the next step will be

  • limitations on the ships for example
    • 4th rates to line ships
    • Brigs to 4th rates
    • Cutters to rattlesnakes
  • Increases of BR for large and medium size ports and reductions for shallow water ports
  • Potentially increasing the points for losing the ships (narrowing the gap between cutter and victory in cost of loss) 

If this does not work then the mixed fleet idea is probably not a good idea, because you can't remove kiting and you need objectives 

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3 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

Wow, Rediii getting salty,

the Russians are trying out Systems to find one that works, not one that fits in with your expectations of a port battle.

Get over it, we will Play and Experiment for our benefit not yours.

All I see is Russians getting salty for Swedes using a valid strategy to win the PB. "Swedes always running" "Swedes kiting" jajaja

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Just now, admin said:

If circles are captured by BR (and not by numbers) then BR limits are not needed as instead of fun 25v25 first rate battles we will have somewhat fun 15v15 first rate battles because if BR determines the capture you will have to take max BR ships to cap points and heavily tanked first rates will win circles even if outnumbered so the other side will have to take heavy ships too

Overall the next step will be

  • limitations on the ships for example
    • 4th rates to line ships
    • Brigs to 4th rates
    • Cutters to rattlesnakes
  • Increases of BR for large and medium size ports and reductions for shallow water ports
  • Potentially increasing the points for losing the ships (narrowing the gap between cutter and victory in cost of loss) 

If this does not work then the mixed fleet idea is probably not a good idea, because you can't remove kiting and you need objectives 

1 1st rate loses against 2 small ships. 2 wasas would destroy a firstrate. (or 1 3rd and 1 wasa)

noone will sail rattlesnakes in lineship battles.

 

I said earlier that the guys that like the new system don't even play portbattles. that wasn't meant in a positive way. They will also play no portbattles with the new system.

 

limitations on ships ... Why do we even need limitations? People only like to sail ships they can do something with. Noone enjoys sailing rattles or something in a wasabattle.

 

Sorry but you destroy the endgame right now in my oppinion.

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4 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

"SHALLOW WATER" ports are still indicated as before in the map, but now we got some ports with low BR which are wrongly assimilated to shallow, but the intention I guess, was to convert them in smaller scale PB's with large variety of ships (including higher than light ships).

So some further adjustment should be applied as follow

 

- Hostilities missions should be reworked adequately to port BR.

- Map rework: 

==> "SHALLOW WATER" ports should have much larger shallow water zone so screening can only be performed by shallow ships, including hostility missions.

- Ports BR should be reworked:

 ==>  Only "shallow water" ports should have 1700BR.

 ==>  Except for "shallow water" ports: Cancel 1700BR which is much too low, ports BR should start from 3400 up to 16000BR (full Santisima!), excluding lower ships than 5th rates. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, rediii said:

A big problem in my oppinion is that frigates play no role in big lineship fights. With lineships I mean wasa and up (not the other 4th rates). A 5th rate has no place in these battles except going for probably no existent mortar brigs and capturing circles. Maybe shooting some chains but not more. Also ships without 32 pounders are no use. Why? Because 24 barely penetrates a lineship with current woods and upgrades. If you can't penetrate you are of no use.

A frigate can:

- Fast capture circle (as you said)

- Effectivly slow down enemies from distance (as you said)

- Sink mortar brigs if unprotected (as you said)

- Sink lone / heavily damaged ships if unprotected

A line ship can:

- go brawl against other line ships

..There are useful roles in my opinion (maybe not much liked, but useful)

 

Previous mono fleet battle gave equal start situations. This is the real problem! Mixed fleets are very good, but we need to equal the starting setup. That also would bring the frigate type ship a new role:

- Go into close fight with other frigate

 

A close combat only exists in equal fleet compositions. That is the problem, not the ship types lower than lineships. Just my 2 cents

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, rediii said:

People only like to sail ships they can do something with. Noone enjoys sailing rattles or something in a wasabattle.

 

that is true. rattlesnake cannot do anything against a first rate and can only kite. The goal was to promote a mixed fleet. But mixed fleets don't work with current penetration mechanics if players are using old tactics..

There is an idea to take the point capture system from legends, where point cannot be captured if there is an enemy present. Then the bigger ships can just stop the capture by just being in the zone. While the main fleet focuses on destroying the enemy lowering enemy points and getting points for themselves even if they don't control any zones.  Then 3 first rates and 3 frigates can then stop capture for all three zones even against 25 lynxes.

 

So the proposal is this for next test

  • Capture zones only if it is clear of the enemy
  • Increase points for ship destruction (negative if your side lost a ship, positive if your side sank an enemy ship)
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28 minutes ago, rediii said:

I said earlier that the guys that like the new system don't even play portbattles. that wasn't meant in a positive way. They will also play no portbattles with the new system.

 

limitations on ships ... Why do we even need limitations? People only like to sail ships they can do something with. Noone enjoys sailing rattles or something in a wasabattle.

 

Sorry but you destroy the endgame right now in my oppinion.

I know you dont like the mixed fleets, but I heard much voices wich like that idea. Mono fleets are tested a big time. Now give the mixed fleet system the same chance please. You are right to say: the fleet composition must be useful and need to give every player to take a valuable part of the PB. But that is just a question of balancing, not  a question of the basic idea behind that.

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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33 minutes ago, admin said:
  • limitations on the ships for example
    • 4th rates to line ships
    • Brigs to 4th rates
    • Cutters to rattlesnakes
  • Increases of BR for large and medium size ports and reductions for shallow water ports
  • Potentially increasing the points for losing the ships (narrowing the gap between cutter and victory in cost of loss) 

Please dont throw this idea away so fast. Balance it instead.

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Mixed fleets is fine in general, but we don't need to mix sixth rates with second rates. IMO it would be mixed enough if PB limitations made us use 5-6 different ships in a PB fleet.

 

 

40 minutes ago, admin said:

Overall the next step will be

  • limitations on the ships for example
    • 4th rates to line ships
    • Brigs to 4th rates
    • Cutters to rattlesnakes

 If you know your opponent can at best bring 4th rates, you need to bring ships that can damage 4th rates. That is an improvement over the system we have today, but it brings us back close to the old system.  If the limit is 4th rate, the ideal fleet will be as many Wasa as possible.  Don't expect to see significant fleet variation. Same for Rattlesnake - expect as many Rattlesnake as possible. And in Lineship PB, don't expect anything but as many Bucentaure as possible.

Especially if you're making any changes to circle capture that favors fewer, heavier ships.

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A mixture of BR & ship restriction could be interesting as follow:

 

Ports with 1700BR ==>  "SHALOOW WATER" ports exclusively for 7th to 6th rates 

Ports with 3400BR to 5100BR ==> exclusively for 5th to 4th rates 

Ports with 6800 to 8200BR ==> exclusively for 4th to 3rd rates

Ports with 10000 to 15000BR ==> exclusively for 2nd to 1rst rates 

 

This suggestion would create something NEW to be tested by having a large vareity of ships to be involved in PB's, since up to now PB's were mostly fought by only 4 to 5 types of ships.

now, number & position of those ports have to be wisely thought, peeps like heavy ships epic battles !

Edited by Celtiberofrog
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I was in Santa Marta "port battle", and also scouted/screened for couple of others. Meaning that I don't have a large enough sample to make any real deep analysis.

Based on these few experiences, I have following notes.

Current BR limits are making port battle fleets smaller and easier to screen. Defenders have a big advantage here, as they can often decide to screen after seeing the attackers fleet and their screen size. However, I would still like to see effect and rewards for screening. (e.g. Give some victory points for PB based on sinkings in the nearby open world at the same time. And also give some extra xp and money from OW battles.)

Ship BR's need to be recalculated. As mentioned many times above.

I still like the capture of circles by ship numbers. This gives a reason to bring few fast ships and gives a useful role for low rank players.

As for ship class limits. Maybe there could be main ship rate for each port, that need to be something like 50% (or more) of the BR. Or divide deep ports as Frigate ports and SOL ports, and again you must bring 50% (or more) of those type of ships.

 

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9 hours ago, Abram Svensson said:

20171101225713_1.thumb.jpg.9e4807230e9ea7d6e202022167696bc3.jpg

 

Portbattle at Camp du Roy. The french came with more than 20 players to screen us, but we just joined the PB. After a little bit these 8 gentlemen joined on attacking side.

We clearly had no chance to fight them in a brawl, so we chained them from distance and took all 3 circles. one circle was upwind so they couldnt reach it, middle circle was a fight of essex and surprise vs. 4  swedish shallow ships, so we kept that circle aswell after the big ones sailed downwind. The big ships reached the last circle at the end due to chaining. before there fought a reno and snow vs 2 rattles, one surprise and one essex.

Think the frenchies need to rethink their setup,

Edit: Wasnt fun in my eyes. Due to the French salt in Global after the Portbattle i think they didnt enjoy that aswell.

Yep...or may be you can Limit ship BR in Deep Water????Why authorise smallest ships in Deep Water Port Battle? You do this modification for the clan who are small and medium... But it don t work with very small ship... Probably if you limit ship at Niagara (or more) to 1 rate it will better work??

 

Sveridge play only run and kite sails...Was very boring for a Port Battle

 

As Abram Svensson say in his post

Sveridge decide to take only small ships (only one waza)...and french "MUST" take small ships too for a fight (they said that in their post).... We respect 1700 BR (only one Buc, 3 waza, and some frig....it s not a "heavy br" as sveridge like to say...it s the BR you authorise)....and they had 1300 or 1400 (15 ships approximatively) ... They refuse fight and play only circle...

 

Other solution may be take a circle with BR...and not with player number... may be it s can work.

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

A frigate can:

- Fast capture circle (as you said)

- Effectivly slow down enemies from distance (as you said)

- Sink mortar brigs if unprotected (as you said)

- Sink lone / heavily damaged ships if unprotected

A line ship can:

- go brawl against other line ships

..There are useful roles in my opinion (maybe not much liked, but useful)

 

Previous mono fleet battle gave equal start situations. This is the real problem! Mixed fleets are very good, but we need to equal the starting setup. That also would bring the frigate type ship a new role:

- Go into close fight with other frigate

 

A close combat only exists in equal fleet compositions. That is the problem, not the ship types lower than lineships. Just my 2 cents

Limitations on specific ships you can bring to a portbattle is a nogo in my oppinion for a sandbox game. If frigates are of no use with current BR system BR needs to be reduced until they are a valid choice.

Either way even with the possibilities I described you only need 2-3 frigates inside a 25 people battle. Slowing down enemys has not such a high value. Not for 180 BR if you can get a wasa for 250 BR already. Especially if you can capture circles with a wasa also, alsmost as fast as the frigate. However the wasa can defend the circle unlike the frigate.

 

39 minutes ago, admin said:

that is true. rattlesnake cannot do anything against a first rate and can only kite. The goal was to promote a mixed fleet. But mixed fleets don't work with current penetration mechanics.

There is an idea to take the point capture system from legends, where point cannot be captured if there is an enemy present. Then the bigger ships can just control the capture by just being there. While the main fleet focuses on destroying the enemy lowering enemy points and getting points for themselves even if they don't control any zones.  Then 3 first rates and 3 frigates can then stop capture for all three zones even against 25 lynxes 

I guess points tick less fast then aswell? Because once you lose all 3 circles it would be gameover like this.

Would be working better I guess. However atm it's full wasa meta with filling buccentaures up if you have enough BR left. In 3000 and 1700 BR ports you would just limit the experience to a few players. 

 

 

I think BR changes are very important based on calibre of gun mostly. 32 pounders can fight 1st rates. 18 pounders can barely fight 4th rates atm. This difference has to be visible in BR.

To make it simple I would give santi for example 1000 BR. From broadside weight I would say 3 Wasas equal 1 Santi (subjective, no numbers from me right now because no time right now). Ofcourse not in a 1v1 case but in a fleetbattle. BR's should be balanced for fleetbattles because that's what they are used for right?

From my perspective from a FC (based on BR when I would have a hard decicion to take specific ships, not numbers atm, very subjective)

I made the BR starting from the santi at 1000 BR to allow bigger range between the ships. 2 18 pound frigates are roughly equal 1 wasa in my oppinion in use in a fleetbattle. Right now its 180 BR and 250 BR which makes the choice very easy. Also bellona is not much better than a wasa so I chose 420 BR and 500 BR. 2 Bellonas equal 1 santi in broadside in my oppinion etc.

Like I said, not many numbers involved. I could do better with a table with HP and other values right now but it's a start. (table is a copy of navalaction wiki with changed BR values)

 

I think current BR shields are very good so formula would have to be changed but I think max BR shouldn't be 600 but 1000 to allow a bigger range between the ships

Ship Battle Rating Crew Guns Broadside Weight 
(Cannons/Carronades)
Cargo Capacity Speed Draught Rate Minimum Crafting 
Level
                   
Mortar Brig 100 120 12 36pd/108pd 212 9.92kn Shallow 6th Rate 5
                   
Cerberus 70 195 26 117pd/416pd 379 12.80kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Renommee 90 240 30 129pd/440pd 395 13.69kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Surprise 100 240 38 150pd/510pd 425 12.39kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Hermione 130 280 42 208pd/608pd 448 12.32kn Deep 5th Rate Notes
Frigate (Cherubim) 180 280 38 270pd/560pd 488 12.30kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Belle Poule 130 280 38 198pd/568pd 474 12.31kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Pirate Frigate(Cherubim) 200 300 38 306pd/560pd 472 12.41kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Essex 200 315 40 324pd/640pd 491 12.35kn Deep 5th Rate 15
Trincomalee 200 325 50 351pd/800pd 533 12.56kn Deep 5th Rate 25
Endymion 300 340 48 426pd/768pd 525 13.77kn Deep 5th Rate 25
Indefatigable 300 350 44 420pd/924pd 690 12.07kn Deep 5th Rate 25
Constitution 350 450 54 504pd/864pd 751 12.30kn Deep 4th Rate 25
Agamemnon 380 500 64 600pd/618pd 756 12.00kn Deep 4th Rate 25
Ingermanland 350 470 62 642pd/684pd 727 11.66kn Deep 4th Rate 35
Wasa 430 550 64 765pd/880pd 600 12.30kn Deep 4th Rate Notes
Wapen von Hamburg III 380 470 68 570pd/708pd 748 11.99kn Deep 4th Rate 25
3rd Rate 450 650 74 669pd/876pd 822 12.00kn Deep 3rd Rate 35
Bellona 500 650 74 865pd/1072pd 928 11.70kn Deep 3rd Rate 35
St. Pavel 750 800 82 1038pd/1230pd 1060 11.24kn Deep 2nd Rate 40
Bucentaure 800 840 88 1200pd/1560pd 1095 11.61kn Deep 2nd Rate 40
Victory 900 850 106 1296pd/1506pd 1181 10.81kn Deep 1st Rate 45
L'Ocean 950 1100 118 1365pd/1662pd 1251 10.89kn Deep 1st Rate 45
Santisima 1000 1050 138 1491pd/2052pd 1219 10.97kn Deep 1st Rate 45

 

BR values are not supposed to get implemented 1:1 but I hope you get the idea here. 18 pound frigates are way more worth in fleetbattles than 12 pound frigates. 32 pound lineships are way more worth than 24 pound 4th rates (or even 3rds) 24 pound frigates like indef and endy are way more worth than 18 pound frigates due to penetration. etc.

 

Ofcourse PB BR limits has to be changed aswell if you change BR of ships

Edited by rediii
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Made bellona bit to low. 250 more for pavel is too big of a space so all ships smaller than bellona would have to be changed aswell. Anyway you get the idea I hope.

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The problem here seems to be the circles (its capping) and the range of ships inside some PBs.

Limit shallow water ship to shallow water PBs.

Change the conditions of capping a circle.

PLEASE CHANGE the BR of some ships. Dont why devs cant see that the wasa cant have the BR of a constitution when the wasa is so vastly superior.

 

I see people losing its patience after only 3 days of testing a new feature. A feature that hasnt received yet any tweak. 

 

 

Edited by Intrepido

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We found the potential compromise that will still promote the mixed fleet, but will also remove the desire to kite in light ships

Next hot fix will be applied in a day or 2

In it we will add

  • Deep water battles will accept only cerberus and above
  • Points will not tick for captured zones if enemy is present in it. So even if you captured a zone by light ships with numbers, you will still have to push enemy away from the zones if you want those captured zones to get you points. 
  • BR limit will be somewhat increased for large ports and reduced for shallow water ports
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1 minute ago, admin said:

We found the potential compromise that will still promote the mixed fleet, but will also remove the desire to kite in light ships

Next hot fix will be applied in a day or 2

In it we will add

  • Deep water battles will accept only cerberus and above
  • Points will not tick for captured zones if enemy is present in it. So even if you captured a zone by light ships with numbers, you will still have to push enemy away from the zones if you want those captured zones to get you points. 

Please watch the grand turk pb from my perspective

We captured all 3 circles at the beginning. How are you supposed to kill or scare away everyone before you lose the battle? It will not happen

Also it had nothing to do with ships smaller than cerb. Both battles actually.

We engaged the dutch santamarta fleet with our PB fleet. You see that because we even had 2 mortar brigs in a freaking OW battle

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

We found the potential compromise that will still promote the mixed fleet, but will also remove the desire to kite in light ships

Next hot fix will be applied in a day or 2

 

What's in the patch I'm downloading right now?

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